Debate this.

[Disavowed]

Doing a Shroud run and it goes bad in part four. Lots of noobs and a bad leader. It ends up being me and a buddy left alive as the only two melees along with one healer who know how to heal well after round one. I'm certain every other melée in there had very low hp or no fort item or both as fast as they dropped. As my buddy and I never went below half health from the mass cures being thrown by the healers. The other healer took one to the face just before the end of round one.

Anyway on to the point. After the round two I opened the trade window to give this competent healer a stack of 20 mana pots. I tell him my buddy and I will be able to take Harry down just keep us up and chug as many pots as he needs and let me know if he needs more.

He responds and says I will but why should we do this. All it's doing is enabling these guys. It let's them know that they can come to a raid with no clue and no gear and vets will just carry them thru raids. He also states the leader hasn't given a single direction and it only shows him that others will run his raids for him. The healer states we can do this but I'd rather you keep your pots and we just run it again with people that want to contribute rather than be carried thru a raid.

I thought about it for a second. My first thought was it would be cool for us to do it and show off. Then the healers words sunk in and it made more sense not to carry these guys thru just to show off. We could speed run in almost the same amount of time it would have taken to kill off Harry and get everyone up before Harry in round 5 and deal with us just 2 manning Harry again in round 5. So I took his advice and we fought until his mana bar dropped and we died then we dropped group and ran again.

What would you have done?

I don't know if there is a right or wrong choice but I'd like to see what the opinions are on the situation.

[KingOfCheese]

Both choices seem fine to me.

I would likely have completed--if for no other reason than it would be a fun run.

[Gunga]

You guys just proved to the know-it-all talk-too-much newbs that it can't be done.

Nice job.

I would've, and have, proven to them that it is so easy that it can be done by 3 (2) competent people and that they should get their acts together and step it up.

It's not like you won't have a second chance.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

I probably would have finished part 4 just to prove a point. I then would have looted and recalled out with the cleric.

No loot for the n00bs who died, lesson learned.

Sometimes tough love is the best love....all messy and butt hurt.

[seobanio]

On my healer and my arecane I only drink/use pots for helping out guildies or selfish reasons.

Never would I use a pot to get through a shroud, unless for some reason I wouldn't have time to do it for completion later (or unless I was helping guildies... but I wouldn't need to if the shroud had my guildies in it).

So I guess my answer is: who cares what they learn. I feel a teaching responsibility only to those who specifically ask for my help (I always say yes) and guildies. If you wanted to show off and complete using 20 pots, go ahead. That might be pretty fun sometimes. If you didn't feel like using the resources on a fail shroud, then that is okay too. The only real teaching I consider is I try to act in the same way I want others to act. With that in mind: One thing I will say is that I respect your decision to continue fighting until you died. Too many people, newbs/vets/inbetweens would have gotten out the second they knew the shroud was doomed. Maybe its the sportsmanship that was drilled in when I played softball as a little kid, but to me staying, fighting, and dieing is much better than recalling out.

Oh, one more time when I would use pots: If I messed up and used too much mana when I shouldn't have, I would drink a pot. But that is to cover my own screw up.

[Disavowed]

I had to drink 3 mana pots the other night in part four for that very reason. I had put down a few max empowered bb's in part three and forgot to turn off. In part four I'm like wow my mass cure lights are critting very often. Kept throwing them looking at monster numbers thinking cool. Then I notice I'm almost out of mana. I'm like how the hell did I lose my mana. That's when I see max and empower still on. I'm like, oops what a tard, I had to drink some pots to make up for being a moron.

On my healer and my arecane I only drink/use pots for helping out guildies or selfish reasons.

Never would I use a pot to get through a shroud, unless for some reason I wouldn't have time to do it for completion later (or unless I was helping guildies... but I wouldn't need to if the shroud had my guildies in it).

So I guess my answer is: who cares what they learn. I feel a teaching responsibility only to those who specifically ask for my help (I always say yes) and guildies. If you wanted to show off and complete using 20 pots, go ahead. That might be pretty fun sometimes. If you didn't feel like using the resources on a fail shroud, then that is okay too. The only real teaching I consider is I try to act in the same way I want others to act. With that in mind: One thing I will say is that I respect your decision to continue fighting until you died. Too many people, newbs/vets/inbetweens would have gotten out the second they knew the shroud was doomed. Maybe its the sportsmanship that was drilled in when I played softball as a little kid, but to me staying, fighting, and dieing is much better than recalling out.

Oh, one more time when I would use pots: If I messed up and used too much mana when I shouldn't have, I would drink a pot. But that is to cover my own screw up.

[Disavowed]

Would they actually learn anything if we'd have done it for them? Yes they would have seen it's possible but would they do what's needed to make them more competent thenext time they run it.

I do like the idea of doing part four then recalling out after looting. I think I'd have made some lists for that stunt but it wouldn't have been from anyone of any significance to hurt me in the future.

+1 for the idea.

[Missing_Minds]

Doing a Shroud run and it goes bad in part four. Lots of noobs and a bad leader. It ends up being me and a buddy left alive as the only two melees along with one healer who know how to heal well after round one.

I've been there before, but unlike you, in my case I was on my field medic (12 cleric, 7 pal, 1 fighter) two guildies on monks (1 wf, 1 human), and a pug sorc.

The rest that bit it were guidies and guild friends. Maybe.. 3 or 4 pugs.

On my healer and my arecane I only drink/use pots for helping out guildies or selfish reasons.

Because we wanted to finish, and we ourselves were curious about the challenge, I chugged a few and we went to town. (I had maybe 10 mana pots on that character. went through 7)

Had a blast doing so also. This is what would answer the question for me. How much fun would you have had in doing so?

[Renvar]

My opinion is that of those other 9 players, some want to get better and want to be able to 3 man part 4 of the Shroud. Some do not. They are OK with being carried to their large scales.

The ones that care will see your example and be energized by it. I know I would have been when I was a new player to the shroud. "That is where I want to be at. Capable of handling a stuff hits the fan situation and make it happen."

If you complete, you show them what a well played well geared toon can do. The ones that will end up being solid players will listen, ask questions, and work on improving their build and game play to be contributing members of the party.

The ones that don't care won't do anything to improve themselves. An extra large ingredient isn't going to change that one way or the other.

Either way, you aren't there to play the game for them. You are there for you. As was said before, do what feels fun and right. Enjoy the game. The new players that are worth a darn will take notice without you having to worry about it. That's part of what makes them worth a darn. The ones that aren't are not worth worrying about anyways. They will be gone soon anyways.

[Jamma]

I probably would have finished part 4 just to prove a point. I then would have looted and recalled out with the cleric.

No loot for the n00bs who died, lesson learned.

Sometimes tough love is the best love....all messy and butt hurt.

This would be an 'acceptable' viewpoint. You were spending the mana pots to effectively farm the part 4 chest.

But maybe it wasn't really a case of 'carrying' a bunch of lazy players. The first few shroud runs can be confusing. Few party leaders take the time to explain whats going on. I still remember my first shroud run. Didn't know what was going on, neither did seemingly most of the rest of the party. It was a disaster. But I learned a lot. Nobody likes dying in part 4, especially through mistakes.

Then there's the 'hero' factor. One of my favorite shroud runs was me, another monk and a bard killing Arry in part 4 after everyone else had wiped in round 1.

[Slink]

Depends on the situation.

Ive been in very sour part 2 a few times and have waited til just about everyone is dead except close friends/guildies.
After they are dead they will have all of their attention focused in your direction.
This makes it much easier to give proper instruction, leading to a better raiding future for the server.

The 2 occasions I have done so, people were very open to suggestions and had alot of questions during and after the raid.
Take advantage of that situation in the future Eric, it will only make things better in the long run.

Yah it cost me alot of pots but who cares?
There will be many more mana pots looted in the near future.

You want a better Khyber pug scene?
Make it so.

[Slink]

Man I could have been THE MAN. Maybe I should lay on the knife.

Actually after hearing all the replies I probably should have finished.

Take it easy mang...
Gunga sez:

It's not like you won't have a second chance.

And everyone knows Gunga is just always sometimes right!

[TheDearLeader]

Had a similar situation the other day.

Myself, on my KotC.

Mainly guild raid. But we do 4 Shrouds every Sunday and Wednesday, and it was the last of the day. People either run out of toons, or get bored and go run something else.

We get a healer. One. He says he can solo heal Parts 4 and 5. Since we have plenty of in-guild healers that can do this, we say "cool, sure."

We get to Part 4. Kill the trash. Get in on Arraetrikos.
Take some damage...
Take some more damage...
I'm looking at the health bars of the party. I was at around 200 of 679 HP when I realized there was going to be a problem.
Arraetrikos starts the next Meteor swarm animation. I hit my first LoH, half the melees ding in the meteor swarm, or in the two hits following it.

..yeah. Something was wrong.

We figure out pretty quickly that our single healer had DCed. He's just standing there, unmoving but also undamaged.

by the end of the first round, I think we were down to 4 people. Two of them dinged in Round 2.

The two of us still alive, myself and a Ranger in guild, managed to pull it out just as he was dropping down for Round 4. I don't often see a Round 2, more less a Round 4. It was very odd. The healer had reconnected somewhere in this time, but due to slow loading, died before he could so much as move. So Round 3 truly was a two-man.

Would it have been easier to reform? Maybe. But I think there's something to note : we all hate failure. While sometimes dying can be funny, no one gets a 12-man together strictly to see how glorious of a failure they can make it (or if they do we call this "griefing".)

So... I say complete. Although frankly, with only two melee in on the boss, I'm not sure why you gave him 20 Pots. Alternating between the Heal spell and a Heal Scroll, he probably could have handled the two of you.

[Uska]

You guys just proved to the know-it-all talk-too-much newbs that it can't be done.

Nice job.

I would've, and have, proven to them that it is so easy that it can be done by 3 (2) competent people and that they should get their acts together and step it up.

It's not like you won't have a second chance.

No it proves you can do it if you throw money at it if people cause problems shouldnt have to use pots to do shroud not the ops fault as he the healer and the other guy did their part. If they could have done it no pots great but I wouldnt have wasted money on that leader or the others

[Gunga]

No it proves you can do it if you throw money at it if people cause problems shouldnt have to use pots to do shroud not the ops fault as he the healer and the other guy did their part. If they could have done it no pots great but I wouldnt have wasted money on that leader or the others

Meh, not really.

Not a big chess player?

[unscythe]

I would have finished part 4, looted, given a little speech

1. Get more hp
2. Get poison immunity
3. Get heavy fort

Give them some advice before you tell them your not gonna carry them and f/o.

[Uska]

Meh, not really.

Not a big chess player?

No and I dont spend my money in RL or in game on idiots even if its only pixels I wouldnt bail and would try to finish but if its gonna take pots no way. not in the shroud anyways

[TipsyDrow]

Doing a Shroud run and it goes bad in part four. Lots of noobs and a bad leader. It ends up being me and a buddy left alive as the only two melees along with one healer who know how to heal well after round one. I'm certain every other melée in there had very low hp or no fort item or both as fast as they dropped. As my buddy and I never went below half health from the mass cures being thrown by the healers. The other healer took one to the face just before the end of round one.

Anyway on to the point. After the round two I opened the trade window to give this competent healer a stack of 20 mana pots. I tell him my buddy and I will be able to take Harry down just keep us up and chug as many pots as he needs and let me know if he needs more.

He responds and says I will but why should we do this. All it's doing is enabling these guys. It let's them know that they can come to a raid with no clue and no gear and vets will just carry them thru raids. He also states the leader hasn't given a single direction and it only shows him that others will run his raids for him. The healer states we can do this but I'd rather you keep your pots and we just run it again with people that want to contribute rather than be carried thru a raid.

I thought about it for a second. My first thought was it would be cool for us to do it and show off. Then the healers words sunk in and it made more sense not to carry these guys thru just to show off. We could speed run in almost the same amount of time it would have taken to kill off Harry and get everyone up before Harry in round 5 and deal with us just 2 manning Harry again in round 5. So I took his advice and we fought until his mana bar dropped and we died then we dropped group and ran again.

What would you have done?

I don't know if there is a right or wrong choice but I'd like to see what the opinions are on the situation.

The healer had the right thinking and imho yall did the right thing. I am fairly new at DDO still, have been playing since March. Thankfully I had some great *teachers* along the way who would not baby nor carry me, instead they gave something crucial...Knowledge. Often the lessons were hard ones, but hey I have never learned the easy way. Hopefully those folks in your Shroud who came ill prepared gained something far more valuable then a completion. That said I have been known to swig as many pots as is needed to get through a raid at times simply becuase I just wanna get it done,over with and back to dancing nude on some table somewhere....but...I aint right in the head.

[karnokvolrath]

Its something ive debated internally many times.

My idea is this, if YOU want it completed do what ever you want.

If your completing it just to get them though, your better served finding the few nice folks in the crew and helping them learn how to be better, its alot more time consuming then mana pots, but it helps the whole server in the end.

[transtemporal]

Interesting. My instinct would be to go for the first option too but I think the cleric was right, the only lesson that teaches them is that someone will pick up the slack if they aren't good enough to win themselves. Failure is a good teacher.