Ninja spy rework suggestions

[Drfirewater79]

Hey they said that much like shintao ninja spy would be getting some work done and prolly be seen by update 9 or 10.

i have some suggestions .. taken from ideas in other pres already.

Ninja spy are suppost to be damage dealing monks .. but most of our damage comes from mobs that can be sneak attacked (notice even tod doesnt work against many mobs that are immune to sneak attack like undead and constructs)

So i think the idea stolen from Frenzy bezerker makes the most sense.
Tier II gets +1 to the crit multiplyer while centered and only on attacks that count as a sneak attack (crits due to stun and hold or when not holding agro)
tier III gets additional +1 (for a monk this means a total of +4 with handwraps kamas quarterstaff or shortsword)

this change grants quite a bit of extra dps without tipping the scale past what a barbarian or fighter can do with greensteel and because of the "must be in stance" and "only on sneak attacks" keeps it from being over powered once we get agro.

Walk on water doesnt work in most cases and it appears to be a mote ability as its only useful in very few cases (right now only in abbot which is about the only place it works anyway)

So it needs a back up ability that works with the class style .. i figured it could use a bonus effect based on stance like jidz teka ...
while water strider is active (while not on water) fire stance gets flame aura (mobs in melee range take 1-4 fire damage and the effects of fire guard.
water stance crushing wave guard effect and crippling ability
earth stance earth grab guard and 10 physical damage added to each strike
wind stance lightning guard and auto haste

because the water strider ability lasts for a short time and costs ki to activate it and the powers dont do much damage (no more then 40 on a proc for any of them) its not overpowered for the class which generally has high ac anyway in most cases.

also for last tier which is practically empty save my suggestion for the increased crit modifier ... I suggest the ability to use wisdom modifier in place of str for weapon damage and to hit. This will let dex based monks use quarterstaffs and allow monks to use wisdom (class stat) modifier for dps allowing dps to increase and allowing monks who build for DCs to take advantage of there dedication to the monk class (18 lvls) and have it show in there dps.

This prevents the pure monk from being disadvantaged compared to the undedicated monk who only takes the 9 or 12 levels of monk for TOD and short sword proficency in stance while playing a rouge for example.

[Fecerak]

While I could agree that Ninja Spy would like a buff right now I would say that this isn't the way to go.

This would give monks more or less the best dps in the game, which is bad (the increased crit multipliers) while not really doing anything about the core issue: No damage bonuses against things with 100% fort and immunity to neg energy, because while shintao still has some stuff that applies even then, ninja spy doesn't.

[Khurse]

I'd not disagree that I'd like to see Ninja get a rework to make it comparable to the utility boost that Shintao received, but given the ease I have at stunning things, x4 crits with wraps would be insane.
(Although fun as hell )

[Kinerd]

It would be really neat if Ninja Spy became a master of invisibility/incorporeality. Perhaps at rank 2, the Ninja Spy could have all weapons treated as Ghost Touch and for 20 Ki have an Improved Shadow Fade that had the effect of Greater Invisibility and some sort of untyped bonus to Move Silent, perhaps +20. Perhaps at rank 3, a Smoke Bomb maneuver that was a guaranteed Diplomacy check on any creature that could be influenced - just the thing for today's Ninja Spy looking for a speedy exit!

Or just give them Shuriken/Dart Touch of Death. That would be vaguely pointless and neat too.

[Aerendil]

My 2cp:

- rework Hide in Plain Sight to place the character instantly into stealth, cancel all combat (if autoattack is on), and remove all aggro. Regular detection checks apply of course.
Allow Rogues to pick up HiPS as a choosable Rogue feat at their special levels (10, 13, etc.).
Grant it to Ninja Spy III.

- further improve sneak dice by +3d6 for a total of +6d6 damage at 18.
Stacks with Rogue levels of course / HE Rogue Dil / Halfling sneak damage.
(This should allow for a twin radiance shortsword Dark monk with +10 doublestrike to have viable dps; or using falling star strike with handwraps for a similar effect).

- rework Assassin I's poison use to have viable DCs that scale with level, making it a viable source of debuffing or extra damage for *all* levels.
Grant poison use to Ninja Spy III.

*edit* - oh, and allow Touch of Death to be used with shortswords. If you want to go as anime-ish and as non-core as allowing Monks to charge their weapons with "ki", which does various elemental damages, I don't see why you should restrict ToD to handwraps only.
There's no point in granting shortsword proficiency if there's little benefit in useing it.

[Dartwick]

The main thing Ninja spy needs is changes that allow to the shortswords to be competitive with unarmed.

[Soleran]

The main thing Ninja spy needs is changes that allow to the shortswords to be competitive with unarmed.

I am going to go ahead and say that's the last thing Ninja Spy needs since to make them even remotely close you would have to buff short swords to insane lvls.

When short swords are equipped you cannot use ToD, SF etc and even with GS 1d8 damage you would have to do some crazy things to make them worthwhile since you would also lose your ToD ring burst damage as well.

All I want to christmas is a x3 crit multiplier for ninja 3 and I'm pretty sure we all know thats not going to happen

[AylinIsAwesome]

If we're following the FB model, that +2 crit multiplier would only apply on a 19-20, and nothing else.

That probably wouldn't be that overpowered actually. Definitely less than Barbarians are doing now with their epic Swords of Shadow.

[Dartwick]

I am going to go ahead and say that's the last thing Ninja Spy needs since to make them even remotely close you would have to buff short swords to insane lvls.

When short swords are equipped you cannot use ToD, SF etc and even with GS 1d8 damage you would have to do some crazy things to make them worthwhile since you would also lose your ToD ring burst damage as well.

All I want to christmas is a x3 crit multiplier for ninja 3 and I'm pretty sure we all know thats not going to happen

You miss the point.

Ninja spy with fists is actually good already. Sure you might like it if it was even better but Its not really lacking. less damage than some classes, but those classes dont get all the cool monk bonuses.

Shorts swords should be improved basically to add flavor. They dont need to be as good as fists they just need to be better than they are now.

[Soleran]

You miss the point.

Ninja spy with fists is actually good already. Sure you might like it if it was even better but Its not really lacking. less damage than some classes, but those classes dont get all the cool monk bonuses.

Shorts swords should be improved basically to add flavor. They dont need to be as good as fists they just need to be better than they are now.

I get the point and making short swords flavor is not a real benefit, its flavor.

Short swords prohibit significantly the benefit of the pre at 18 regarding our other monk abilities.

[Gulnar13]

If we're following the FB model, that +2 crit multiplier would only apply on a 19-20, and nothing else.

That probably wouldn't be that overpowered actually. Definitely less than Barbarians are doing now with their epic Swords of Shadow.

It would be awesome.
Thinking about those earthx3 finishers... with a x6 crit multiplier...
... over 600 damage with a good seeker...
XQ____

[Calebro]

Hey they said that much like shintao ninja spy would be getting some work done and prolly be seen by update 9 or 10.

Link please.

I remember them saying that they were waiting on releasing Ninja Spy III because they wanted to make sure it was balanced in consideration with the new ToD mechanics.

I certainly don't remember them saying that one of the best PrE's in the game needed a buff.

[elg582]

1. Touch of Death doesn't work on undead or constructs anymore because they changed it from untyped damage to negative damage, which constructs and undead are immune to; it has nothing to do with sneak attack.

2. Crit profile is what we trade for having the highest straight DPS in the game; 2d10 TWF with full off-hand STR bonus and ~10% faster attacks is already competitive, giving us higher multiplier (beyond what earth strikes give, and would they stack?) would be unbalanced and invite the nerf-stick, like they did to ToD.

3. Water-walking needs to be fixed so it works in more places, but Abbot and lava are enough, for now.

Obviously, Ninja-Spy III will have to continue the trend, so here are my predictions:

Extend critical profile or multiplier with shortswords (17-20/x3 or 16-20/x2 would not be bad)
Extra sneak attack dice (probably +4d6 for a total of 7d6)
Extra ability (fly (yea!)? hide in plain sight(meh)? shadow walk (ugh)? Displacement (hmmm)?)

[Aerendil]

Link please.

I remember them saying that they were waiting on releasing Ninja Spy III because they wanted to make sure it was balanced in consideration with the new ToD mechanics.

I certainly don't remember them saying that one of the best PrE's in the game needed a buff.

Can't find the link (nor have the time to look, tbh), but if memory serves it was in one of the 15390157097 ToD threads, and Eladrin mentioned that due to the changes of ToD, and Shintao receiving a much-requested boost in power, Ninja Spy would most likely be revisited in the future to assess possible boosts.
I don't recall anything concrete being said. It was a "we'll review in the future" sort of vague response. But it was enough to have the dark monks salivating.

[gurgar78]

Can't find the link (nor have the time to look, tbh), but if memory serves it was in one of the 15390157097 ToD threads, and Eladrin mentioned that due to the changes of ToD, and Shintao receiving a much-requested boost in power, Ninja Spy would most likely be revisited in the future to assess possible boosts.
I don't recall anything concrete being said. It was a "we'll review in the future" sort of vague response. But it was enough to have the dark monks salivating.

I followed those threads pretty religiously and don't recall anything of this sort. The only mention I recall seeing of Ninja Spy III was the confirmation that it wouldn't be in U7 because they were waiting to see how the ToD changes panned out.

I think a lot of dark monks took this to mean that Ninja Spy III was going to be fantastic because they were lamenting their "uselessness" with the ToD change.

However, I recall that it was demonstrated pretty clearly that, not only were dark monks competitive, but prior to the U7 rebalancing of ToD, they were #2 DPS behind only an assassin rogue with 100% sneak attack.

I wouldn't expect Ninja Spy III to be earth-shattering. I predict +1 crit range on shortswords, an additional 3d6 sneak attack and a situationally useful new ability.

[dkyle]

I certainly don't remember them saying that one of the best PrE's in the game needed a buff.

1) One of the best PrEs? I guess if you think Assassin is "one of the best", I could see some comparison there. But FB and Kensai? Not even close. Personally, I'd rank it below Shintao.

2) You don't expect Ninja Spy III to make the Ninja Spy PrE better? You think the Devs decided to nerf ToD, and wait and see, to see if they need to nerf Dark Monks even more?

[Drfirewater79]

While I could agree that Ninja Spy would like a buff right now I would say that this isn't the way to go.

This would give monks more or less the best dps in the game, which is bad (the increased crit multipliers) while not really doing anything about the core issue: No damage bonuses against things with 100% fort and immunity to neg energy, because while shintao still has some stuff that applies even then, ninja spy doesn't.

Shintao has a hole in there game ... non tainted creatures are immune to most of there attacks ... the hole for ninja spy is the negitive energy immunity .... i seriously doubt they are going to change that aspect at all.

I could see a fort reduction attack like the rouges get ... but i think they gave that to rouges to encourage people to let rouges into there parties as most content doesnt require them at all. Also ... nothing will make the monks do more damage then barbarians ... who get Epic SoS .... many different types of rages making there str 70+ and increased crit multiplier.

A monk getting increased crit multiplier by 2 only makes its best crit weapon a x4 ... barbarians with there increased crt multiplier by 2 makes there best crit weapon a x6 the best damaging weapons x5.

Even with the changes Dark Monks would not be best dps in the game ... they would just be second best dps in the game ... and since Dark monks are suppost to be the dps monk ... and since in PnP monks are a top end dps class ... it only makes sense.

[Drfirewater79]

Can't find the link (nor have the time to look, tbh), but if memory serves it was in one of the 15390157097 ToD threads, and Eladrin mentioned that due to the changes of ToD, and Shintao receiving a much-requested boost in power, Ninja Spy would most likely be revisited in the future to assess possible boosts.
I don't recall anything concrete being said. It was a "we'll review in the future" sort of vague response. But it was enough to have the dark monks salivating.

I believe it was in the main ToD thread where people where comparing shintao to ninja spy after the changes.... Eladrin piped up saying that shintao smite was broken and not working with double strike and that they would be monitoring the changes to TOD to see how they can better the ninja spy pre ... and that ninja spy pre would be given some major changes like shintao did around update 10.

[Drfirewater79]

I am going to go ahead and say that's the last thing Ninja Spy needs since to make them even remotely close you would have to buff short swords to insane lvls.

When short swords are equipped you cannot use ToD, SF etc and even with GS 1d8 damage you would have to do some crazy things to make them worthwhile since you would also lose your ToD ring burst damage as well.

All I want to christmas is a x3 crit multiplier for ninja 3 and I'm pretty sure we all know thats not going to happen

I think x3 is more likely then x4 .. but you bring up a good point ... if they make ninja spy III increase the crit multiplier and crit range by 1 that would make it equivilant to kensai fighters and would be great balancing ... the biggest dps issue monks have is vs raid bosses .. not mobs .. cause mobs can be stunned raid bosses cannot.

[gurgar78]

I think x3 is more likely then x4 .. but you bring up a good point ... if they make ninja spy III increase the crit multiplier and crit range by 1 that would make it equivilant to kensai fighters and would be great balancing ... the biggest dps issue monks have is vs raid bosses .. not mobs .. cause mobs can be stunned raid bosses cannot.

Kensai III gets +1 to crit range and no modifier to multiplier. FB gets a modifier to multiplier on a 19-20 only, regardless of crit range of the weapon being used.

x3 multiplier for fists would be OP. x4 is beyond ridiculous.