WF better as pure or 18/2 wizard?

[chak]

just find out wich is more enjoyable for you to play and that will be the better combination.

[justplayingthegame]

Its most definetly not a bad capstone, but i dont consider just +1 to dc's to be the best path to go.

well there is the +2 int as well
.

[teamghost]

Too funny! I know "better" is subjective that's why I asked for OPINIONS not people telling me to play which ever I like better...
I am looking for advice from veterans to save me pain later on

[kernal42]

Well, this is a good point... Evasion loses some of its benefit on a WF wizard, since self-healing is so easy.

The ability to casually stand in the middle of deadly traps while the barbarians cower in fear is priceless, however.

-Kernal

[Lavek]

I loved lvling up my 18/2 wf wiz rog

soloed/duoed most of the time everything till the cap

hes ench specced archmage

and then I started running amrath...I felt like **** when they saved most of my mass holds on DC35-36(and this was on normal)...probably need to gear him up more to make him work better as hes pretty much without any raid loot atm(should it?)

[Tuckley]

I certainly don't consider myself a veteran player, but I do have an opinion (for what it's worth):

Many people have mentioned that pure wiz is the way to go because of the capstone, however you don't get the capstone until the end, while many of the rogue benefits you have during much (if not all, for some of them) of the leveling process. If you take Rog1 at first level, you get a whole pile of extra skill points. Seriously... think about it - there are lots of feats that provide bonuses to skills... skill focus giving +3 to one skill and a collection of other feats giving +2 to two different skills. Taking a level of rogue at 1st level gives you an extra 24 skill points (8 base skill points x 4, vs 2 x 4) and raises your max skill cap on a slew of skills that are cross-class for a wizard. It's almost like getting the Acrobatic, Alertness, Athletic, Nimble Fingers, Stealthy and Skill Focus: UMD feats all at the same time - except that you don't have to use all your skill points on those skills if you don't want to and can use them for other skills instead. You also get extra sneak attack damage when you flank your opponents (which, with the Summon Monster line of spells, can be most of the time) which helps you survive in the lower levels and advance quickly.

It's true that you don't actually get evasion until you take your second rogue level (which many people recommend taking at level 9, so you don't delay getting FW any longer than necessary), but higher level traps are ones that start doing more damage anyway - so that's when the ability becomes more useful. Also, having ranks in open locks at really low levels (before you have ready access to knock spells/scrolls/clickys) means you can get into optional areas in quests which translates into more money and xps (for better equipment and faster leveling) even when solo.

Cartheron did make a good point that when you splash you get access to new spell levels (and wizard enhancements) 1-2 levels later - but you do get them, so you do need to weigh the benefit of having extra skills/abilities you might not get at all vs. getting other spells and abilities a bit later. Personally, I think it's worth it - but you need to decide that for yourself.

Also, as others have mentioned... if you get to level 20 and agree that the capstone is better for you - then get a +2 (or +x) heart of wood and change to pure then, when you'll actually see that benefit.

[oweieie]

Many people have mentioned that pure wiz is the way to go because of the capstone, however you don't get the capstone until the end

The end is also where, unless you're TRing, you will spend most of your play time.

while many of the rogue benefits you have during much (if not all, for some of them) of the leveling process.

At the cost of getting wizard spells later. What will get you from 7 to 9 faster, firewall or disarm traps? What will get you from 17 to 19 faster, Wail of the Banshee or disarm traps. *hint* It ain't disarm traps.

If you take Rog1 at first level, you get a whole pile of extra skill points.

There aren't enough useses for the skills in the game even for classes that aren't already getting massive numbers of bonus skills from having a high INT.

Also, as others have mentioned... if you get to level 20 and agree that the capstone is better for you - then get a +2 (or +x) heart of wood and change to pure then, when you'll actually see that benefit.

Or you can level (much) faster as a pure wizard and gimp yourself with rogue levels by spending $10 for a heart at level 20.

[Thrudh]

"Gimp your wizard" is incorrect.

An 18/2 wizard/rogue is solid. And having evasion and UMD and disarm offers nearly as much help when leveling as having your spells 2 levels earlier.

That said, I prefer pure wizard, but a wiz/rogue works very well too..

[teamghost]

For a pure wizard 32 pt build should I go 18 INT and 20 CON or lower CON a bit and use build points elsewhere? I have a 4 wiz/1 rogue with 14 STR, 18 CON, 18 INT but thinking of starting over AGAIN (lol) and going pure...
Do you WF wizards with UMD just have it for Heal/Rez scrolls? I can live without that right?

[frznvimes]

For a pure wizard 32 pt build should I go 18 INT and 20 CON or lower CON a bit and use build points elsewhere? I have a 4 wiz/1 rogue with 14 STR, 18 CON, 18 INT but thinking of starting over AGAIN (lol) and going pure...
Do you WF wizards with UMD just have it for Heal/Rez scrolls? I can live without that right?

14/8/18/18/6/6 is a good distribution. Points in strength will help your ability to melee w/ master's touch, which will save you sp.
Umd isn't as important to wf as other races because of reconstruct, so many chose to skip it.

[Tuckley]

The end is also where, unless you're TRing, you will spend most of your play time.

Right. Thus there should be plenty of time to remove unwanted rogue levels with a heart at that point to get your beloved capstone. I have no problem with this.

At the cost of getting wizard spells later. What will get you from 7 to 9 faster, firewall or disarm traps? What will get you from 17 to 19 faster, Wail of the Banshee or disarm traps. *hint* It ain't disarm traps.

One minor point - the comparison is only getting from level 7 to 8 faster, since as I suggested many players don't take the second level of Rogue until level 9 (or later) for this very reason... to get fw faster. Also, your obvious bias is showing when you only consider levels of disarm traps when making the comparison - there are other things one or more rogue levels bring to the table than just that. If that *were* the only difference, then yes, you'd be right... in both cases the spell would be better in those hypothetical/unrealistic situations. Give yourself a cookie.

There aren't enough useses for the skills in the game even for classes that aren't already getting massive numbers of bonus skills from having a high INT.

I don't suggest spending points in useless skills (and I agree there are some of those) - but even with high intelligence do you have enough points to raise your skill level in all the skills that are potentially quite useful, even when many are bought at cross-class rates (concentration, UMD, spot, search, hide, move silently, open locks, disable device...) not to mention that having a level of rogue raises your cap in those cross-class skills, meaning you can (if you wish) be significantly better at them than would be possible without that level (by 10-11 points, if I remember right).

*EDIT* Ok, I misread your quote and thought you were saying there weren't enough useless skills to spend points on - not that there weren't enough uses for skills. Even so, I think there are plenty of useful ways to use most of the skills in the game. Just because you don't happen to value some of those uses doesn't mean that there aren't others who might. Not to mention that one of the reason many skills seem useless is that in order to be effective against opponents of your level, you need to keep them more or less maxed... which is why having the level cap on so many skills raised to the class max actually *can* be a useful benefit for those skills you decide to develop.

[Phidius]

... It's true that you don't actually get evasion until you take your second rogue level (which many people recommend taking at level 9, so you don't delay getting FW any longer than necessary), but higher level traps are ones that start doing more damage anyway - so that's when the ability becomes more useful...

Traps, for the most part, are static in their placement. With a little patience, you can easily time and avoid the majority of traps.

Spells, on the other hand, are far more difficult to predict, time, and avoid.

... Also, having ranks in open locks at really low levels (before you have ready access to knock spells/scrolls/clickys) means you can get into optional areas in quests which translates into more money and xps (for better equipment and faster leveling) even when solo...

I don't care about being able to Knock the door to get more XP when I'm level 20 - I want that ability when I'm level 14-15 running Desecrated Temple of Vol!

Not to mention the occasional locked door under water where you can't cast Knock.

...Do you WF wizards with UMD just have it for Heal/Rez scrolls? I can live without that right?

That and using items/weapons that have requirements the Wiz doesn't meet (RR: Human, Dwarf, Pure Good, etc...).

Don't underestimate the ability to throw Heal scrolls in quests where you have to keep an NPC alive - makes it much easier to solo certain quests.

[ProdigalGuru]

Go Pure.

[teamghost]

Thank you, I am appreciating all of these great opinions! I guess I am just a big worry-wart waffling between pure or rogue splash...I think I am just going to keep my rogue splash and see how it works out...or maybe not Don't get me started on Archmage...I do think I will try for mm, gust, chain missiles and the arcane bolt/blasts...seems to go with the WF theme to me.

[stoolcannon]

18 wizard/ 2 rogue or 18 wizard/ 2 monk is the way to go, the capstone for wizard isnt very impressive

I am running a full enchant specced capped drow.
38 Int +2 Ship Buff = 40
Greater Spell Pen
Spell Pen III Enhancement
Archmage 5
Archmage Enchant II

Total mass hold DC= 39 I am not including the House P +1 to enchants because it does not increase the DC in the description. I have not yet heard if this is a visual bug or a real bug.

In epics my holds land probably 80% or better with a 39 DC. If I die, and drop to 38 I see a significant decrease in how often I land spells and how quickly mobs save on holds that do land. If I were to take a -1 DC out the gate it would be even worse. That costs a ton of SP for recasts and reduces overall DPS while I try to get mobs under control.

That 1 DC makes a big difference.

I'm not saying that a spash isn't awesome, because clearly it is. Just don't assume that the wizard capstone of a +1 across the board isn't a fantastic capstone, because it is. There's not a single item in the game that I can think of that increases the DC's of all spells by all levels and Wizard's get it by default. To get level 9 spell focus on even a single item usually requires a significant amount of grinding.

[Phidius]

... There's not a single item in the game that I can think of that increases the DC's of all spells by all levels and Wizard's get it by default. To get level 9 spell focus on even a single item usually requires a significant amount of grinding.

The Stormreaver's Napkin increases the DC of all your spells by one, but doesn't stack with other items that boost your DCs. Of course, both pure and splash can use the napkin.

Also, items that boost your DCs for level 1 Enchantment spells also boost the DCs for your level 9 Enchantment spells. You're probably thinking of potency, which is based on spell level.

[stoolcannon]

The Stormreaver's Napkin increases the DC of all your spells by one, but doesn't stack with other items that boost your DCs. Of course, both pure and splash can use the napkin.

Also, items that boost your DCs for level 1 Enchantment spells also boost the DCs for your level 9 Enchantment spells. You're probably thinking of potency, which is based on spell level.

Was thinking of spell pen when I wrote that. But thanks for reminding me of the napkin. I've been trying to get one of those.

[voodoogroves]

I think both can be fun, but you have to get real honest about what your capabilities will be.

I've tried all kinds. Right now I've got 4 (?) wizards in various configurations as "test" subjects on a few different servers each in the mid-levels - and one capped at 20. Rog2/Wiz-rest, Wiz-pure, Monk2/Rog1/Wiz rest, Fighter2/Wiz rest, etc. etc. even a FVS1/Wiz-rest.

My capped primary started Rogue1/Wiz ... and as I leveled I never found a good time to take that 2nd rogue. It's handy, but ultimately for him I discovered I was trying to do too much.

Now I'm testing out all these different options - and while they are all incredibly similar, they play very very very differently.


Consider, Wiz 20 w/ Enchant and Necro feats. Pale Master. INT maxed and all level ups. CON second, DEX third running a stealth / shadowmage build. Consider the exact same feats and INT, only STR instead of DEX and a different skill set ... and a different gear set. One is going to be in-your face and will be optimized that way - the other will be more stealthy. If the STR-high one tried to stealth, he wouldn't do as well as the DEX high one.

Neither of them is stronger or weaker than the other in a general sense. Both are stronger in some areas and weaker in others.





Rog2/wiz18 isn't stronger or weaker than wiz20. It will be able to do some things that the wiz20 can't, and the wiz 20 will be stronger in other areas. Which one you can bend to your own playstyle and have the must fun and enjoy the most success is something you'll have to figure out as time goes by.

So do what I do. Run one of each ;-)

[sirgog]

Wiz18/Rog1 is the best for levelling (last level in anything). +15% XP in a fair few quests is just awesome, and you don't need to PUG a rogue to get them (50% or more of PUG rogues suck at all levels, much higher rate of fail than any other class IMO, and most of those will cost you 10% XP)

Still at cap, nothing beats the +1 DC and cheaper Heighten of being pure.

[Ninety0ne]

From a levelling standpoint exactly what above said. +15% from traps and the hassle of finding a trap man removed means you can level faster. Your very low level stuff access to rogue haste boost is gold. Combine that with haste bulls and a carnifex and you are a solid melee till firewall time. Id recommend a lr at 15 wiz 2 rogue if you are on anything other than your first life, on your first life you will hit 17/2 fast enough not to sweat it.
from personal experience im levelling a /2 rogue faster on the third life than I leveled as pure on the second.