17/3 Clonk STR Based?

[Anthios888]

DO you really need FoL when you have radiant Aura?

Do you really think that radiant aura covers all healing needs? I mean, healing sparkles are cool... but it's kind of ridiculous to say that anyone would have their healing needs met simply by the aura.

As difficult as the OP's goals are to gel together in a versatile build, the idea behind it is really neat: applying as much passive solo/party healing as possible to stay in combat longer. Fists of light, radiant aura, curse of healing, healing amplification. I can sure understand why he would want these things. The concept would be even better as a party build than a solo build, since the heals would benefit more people for their cost in terms of other routes he could go.

The problem, as I have said in other posts, is the cost to the build as a whole to fit together these gimmicks.

[DrNuegebauer]

Having done the Longsword thing can I beg with you NOT TO DO IT!

It's a complete waste of 2 feats. (3 if you take OTWF as well).

You're better off spending one of the feats on Khopesh and fighting uncentered in group scenarios, and resolving to punch things when soloing.

I did a 12 cler 6 monk (2 fighter), str based human. It's a great fun toon to solo with, and you have unlimited self-healing, but the DPS is just no good. I find I do far more damage punching things - it's quicker and full off-hand str bonus makes SO MUCH difference that it's just not funny...


And to make it clear: the 4 feats you simply MUST have (from a cleric front) are Quicken, Empower Heal, Maximize and Extend. You want want want your BB to be strong, it makes devil bashing so much easier/ quicker.
You should get 10 feats as a human, take those 4, plus 3xTWF line, power attack, IC bludg, toughness.

Just to reiterate, longswords are in no way worth wasting your time over!! Oh - and having done it, fists of light is definitely worth it - even the short term buffs are useful - using the SP cost reduction for raid healing scenarios is great!

[Therigar]

Calling me names is really uncalled for.

My comment had nothing to do with mass heal -- something I believe anyone can live without, but about quicken. Even at 16, quicken was an essential feat for any cleric. After about level 12-15, when damage begins to interrupt casting, not having quickened heal is simply a liability.

I feel it is wrong to instruct the OP to play a battlecleric that can never reliably throw a blade barrier or heal spell on himself without worry that it will be interrupted. A soloing battlecleric will always have the aggro and needs to be able to heal himself. Situations with packs of monsters when you most need to heal or die are the same situations that you cannot heal without quicken. You might as well just play a monk with UMD.

A good cleric can certainly turn off quicken in some situations - such as when you are standing out of melee range of a boss and healing a party - but that's not what the OP wants to spend all of his time doing.

I didn't call you names. Noting that claims of never being able to succeed at spell casting are fear mongering isn't name calling. It is, however, an accurate description of the inaccuracy of such claims.

Of course, having played a battlecleric that is fully able to fight, maybe I fail to see the importance of using spell points to kill things. And, having spent a lot of time on characters that can solo pretty big chunks of the game maybe I have trouble understanding exactly how often some people end up in the peril you suggest.

On the other hand, having been in the midst of many fights and not experiencing the problems that you note might also contribute to my disdain for your fear tactics. It isn't to say that spells have not occassionally been interrupted. But it is to say that it occurs so infrequently that it does not justify -- in and of itself -- the use of Quicken.

Taking note of all of that, though, only reinforces my original point. Quicken is taken primarily because it prevents spell interruption and the increased casting speed is a secondary benefit. Both can be rendered unneeded by shifts in how the character is played.

You see, my solution to a pack of Orthons is to beat them to death -- not to cast a spell and kite them until they die. So, I don't really need quicken for those situations where there are lots of mobs and just poor little old me.

And, my solution to the need for massive healing isn't Mass Heal. Other than noting that it is overhealing in many cases the other thing of importance is that outside of Epic content -- which, BTW, is not the content OP is building for -- there is no quest that I know of where spammed Mass Heal is needed for success. Quite the contrary, relying on spammed Mass Heal is a tool for power players who are pushing speed. It is the type of play that has little relationship to the kind of game OP stated they were building for.

[grodon9999]

Do you really think that radiant aura covers all healing needs? I mean, healing sparkles are cool... but it's kind of ridiculous to say that anyone would have their healing needs met simply by the aura.

Not all but it covers a hell of a lot including two clerics not needing to cast a single spell in VoD untill the second wave of Orthons. I did an Epic Tide Turns last week were RS aura was all that was needed on the boss fight, it does cover a lot.

Stupid math question, does FoL heal as much over time as non-crit radiant aura? I simply don't know.

The problem, as I have said in other posts, is the cost to the build as a whole to fit together these gimmicks.

Hence my question, if one or two of the gimmicks simply isn't needed he can make a stronger yet versatile build by cutting out something redundant.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

So let me start off by thanking everyone who took the time to respond!

Ok so a word about kopeshes: I want to stay centered, to be able to switch between wis stance for offensive casting and str stance for melee and ki. While I fully understand kopesh is in every way a superior weapon, it simply is not an option for my build/playstyle. I enjoy a HIGHLY active play style. If I am not constantly doing something I wondering why I am not just playing WoW :P

I think Anthios really understands what I am aiming for with the build, as indicated by her most recent post.

A note about my goals I do plan on mostly solo and casual play with this, but when I group I do want to be effective at my anticipated role, i.e. healing. So if quicken is considered universally needed I would rather give up GTWF and pick that up and have lower dps than to suck more at my "main" job, i.e. clericing.

That said. I do not believe toughness is optional. Soloing, casual, or end game I believe it is a necessity on all builds. I play PD so I am a huge believer in HP, lol.

Also people have commented on empower vs. maximize. Let me simply state, even though it has been said, that empower is NOT optional - it is REQUIRED for Radiant Servant, and RS is too valuable to give up.

Also I think that Maximize would give me more dps than GTWF just from having a maximized BB, am I incorrect in this assumption?


Next: race.

I went human, used the bonus feat on longswords. Why human and not elf? Healing Amp. Human amp + monk amp is like what, +40%? Significant enough that when coupled with FoL and RS aura I will rarely need to actually cast heals on myself, when soloing - which mean more BBs.

Next, why FoL? As Anthios has observed, having FoL is much more than just having FoL. I can Dance before I buff myself and the party, I can use the earth dragon buff if I happen to PUG, I can blur myself and my party, and If I am having trouble hitting I can use the flame buff, and in addition to that I greatly reduce the amountof SP I need to spend healing during trash encounters, leaving me with more SP to back out of melee and heal with in the big fights. FoL completely changes the playstyle of the build, so much so that I almost don't think 18/2 builds ARE clonks, they are Clonk wannabes.

For me the question in the thread is not:

"should I take 3 levels of monk?"

it instead should be:

"are longswords ENOUGH better than handwraps to warrant spending these feats on?"


quicken
empower healing

toughness
power attack

2wf
i2wf
g2wf

martial weapon proficiency: longsword
weapon focus: slashing
whirling steel strike


So I guess my question now is:

Is my dps going to be better:

1. Using longswords with the above feat list.
2. Using longswords but dropping GTWF for Maximize (BB)
3. Dropping Longswords, using handwraps, and picking up Maximize.

Also am I giving up too much of my Cleric-ness by not keeping Maximize?


Thanks again for taking the time to answer so far, hopefully this post will clear up any confusion as to what my goals are, and what is important to me out of the build. Thanks!

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Do you really think that radiant aura covers all healing needs? I mean, healing sparkles are cool... but it's kind of ridiculous to say that anyone would have their healing needs met simply by the aura.

As difficult as the OP's goals are to gel together in a versatile build, the idea behind it is really neat: applying as much passive solo/party healing as possible to stay in combat longer. Fists of light, radiant aura, curse of healing, healing amplification. I can sure understand why he would want these things. The concept would be even better as a party build than a solo build, since the heals would benefit more people for their cost in terms of other routes he could go.

The problem, as I have said in other posts, is the cost to the build as a whole to fit together these gimmicks.

This is the quote I was referring to.

[Therigar]

Having done the Longsword thing can I beg with you NOT TO DO IT!

It's a complete waste of 2 feats. (3 if you take OTWF as well).

You're better off spending one of the feats on Khopesh and fighting uncentered in group scenarios, and resolving to punch things when soloing.

I did a 12 cler 6 monk (2 fighter), str based human. It's a great fun toon to solo with, and you have unlimited self-healing, but the DPS is just no good. I find I do far more damage punching things - it's quicker and full off-hand str bonus makes SO MUCH difference that it's just not funny...


And to make it clear: the 4 feats you simply MUST have (from a cleric front) are Quicken, Empower Heal, Maximize and Extend. You want want want your BB to be strong, it makes devil bashing so much easier/ quicker.
You should get 10 feats as a human, take those 4, plus 3xTWF line, power attack, IC bludg, toughness.

Just to reiterate, longswords are in no way worth wasting your time over!! Oh - and having done it, fists of light is definitely worth it - even the short term buffs are useful - using the SP cost reduction for raid healing scenarios is great!

This is actually the best advice thus far and reflects experience with the longsword build.

I would add a couple of points.

First, you really need help in the handwrap department dealing with Harry and his ilk. While it does not hurt you to fight uncentered it does knock you out of any stance you might be in. With only 3 monk levels that is pretty trivial but it is still worth noting.

Second, while Light offers a lot of nice stuff going Dark with Ninja Spy grants short sword as a feat. Taking NS II increases the crit range for short swords as well. This lets you remain centered.

Third, depending on your thinking regarding stat distribution you could choose to go with high DEX and high WIS getting a pretty good AC. This will be useful if you solo a lot and isn't too bad in group play either. Both handwraps and short swords are finesse weapons. Although it hasn't been discussed one issue with battleclerics of any type is the to hit number. While the assumption is that you'll always cast Divine Power for full BAB you'll still want to boost BAB with either your STR or DEX bonus. Freeing a feat for Weapon Finesse isn't always a bad thing.

Fourth, saying that you could just spend a feat for khopesh and dual wield uncentered ignores the penalties to hit caused by weapon size. If you don't have sufficient STR to dual wield (and this will be true for longsword as well) and overcome the to hit penalties then higher damage profiles or better crit numbers won't matter. If you are not hitting then you might as well not be meleeing.

Keep in mind that when soloing your biggest need is to be able to kill mobs faster than they can heal or regenerate. Usually this can be done with vorpal weapons, but not always. So you cannot completely ignore STR unless you have elemental weapons of the appropriate bane type. Also remember that on higher content your Blade Barrier may be largely ineffective as the same mobs that will ignore your vorpal and regenerate/heal will also probably save vs your BB. In group play this isn't usually a problem because others will be helping out -- but soloing it is an issue.

Building a character that can fight its way thru most encounters using appropriate weapons will go a long way to solving most of your challenges.

[Anthios888]

"are longswords ENOUGH better than handwraps to warrant spending these feats on?"

quicken
empower healing

toughness
power attack

2wf
i2wf
g2wf

martial weapon proficiency: longsword
weapon focus: slashing
whirling steel strike


So I guess my question now is:

Is my dps going to be better:

1. Using longswords with the above feat list.
2. Using longswords but dropping GTWF for Maximize (BB)
3. Dropping Longswords, using handwraps, and picking up Maximize.

Also am I giving up too much of my Cleric-ness by not keeping Maximize?


Thanks again for taking the time to answer so far, hopefully this post will clear up any confusion as to what my goals are, and what is important to me out of the build. Thanks!

I vote go with the wraps. You're not only giving up greater two weapon fighting, you're giving up improved critical -- something that benefits longswords a lot. You're not going to be rocking the min IIs at level 12... you need all the help you can get. Even if you were, you'll want to use any smiting, bursting, or other on-crit effects you pick up along the way. I'ts like you're going with longswords, but nuking the things that make them good (better crits, increased attack speed from wind stance)

I can see going without improved critical on handwraps as a last resort. And, handwraps give you +4 to-hit, since you will not be taking two weapon or offhand penalties. If you make it into endgame, the bursting rings will push the DPS even higher.

The cool thing is that any strengt-based cleric with 2wf can put on longswords and use them, but just not be centered. So you can still use them any time you are not needing the punches, or if you want to fight zombies or something.

(10 feats)
toughness
2wf
i2wf
g2wf
power attack
quicken
empower healing
maximize
improved critical: bludgeoning or slashing (play with this how you want - extend is another good choice)
1 free feat -- you can even consider another race, or take extend for playability

[Talltale-Storyteller]

This is actually the best advice thus far and reflects experience with the longsword build.

I would add a couple of points.

First, you really need help in the handwrap department dealing with Harry and his ilk. While it does not hurt you to fight uncentered it does knock you out of any stance you might be in. With only 3 monk levels that is pretty trivial but it is still worth noting.

Second, while Light offers a lot of nice stuff going Dark with Ninja Spy grants short sword as a feat. Taking NS II increases the crit range for short swords as well. This lets you remain centered.

Third, depending on your thinking regarding stat distribution you could choose to go with high DEX and high WIS getting a pretty good AC. This will be useful if you solo a lot and isn't too bad in group play either. Both handwraps and short swords are finesse weapons. Although it hasn't been discussed one issue with battleclerics of any type is the to hit number. While the assumption is that you'll always cast Divine Power for full BAB you'll still want to boost BAB with either your STR or DEX bonus. Freeing a feat for Weapon Finesse isn't always a bad thing.

I agree with point 1 entirely.

2. NS requires 6 levels of monk, and NS2 12. I already have a dark monk, and while I love him ( he was actually a respecced version of Anthios' Rockan Robin!) I want this toon to be primarily a cleric.

3. I am probably going to do this if for whatever reason I decide longswords simply is not an option. Longswords are not finessable tis the only thing, and I like the dps of a str build, also..... being in fire stance will grantly increase my ability to use those mini heals and buffs. I would prefer to stay str based, ALSO the Jidz -tekh bracers give + healing amp in fire stance.

[Therigar]

Following the thread I realize that you are not looking for a mostly monk. Comments on Ninja Spy only meant to focus discussion on alternatives to handwraps.

Keep in mind that I do have a low STR battlecleric over on Cannith (although he hasn't seen much play since I jumped over to Orien). I took a different route from you with the multiclass choices. If the issue of feats is significant you might want to consider whether you really want that 17th Cleric level. A single Fighter level will get you full martial proficiency (saves the longsword feat) and an additional feat (useful for TWF as an example or IC:Slash). If you can live w/o the Mass Heal this may be the way out of your difficulties.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Following the thread I realize that you are not looking for a mostly monk. Comments on Ninja Spy only meant to focus discussion on alternatives to handwraps.

Keep in mind that I do have a low STR battlecleric over on Cannith (although he hasn't seen much play since I jumped over to Orien). I took a different route from you with the multiclass choices. If the issue of feats is significant you might want to consider whether you really want that 17th Cleric level. A single Fighter level will get you full martial proficiency (saves the longsword feat) and an additional feat (useful for TWF as an example or IC:Slash). If you can live w/o the Mass Heal this may be the way out of your difficulties.

I kinda like the idea of the fighter level, actually...

Not sure if I should give up mass heal though... I have not spent alot of time playing a healer, so not sure how necessary it is. If I group at cap, I will probably be pugging or (hopefully!) running shortman groups when I am not soloing. Seems like Mass heal is like a nuclear warhead... you may never need it, but it is conforting to know you have it.

[Cartheron]

"are longswords ENOUGH better than handwraps to warrant spending these feats on?"

Because of full str bonus on offhand, faster attack sequence and ToD rings HW are actually better dps than longsword. They are more gear dependant, but longsword is a very weak weapon in DDO, while unarmed is one of the bests. Like previous posters said, if you like the look of 2 longswords or just do it for fun, go for it. If you look for dps, go for HW.

Having 17 levels of cleric and all important caster feats will let you go inside every raid in game, so aquiring all important for unarmed toys is only matter of time (with maybe exception of +5 holy of greater *insert name* bane )

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Because of full str bonus on offhand, faster attack sequence and ToD rings HW are actually better dps than longsword. They are more gear dependant, but longsword is a very weak weapon in DDO, while unarmed is one of the bests. Like previous posters said, if you like the look of 2 longswords or just do it for fun, go for it. If you look for dps, go for HW.

Having 17 levels of cleric and all important caster feats will let you go inside every raid in game, so aquiring all important for unarmed toys is only matter of time (with maybe exception of +5 holy of greater *insert name* bane )

Keep in mind I do not expect I will be raiding. I'm not super into doing endgame stuff, for various reasons. I have no doubt that Handwraps are better than longswords with sufficient end game raiding. But my question is, will that hold true for a casual player and soloer as well?

[voxson5]

quicken
maximize or empower healing

toughness
power attack
improved critical

2wf
i2wf
g2wf

martial weapon proficiency: longsword
weapon focus: slashing
whirling steel strike

-----------------------
11 feats. This build gets 10 if it is a human, 9 if it is an elf. Giving up any of these things will significantly weaken the functionality of your build.

How about a compromise then? (because that seems to be the only way)

Half-elf - dialentte fighter (removes the need for martial weapon prof feat)

empower healing
toughness
power attack
2wf
i2wf
g2wf
weapon focus: slashing
whirling steel strike
Improve crit: Slashing - swap for Quicken once you get min II's / nice keen blades

Thats 9 feats; you keep quicken (eventually), you keep FoL, you keep lv17 cleric

Do you really need to boost mass heal with maximise if you are a casual player? (what does mass heal do at lv 17 with all expected enhancements etc? 500+ hps?)

Do you really need to maximize BB? you have 17 levels of cleric so it lasts for a while, & with nice striders you can easily kite mobs to death... just may take a bit of time.

2 x blades vs. wraps
-two different effects on weapons (especially good w/GS)
-no OTWF = -4 to hit both sides
-only interruption to finishers comes from activating the finisher
-obvious benefits of being centered (ki generation in fire/doublestrike & +speed in wind etc)
-1/2 str to off-hand

-wraps are -2 to hit arn't they (counted as light 2wf)? i'll have to test & find out for you

I believe that situationally, wraps maybe better (vs. undead with endless night wraps etc), but... paralyzer & vorpal anyone? (plus many other combinations)

Yeah, lots of data that has already been expressed, sorry if all i've done is just repeat what others have already voiced

[Jakarr]

10 feats

WS
Focus Slash

Toughness
Power Attack

2wf
i2wf

Quicken
EmpHeal
Extend
Max

Reasoning is you can grab Improve Crit from MinII, Extend is great for the low dur buffs and BB, Max is for BB.

So you can stay Centered Melee very well have all that great extra healing and still have a great BB for when you solo/zerg etc.

Impaqt made a very good argument for dropping g2wf on his Longsword FvS, but if ya really want it I'd drop extend and grab it, but 20% or a longer dur BB and short buffs(not to mention I'm not to sure if it extends your aura).


Ma 2 cents though I might give this build a try looks very fun

[Talltale-Storyteller]

How about a compromise then? (because that seems to be the only way)

Half-elf - dialentte fighter (removes the need for martial weapon prof feat)

empower healing
toughness
power attack
2wf
i2wf
g2wf
weapon focus: slashing
whirling steel strike
Improve crit: Slashing - swap for Quicken once you get min II's / nice keen blades

Thats 9 feats; you keep quicken (eventually), you keep FoL, you keep lv17 cleric

Do you really need to boost mass heal with maximise if you are a casual player? (what does mass heal do at lv 17 with all expected enhancements etc? 500+ hps?)

Do you really need to maximize BB? you have 17 levels of cleric so it lasts for a while, & with nice striders you can easily kite mobs to death... just may take a bit of time.

2 x blades vs. wraps
-two different effects on weapons (especially good w/GS)
-no OTWF = -4 to hit both sides
-only interruption to finishers comes from activating the finisher
-obvious benefits of being centered (ki generation in fire/doublestrike & +speed in wind etc)
-1/2 str to off-hand

-wraps are -2 to hit arn't they (counted as light 2wf)? i'll have to test & find out for you

I believe that situationally, wraps maybe better (vs. undead with endless night wraps etc), but... paralyzer & vorpal anyone? (plus many other combinations)

Yeah, lots of data that has already been expressed, sorry if all i've done is just repeat what others have already voiced

Taking the half-elf dil is basically the equivalent of spending my free human feat on longswords.

I do get a penalty to hit for DW longswords, but i also get a +2 to hit, one from the faith tenet, and another from weapon focus - that evens it out a *little.

The other benefit of two longswords.... is that handwraps NEVER have caster enhancements! lol with the exception of Devotion I do not think I have ever seen even one on my monk. So that means that I am at a disadvantage if I go into caster mode (i.e. -2 wis from losing water stance.) right? I mean what do other handwrap using clonks do as far as gear?

[Junts]

This is pure fear mongering. We did fine with packs of Orthons and with party mass healing when we were stuck at L16 level cap and Mass Heal wasn't even available.

Quicken and Mass Heal are easy buttons. There are alternatives. But, more importantly, the conditions you speculate about might not apply to OP. See my reply to Sirgog. You worry about situations that may apply to a number of players but that might not be in OP's parameters at all.

Quicken, however, was available and everyone with a brain took the feat.

Mass heal is not a big deal. Quicken spell is necessary to use blade barrier and to not die.

Not taking quicken spell is incredibly stupid.

[AtomicMew]

This may be a noob question, but why not just use kamas? Are handwraps really better than kamas with only 3 monk levels?

[Junts]

This may be a noob question, but why not just use kamas? Are handwraps really better than kamas with only 3 monk levels?

Yes

[DrNuegebauer]

Keep in mind I do not expect I will be raiding. I'm not super into doing endgame stuff, for various reasons. I have no doubt that Handwraps are better than longswords with sufficient end game raiding. But my question is, will that hold true for a casual player and soloer as well?

If you're not raiding, then there is no debate. HANDWRAPS!!!!

The *only* downside to the wraps is that getting a devil-boss-beater can prove troublesome.

The plus is that you can just step out and be the healer for said raids.