Ninja spy rework suggestions

[Drfirewater79]

1. Touch of Death doesn't work on undead or constructs anymore because they changed it from untyped damage to negative damage, which constructs and undead are immune to; it has nothing to do with sneak attack.

Yes it has nothing to do with sneak attack ... also they mentioned that monks over all ... light and dark have more advantages then other classes against constructs and undead as is and thus they didnt see it as a big deal .. they also changed portals so that neg energy effects them.

2. Crit profile is what we trade for having the highest straight DPS in the game; 2d10 TWF with full off-hand STR bonus and ~10% faster attacks is already competitive, giving us higher multiplier (beyond what earth strikes give, and would they stack?) would be unbalanced and invite the nerf-stick, like they did to ToD.

Ah whats the base damage of a greensteel dwarven axe? 2d8 ... and what is the crit multiplier and range on a kensai dual weilding it ... hmm let me see dwarven axe damage ... fighter kensai specialization fighter specialization ... improved stacking crit range ...

sorry to say it .. but dwarven axe wielding fighters gonna do a **** ton more dps then a str build monk ... and a str bulid monk will have less ac then him too. Oh and if you dont know .. monk attack speed no longer stacks with haste ... so we dont even swing much faster since update 5 twf nerf.

3. Water-walking needs to be fixed so it works in more places, but Abbot and lava are enough, for now.

Obviously, Ninja-Spy III will have to continue the trend, so here are my predictions:

Extend critical profile or multiplier with shortswords (17-20/x3 or 16-20/x2 would not be bad)
Extra sneak attack dice (probably +4d6 for a total of 7d6)
Extra ability (fly (yea!)? hide in plain sight(meh)? shadow walk (ugh)? Displacement (hmmm)?)

I seriously think that the DPS monk ... aka the dark monk ... makes no sense to do more short sword **** since its handwraps that do the dps for monks ... not short swords... they only reason shortswords where added was so that rouge monks could have a centered spec .. .just like how they made longsword feat and bow feats so that ranger monks and palidan monks can stay centered. It has nothing to do with full monks and its full monks that need the help now.

i personally would prefer the crit multiplier over all ... cause on short swords ... no real monk will ever use it.

[Drfirewater79]

I followed those threads pretty religiously and don't recall anything of this sort. The only mention I recall seeing of Ninja Spy III was the confirmation that it wouldn't be in U7 because they were waiting to see how the ToD changes panned out.

I think a lot of dark monks took this to mean that Ninja Spy III was going to be fantastic because they were lamenting their "uselessness" with the ToD change.

However, I recall that it was demonstrated pretty clearly that, not only were dark monks competitive, but prior to the U7 rebalancing of ToD, they were #2 DPS behind only an assassin rogue with 100% sneak attack.

I wouldn't expect Ninja Spy III to be earth-shattering. I predict +1 crit range on shortswords, an additional 3d6 sneak attack and a situationally useful new ability.

You might want to read it again because he directly stated that ninja spy would be getting a work over like shintao did once they see how much the TOD change effects dark monks.

[Chai]

I think x3 is more likely then x4 .. but you bring up a good point ... if they make ninja spy III increase the crit multiplier and crit range by 1 that would make it equivilant to kensai fighters and would be great balancing ... the biggest dps issue monks have is vs raid bosses .. not mobs .. cause mobs can be stunned raid bosses cannot.

I would rather see + to crit threat -vs- + to multipliers myself. The main weakness of handwraps is they are 20 threat AND x2. Monks already have some things that increase the crit multiplier. We would then have to use both mechanics to get the best DPS out of the class -vs- say a while ago where we just built up the KI to use TOD every 15 seconds, heh.

[dkyle]

FB gets a modifier to multiplier on a 19-20 only, regardless of crit range of the weapon being used.

x3 multiplier for fists would be OP. x4 is beyond ridiculous.

A +1 or +2 crit multiplier from ninja spy would be essentially the same kind of DPS increase as FB gets. Fists only crit 19-20, at most, so there's an inherent limit to 19-20.

x3 or x4 crits for fists might be (probably are) OP, but not because of a lack of 19-20 limit.

[Kinerd]

However, I recall that it was demonstrated pretty clearly that, not only were dark monks competitive, but prior to the U7 rebalancing of ToD, they were #2 DPS behind only an assassin rogue with 100% sneak attack.

Do you have a link for this, off-hand? I've never done real monk DPS calculations because I couldn't come up with a good way to account for all the ki usage, I'd be interested to see how whoever did it.

Oh and if you dont know .. monk attack speed no longer stacks with haste ... so we dont even swing much faster since update 5 twf nerf.

It turns out that the hasted attack speed for monk unarmed is much faster than the hasted attack speed for twf, and this is essentially multiplied by the double-strike bonus from Wind stance. Monks with a haste boost attack really fast. (Pure monks not so much, obviously.)

[gurgar78]

A +1 or +2 crit multiplier from ninja spy would be essentially the same kind of DPS increase as FB gets. Fists only crit 19-20, at most, so there's an inherent limit to 19-20.

x3 or x4 crits for fists might be (probably are) OP, but not because of a lack of 19-20 limit.

Sorry, the two statements weren't intended to be linked. I was simply clarifying what Kensai and FB get since the good Doctor seemed misinformed.

[Drfirewater79]

I would rather see + to crit threat -vs- + to multipliers myself. The main weakness of handwraps is they are 20 threat AND x2. Monks already have some things that increase the crit multiplier. We would then have to use both mechanics to get the best DPS out of the class -vs- say a while ago where we just built up the KI to use TOD every 15 seconds, heh.

That is a good point ... increase the crit threat each step so that you get rapier like crit at lvl 18 rather then greataxe like crit with no umf.

this also leaves room for them to develop new handwraps for raids with x3 multiplier without things getting drastically OP ...

I think i like that idea .. .so long as its every tier rather then just two and three ... it would be nice to have a 17-20 x2 natural.

[Drfirewater79]

Do you have a link for this, off-hand? I've never done real monk DPS calculations because I couldn't come up with a good way to account for all the ki usage, I'd be interested to see how whoever did it.It turns out that the hasted attack speed for monk unarmed is much faster than the hasted attack speed for twf, and this is essentially multiplied by the double-strike bonus from Wind stance. Monks with a haste boost attack really fast. (Pure monks not so much, obviously.)

You cannot develop a class with multiclass as the premise ... the goal should be to make pure monks better and encourage people to take at least 18 levels of monk to make full use of the pre.

[Soleran]

Do you have a link for this, off-hand? I've never done real monk DPS calculations because I couldn't come up with a good way to account for all the ki usage, I'd be interested to see how whoever did it.It turns out that the hasted attack speed for monk unarmed is much faster than the hasted attack speed for twf, and this is essentially multiplied by the double-strike bonus from Wind stance. Monks with a haste boost attack really fast. (Pure monks not so much, obviously.)

Monks unarmed attack speed while around 12% faster without hastes do not even remotely make up the dps difference of rogues or fighters with their monster 40% class haste boosts, they get so far ahead on say a boss that the unarmed speed difference doesn't matter.

Monks only in wind stance get 10% doublestrike, 20 fighters get 10% doublestrike as a capstone, rogues get opportunist for somewhere around 3%.

I would like to see something done with our crit model for dps increase for the ninja pre.

[Dartwick]

What possess you players to think that monks with all the special features and saves plus the special attacks also need melee dps equal to fighters and barbs?

[Gulnar13]

What possess you players to think that monks with all the special features and saves plus the special attacks also need melee dps equal to fighters and barbs?

The fact that other class posses them while having high dps or that they are largelòy useless. Seriously, this has been explained on this forum so many times that they should sticky it.

[gurgar78]

That is a good point ... increase the crit threat each step so that you get rapier like crit at lvl 18 rather then greataxe like crit with no umf.

this also leaves room for them to develop new handwraps for raids with x3 multiplier without things getting drastically OP ...

I think i like that idea .. .so long as its every tier rather then just two and three ... it would be nice to have a 17-20 x2 natural.

Judging by the posts I frequently see you make about what you'd like dark monks to get, I don't think you have a very realistic sense of what is and what is not OP. If they came out with wraps that had a x3 multiplier, they would definitely have to be epic loot, not a raid drop. I also like how you dismiss the notion of a mere +1 or +2 to crit range, demanding nothing less than +3.

Get serious. If they improve the crit profile of handwraps at all, it'll be a +1 to crit range, just like Kensai fighters get, and it'll be at Tier III.

That is perfectly acceptable. Acceptable? It's a freakin 50% increase in the number of crits you get. That's huge. Anything more than that is going to be unbalancing, not only with regard to other classes, but especially when compared to a light path monk.

Edit: Changed 'light side monk' to 'light path monk'. This isn't Star Wars. =P

[gurgar78]

The fact that other class posses them while having high dps or that they are largelòy useless. Seriously, this has been explained on this forum so many times that they should sticky it.

It's also been explained that monks *have* high DPS, just like those other classes and that, whether or not effects can be simulated with consumables or gear is irrelevant. They're part and parcel of the monk class and nothing is free.

[Dartwick]

The fact that other class posses them while having high dps or that they are largelòy useless. Seriously, this has been explained on this forum so many times that they should sticky it.

No

Compare a 20 fighter or barb to a 20 monk.

The monk is a freaken swissarmy knife of protective features plus he has the ki attacks.


If you dont want all the saves and you dont want ki attacks then uhhh - dont play a monk?


Asking for normal fist DPS equal to a fighter makes no sense - play a fighter.

[Dartwick]

Also if you simply want a cloth wearer doing high base damage with fists this exists - 18fighter/2monk.

[Kinerd]

You cannot develop a class with multiclass as the premise ... the goal should be to make pure monks better and encourage people to take at least 18 levels of monk to make full use of the pre.

I can't develop anything, really, I'm just a customer. If pure monks were to get an(other) inherent attack speed boost it would have to be 1) capstone or 2) just as helpful to multiclasses. The developers cannot simply ignore multiclassing options when making professional decisions, people are going to use them.

Monks unarmed attack speed while around 12% faster without hastes do not even remotely make up the dps difference of rogues or fighters with their monster 40% class haste boosts, they get so far ahead on say a boss that the unarmed speed difference doesn't matter.

Monks only in wind stance get 10% doublestrike, 20 fighters get 10% doublestrike as a capstone, rogues get opportunist for somewhere around 3%.

I would like to see something done with our crit model for dps increase for the ninja pre.

As I said, "monks with a haste boost", and "pure monks not so much".