Debate this.

[Emili]

Man I could have been THE MAN. Maybe I should lay on the knife.

Actually after hearing all the replies I probably should have finished.

Eric you still are "THE MAN."



Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential. - Winston Churchill

[transtemporal]

Interesting. My instinct would be to go for the first option too but I think the cleric was right, the only lesson that teaches them is that someone will pick up the slack if they aren't good enough to win themselves. Failure is a good teacher.

[Disavowed]

Eric you still are "THE MAN."



Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential. - Winston Churchill

Not even close. Not even close. But Ty.

[Lleren]

Being carried through, just teaches how to be carried through.

[Zigana]

Maybe I'm a bit selfish in my thinking, but my answer would have rested on how much I wanted the completion. If it was something I thought I could pull off, I wouldn't mind spending the extra pots to get it done. If I didn't really care and was only along for just another completion for lack of anything else going on, I probably would have let it go and tried again later. I don't think it was a teaching lesson, tbh. I think by the time people get to the shroud, they have either already been in the mode to learn at every opportunity they can, or they've decided to just pike their way through most of the game and will eventually move on to another MMO. There's not much to teach either crowd at that point. There might be a few people willing to learn/needing to learn, but what's the chance the ones that would have taken it for that were actually in your party? If they were, I think they would be just as much asking questions about what went wrong and how to fix it whether you completed or not. When I'm new to a quest and things go south, I start asking the more experienced players what happened and what should I/we have done better.

[Uska]

You guys just proved to the know-it-all talk-too-much newbs that it can't be done.

Nice job.

I would've, and have, proven to them that it is so easy that it can be done by 3 (2) competent people and that they should get their acts together and step it up.

It's not like you won't have a second chance.

No it proves you can do it if you throw money at it if people cause problems shouldnt have to use pots to do shroud not the ops fault as he the healer and the other guy did their part. If they could have done it no pots great but I wouldnt have wasted money on that leader or the others

[Lorichie]

Man I could have been THE MAN. Maybe I should lay on the knife.

Actually after hearing all the replies I probably should have finished.

I see both sides. All i can say is i remember many many many Tor runs, being on my cleric, where we should have just died, but didn't. It wasn't to prove anything, or whatnot, it was simply because we wanted to get it done.

Sure we could have started over...but the next run could have gone just as bad.

That's my only thought.

R

[Disavowed]

I see both sides. All i can say is i remember many many many Tor runs, being on my cleric, where we should have just died, but didn't. It wasn't to prove anything, or whatnot, it was simply because we wanted to get it done.

Sure we could have started over...but the next run could have gone just as bad.

That's my only thought.

R

Good to hear from you.

That's a true statement. I will add that were a core group that wanted to run and learn. None of us wanted to let the others down. We did everything we could to learn and overcome. Including trying to be properly equipped. What would you have done if it were just you and i along one other competant person out of 12?

Like you I can see both sides, but I'd like to know what you would have done if it were me you and one other. I think I already know the answer tho.

[taurean430]

In my experiences so far I'd go moreso with letting it go. I'd have thrown a d door or greater teleport and been out of there. If the party wanted to go at it again, then the discussion would come in on how to handle things when it hits the fan.

Seems like there are too many players at higher level raids that only know how to be carried to completions. They have to learn somehow, but I've been of the opinion that there are a significant number of newbies that aren't interested in learning the raids anyhow. You see some of the same players making the same errors over and over again. At least I have on any of my healing toons. You explain for them what would work out better or garner a better outcome, and they jump your case with the, "... don't tell me how to play my character..." defense.

When I started playing last year I paid a lot of attention to my failures in quests. Between reading stuff here and experimenting I learned to carry supplies and not expect everyone around me to do everything for me. But there are a lot of players that just don't appear to have an interest in getting better. They just want to skip dinner and go straight to desert, with little idea of what dessert is.

It's been almost a year and a half now, and I've met like 6 players that took help and put it to practice. That's not many at all. So, I guess it'd be more of a judgment call based on what you are dealing with at the time. In the situation you cite; I'd have done a recall/reform. With less pilon types in the group you still complete with less resources, and some will still learn from being left behind...

[ghettoGenius]

There's no true right answer here, but I think you guys did the right thing - considering you still would have had part 5 to contend with.

[DasLurch]

I would have killed him in part 4, and gotten the chance at a large. Then probably said, "We can't rez you all, and will get wiped in part 5. It was a nice try though.". Finished out and reformed. I'm just greedy though. That or I would have ported out or DDoored or something rather than eat it. Repair bills my friend

[Llewndyn]

I woulda been like "well that was a waste" while I watched your bar drop from my stone's location

Had a similar thing happen, in that it was just not my day. Get into some Vale runs on my 13 monk/ wiz (don't judge) thinking I will dominate because I had just gone through Necro IV on elite with nary a scratch, get into Devils and the first devil comes up, and after beating on him with my weakening of enfeebling wraps and seeing all the 0s I was getting he executed a jump spinning mustache flared back kick, completely eradicating not only my HP bar but my sense of self worth and pride. I have heavy fort, I had 190 HP (which is not great but for a caster and with the drawbacks I had to assume with multiclassing wiz and monk it wasn't terrible) and with false life and all that jazz I thought I was sitting pretty at a healthy 230 hp, and it made no difference. LITERALLY 3 devils crowded and melee'd me into oblivion before I could even jump out of the way.

A little sheepishly, I gracefully accept the heal thrown by the bewildered FVS as no one else had taken any discernable damage, tell them I am going to stay back and web and cloudkill and let the big boys play. Not happening. I cast web, then cloudkill, they run through it and suplex me so hard my mullet is askew when I get raised again. Long story short (too late) I die a third time when we get to the mob at the bottom of the stairs, this time in a most unheroic fashion as they had to chase me down and beat my face in. I am stunned. I knew the mission was 3 levels up, but necro on elite is 16 too and I did GREAT there. I have capped a rogue so know all about Vale quests but seriously thought a caster with a good mix of spells (grease, fireball, merfolk's, master's touch, waterbreathing) would be even better.... nope.

At this point the barb and the FVS start talking in party chat like I wasn't even there:

FVS: I am not healing him anymore, he's gimp or something.
Barb: yeah I wouldn't even pick up his stone, worthless
FVS: can't believe some people think they can pike and it's ok

and on and on... now a lot of you might be thinking I completely deserved that, and you may be right. But the way I saw it, I was TRYING to contribute, I had done everything I could think of to guarantee a successful no death venture (heavy fort, empower/heighten/maximize, tried to stay out of the way after my first death, etc.) and was still facing the brunt of their ire. Oh the reason they had time to talk? They were all soul stones too, not too far from mine. I was the second to the last to die, right before my guildy.

Maybe those guys sucked. Deity knows I have been in some TERRIBLE Shroud runs before. But IMO I still would have finished the mission, maybe they were having a bad day. Seems strange that they got through portal beating, solving the puzzles, not killing the stupid lion first, got all the way to Harry before you realized they were gimp. I would have given them the benefit of the doubt. Usually you can tell it's a bad group when the portals take MINUTES to take down.... just my 2cp.

Epilogue: Went back in with another group and dominated that mission, so not sure what happened the first time.

[Gunga]

No it proves you can do it if you throw money at it if people cause problems shouldnt have to use pots to do shroud not the ops fault as he the healer and the other guy did their part. If they could have done it no pots great but I wouldnt have wasted money on that leader or the others

Meh, not really.

Not a big chess player?

[unscythe]

I would have finished part 4, looted, given a little speech

1. Get more hp
2. Get poison immunity
3. Get heavy fort

Give them some advice before you tell them your not gonna carry them and f/o.

[Llewndyn]

Interesting. My instinct would be to go for the first option too but I think the cleric was right, the only lesson that teaches them is that someone will pick up the slack if they aren't good enough to win themselves. Failure is a good teacher.

Here's the thing: In a perfect world, people would log into DDO to learn, have fun, contribute and enjoy a great roleplaying experience, much like a loving relationship. But in real life, people log in to get away from the intellectual confines of real life, to mindlessly bash away at stuff with reckless abandon, on a FAR greater scale than you might think. They also don't WANT to learn any lessons, and you porting out only deprives you as they prolly don't care.

In almost direct contrast to what I posted previously, you are the only one who loses out in this instance. They had nothing more to lose, and therefore are less emotionally invested in a completion. I know a few times I have been hit with a fireball blast that did >400 damage a few times, and as a rogue with 396 HP full that is a dealbreaker. SHould I be "taught a lesson" by not being ressed? The few times I was taught said lesson I did not think "Well, I just learned something about gameplay, thank you Mr. Healer, I am now a better player for the knowledge you have bestowed on me", it was closer to things that should stay in your HEAD and not come out of your MOUTH. The FVS in Bring me the head of Ghola Fan comes to mind. Sometimes you have a bad day, sometimes you get in over your head, assuming every time that the reason you died is because you suck and need to learn some arbitrary lesson from a healer is no bueno IMO, and only leads to you getting on someone's list and limiting the number of people who will play with (read: tolerate) you, no matter HOW awesome you are.



It's not your job to teach them anything. I say finish the mission, raise them, offer pointers but if they ignore them, to each his own. Some people just can't be reached.

[SiliconShadow]

Happened too me, and I chose to complete, 9 dead, 2 left just me and a mellee, the mellee took the gnolls I killed harry and some gnolls, the noobs where all but after got nothing, was it worth it, HELL YEAH bragging rights just here

[Chai]

Doing a Shroud run and it goes bad in part four. Lots of noobs and a bad leader. It ends up being me and a buddy left alive as the only two melees along with one healer who know how to heal well after round one. I'm certain every other melée in there had very low hp or no fort item or both as fast as they dropped. As my buddy and I never went below half health from the mass cures being thrown by the healers. The other healer took one to the face just before the end of round one.

Anyway on to the point. After the round two I opened the trade window to give this competent healer a stack of 20 mana pots. I tell him my buddy and I will be able to take Harry down just keep us up and chug as many pots as he needs and let me know if he needs more.

He responds and says I will but why should we do this. All it's doing is enabling these guys. It let's them know that they can come to a raid with no clue and no gear and vets will just carry them thru raids. He also states the leader hasn't given a single direction and it only shows him that others will run his raids for him. The healer states we can do this but I'd rather you keep your pots and we just run it again with people that want to contribute rather than be carried thru a raid.

I thought about it for a second. My first thought was it would be cool for us to do it and show off. Then the healers words sunk in and it made more sense not to carry these guys thru just to show off. We could speed run in almost the same amount of time it would have taken to kill off Harry and get everyone up before Harry in round 5 and deal with us just 2 manning Harry again in round 5. So I took his advice and we fought until his mana bar dropped and we died then we dropped group and ran again.

What would you have done?

I don't know if there is a right or wrong choice but I'd like to see what the opinions are on the situation.

In this case scenario, these noobs will continue to be noobs. Yeah they will eventually learn themselves, but the vets here are not helping speed up that process.

Whats the problem with your healer friend making comments about "enabling them"? thats EXACTLY what you SHOULD be doing. You enable them with knowledge and the ability to earn some more ingredients. This way, you are strenghtening the PUG pool on your server so you dont run into these situations in the future. When you PUG raids in the future you have a better chance to complete with many of the same now ex-noobs.

Its also likely that if they were gimped to the point where they died to harry that quickly, that the "non noobs" in the group knew what they were dealing with well before part 4. Noobs usually dont perform brilliantly in parts 1-3 and then completely suck eggs in part 4. Chances are a little bit of leadership here may have paid off. 2-3 minutes of coaching avoids a party wipe. The slow blade penetrates the the ignorance shield.

The other option here of course is selective grouping. If you cant hang with inexperienced players, not PUGing is the only solution that will ensure you dont group with them. Joining a PUG and expecting everybody to just know whats up is an excercise in futility.

**Edit: Neg rep for this? Sounds like our red ninja doesnt like supporting educating new players, which creates a win win situation where you win by having more HQ players on your server to run PUGs with and they win by gaining knowledge the more experienced players have to offer. How could I expect otherwise in a game where people min max their forum personalities by dumping CHA for a few more points of STR? But but but....it works in the game that way, why not here?

[voodoogroves]

If you do the above, you teach them that you are a ******.

If you help them finish, then they want to learn how you did that. You saved their day...you are their hero. They want to be more like you, and they start to send you money. Then you become so rich that you buy Turbine and release Druids and 6 new epic raids in Update 9.

That's what could've happened, but you blew it.

Nearly spit my soda at the screen...

[Disavowed]

A. The cleric wasn't my buddy.
B. I only pug and have only pugged for the last 4 almost 5 years as I've never been in a guild so I definitely don't need to be schooled on what I should expect from a pug. You will find only a handful of people on all the servers combined that have as much pug time as I do.
C. I gain nothing from killing Harry other than filling my ego.
D. Yes I could see we were sucking in the first three parts but I'm not going to drop at that point

I see the points made. But I'm now of the mind frame that fighting til we died until mana ran out without using any pots was the more prudent thing to do. Why should I stay in a group I'm not leading. That has poor leadership and burn off mana pots? Then spend who knows how long finishing part four and five. When I know for certain I can throw up an lfm for a speed run.

Where if I run it I'm done in less than thirty minutes to both fill the group and run it using no resources. I can still drags a few newbies thru and teach even on a speed run. I've done that several times where when we go back to loot I teach them the different parts when we go back to get chests. I'll walk them thru where to be and not to go in part two how to solve the puzzles in three without using a solver etc.

[Gunga]

The cleric wasn't my buddy.

Sam Adams, George Henry Lett, Seibei Nakagawa, Henry Boddington, James Watney, Dr. John S. Pemberton, and Dr. Herman Muendar would all have finished the shroud without whining about using pots or now knowing the leader or any such petty squabble.

And they all would've had a good time doing it.

Just sayin'.