Manyshot as a Double Strike Bonus

[Benjai]

You don't need anymore DPS. You SHOULD be at the lowest end of the DPS pool. It's the trade-off for DPSing outside of melee range, where you avoid a vast majority of the damage.

So the advantage of range should be what exactly? Since they're supposed to do inferior damage yet have inferior defenses why should they be played again? If a melee is running with an intimitank or with CC and himself is in no real danger of getting hit should he then get a damage debuff since he's not in danger? There's a reason why tanks in other games don't do as much damage because if a class has superior damage AND defense then it invalidates everything else. Is that what your suggesting happen here? If your concerned about things like kiting then there are simple solutions like putting a snare on manyshot or giving bosses an undispellable and un-FoMable snare.

[mediocresurgeon]

The main complaint about why ranged damage sucks in this game is because of its rate of fire. (Can you imagine how goofy the animation would look if the archers fired as fast as other characters swing a sword?)

I like the OP's suggestion. It would lower ranged spike damage, but give better DPS overall for archer builds. It might actually make them effective for the first time in 4 years.

If your concerned about things like kiting then there are simple solutions like putting a snare on manyshot or giving bosses an undispellable and un-FoMable snare.

Like the chains Suulomades uses?

[supp3nhuhn]

As has been stated time and time again over the last 4+ years, make manyshot into a stance. To expand that further make it 3 different selectable stances based on BaB (2 arrows, 3 arrows, 4 arrows) and put some negatives on it.

To add in Coldins idea a bit about the double strike ability make a percentage based on the stance you select.

Manyshot 1: While in this stance you fire 2 arrows at -2 to hit, grants a 2% chance of double strike, and a 30% reduction in movement speed.

Manyshot 2: While in this stance you fire 3 arrows at a -4 to hit, grants a 3% chance of double strike, and a 40% reduction in movement speed.

Manyshot 3: While in this stance you fire 4 arrows at a -6 to hit, grants a 4% chance of double strike, and a 50% reduction in movement speed.

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting 3 seperate feats, but 3 stances from the single feat based on BaB like the amount of arrows fired currently is based off BaB. This would allow the player to select how many arrows they fired in their manyshot stance.

Completely overpowered.

[Shyver]

Completely overpowered.

Care to elaborate on that well thought out counterpoint? What about it is overpowered, what would you do to balance it?

[Angelus_dead]

Care to elaborate on that well thought out counterpoint? What about it is overpowered

Granting an indefinite quadrulpling of attack rate in exchange for -6 attack would be incredibly excessive damage output. The reduction in movement speed doesn't stop it from being absurdly high damage.

[Shyver]

Granting an indefinite quadrulpling of attack rate in exchange for -6 attack would be incredibly excessive damage output. The reduction in movement speed doesn't stop it from being absurdly high damage.

Then what would you do to balance it out? Increase the negative to hit or the movement reduction? Make it a 1 min clicky with a cooldown like's been suggested once in this thread?

Simply saying something is overpowered without offering a suggestion to make it better isn't helpful to a conversation. Neither is simply saying "overhaul the ranged combat", we all know that's not going to happen anytime soon. So any suggestions to help put a bandaid on the problem is worth discussing.

[Angelus_dead]

Then what would you do to balance it out?

Balance that suggestion? I wouldn't do that.

Balance Manyshot? I'd only try to do that if ranged combat was first fixed in general, so the approach to improve Manyshot would have to be based on the unknown new game rules.

However, the main things I'd want to do to Manyshot:
1. Reduce or eliminate the scaling up from BAB advancement. If 200% damage is acceptable at level 8, then 400% is overpowered at level 18. Maybe leave it as 2x.
2. Change Manyshot from 20 sec with 120 cooldown to two charges of 10 sec, with charges regenerating every 60 seconds.
3. Allow different special ranged attacks (Pin, Hamstring, Sunder) to consume those same charges.

Simply saying something is overpowered without offering a suggestion to make it better isn't helpful to a conversation.

Unfortunately, this forum has rules that inhibit productive discussion. It is highly likely that a longer explanation would have risked violating some of the rules. (Speculating on the possible motivation of other people)

[Benjai]

Hit is a really poor counterbalance. Either the penalty doesn't matter because you have enough or the hit penalty is significant enough that it really reduces whatever benefit you want.

Noone ever said manyshot needs to retain its 3 arrow bonus. Why not reduce it to 1 or 2 extra while adding in the movement debuff?

[Coldin]

Unfortunately, this forum has rules that inhibit productive discussion. It is highly likely that a longer explanation would have risked violating some of the rules. (Speculating on the possible motivation of other people)

Besides being polite, not discussing specific exploits, or anything under NDA, what rules prevent any productive discussion?

[Angelus_dead]

Besides being polite, not discussing specific exploits, or anything under NDA

The last time I checked those things weren't covered by forum rules. (The bit about exploits is something that I had thought was there, but it seemed to have vanished)

what rules prevent any productive discussion?

My statement was "inhibit productive discussion", which is not the same thing as "prohibit any productive discussion".

As to what rules can inhibit productive discussion- it would also be a violation to tell you which rule.

[supp3nhuhn]

Care to elaborate on that well thought out counterpoint? What about it is overpowered, what would you do to balance it?

Not after you neg repped me, no.
Don't expect well thought out counterpoints if you don't present well thought out points.

[mediocresurgeon]

As to what rules can inhibit productive discussion- it would also be a violation to tell you which rule.

PM me which rule this is, please. I've heard you hide behind this before and I'm interested in knowing.

[Shyver]

Not after you neg repped me, no.
Don't expect well thought out counterpoints if you don't present well thought out points.

I didn't neg rep you, I don't have enough rep to do so. And besides I wouldn't have since you didn't say anything worth neg repping, as you didn't really say anything. I presented an idea that you felt is overpowered, and very well may be. If you had presented reasons as to why it was overpowered it would have opened a discussion that could work towards finding a balance that works for all. Simply saying, nope overpowered isn't productive to the converstation in the least. You may have well come into the thread and posted "bibbity bobbity boo" and added one to your post count as you moved onto a different thread.

*And here is a +1 to help balance out the grave injustice that was delivered upon you.

[Shyver]

Balance that suggestion? I wouldn't do that.

Balance Manyshot? I'd only try to do that if ranged combat was first fixed in general, so the approach to improve Manyshot would have to be based on the unknown new game rules.

Ranged combat isn't going to be fixed in general anytime soon, unless you know something the rest of us don't. It's been broken since '06 and has only recieved a series of bandaids to try and correct the problem since. Might as well work within the existing set of known parameters instead of building an idea on a hypothetical what if.

However, the main things I'd want to do to Manyshot:
1. Reduce or eliminate the scaling up from BAB advancement. If 200% damage is acceptable at level 8, then 400% is overpowered at level 18. Maybe leave it as 2x.
2. Change Manyshot from 20 sec with 120 cooldown to two charges of 10 sec, with charges regenerating every 60 seconds.
3. Allow different special ranged attacks (Pin, Hamstring, Sunder) to consume those same charges.

The addition of ranged attacks like mentioned in 3 wouldn't require an overhaul in ranged combat and would be a welcome addition regardless of other boosts.

Unfortunately, this forum has rules that inhibit productive discussion. It is highly likely that a longer explanation would have risked violating some of the rules. (Speculating on the possible motivation of other people)

Well as you're the resident rule "expert" around here I'll take your word for it. I'd rather have a discussion open to all opinions instead of hiding in fear of retribution from other posters.

Hit is a really poor counterbalance. Either the penalty doesn't matter because you have enough or the hit penalty is significant enough that it really reduces whatever benefit you want.

Noone ever said manyshot needs to retain its 3 arrow bonus. Why not reduce it to 1 or 2 extra while adding in the movement debuff?

That's an idea for sure. The only reason I left it "as is" in regards to the number of arrows is because that's how it is currently. Not sure how it actualy works in PnP as it's been MANY years since I played, and even then it was AD&D.

In red

[Shyver]

Back to Coldins idea instead of a further derail into a drastically different concept for manyshot.

So, one of the biggest bonuses an archer gets is Manyshot. The ability to fire several arrows all at once. In fact, an archer using manyshot can deal some of the highest DPS in the game.

Unfortunately, because of this, any archer without Manyshot, or with it on cooldown, quickly sinks to some of the lowest DPS. It makes it incredibly difficult to buff archery though, since almost any buff will also buff the already powerful Manyshot.

So, I propose a significant change to Manyshot. Instead of it's current implementation, the feat would give a passive % increase to an archer's double strike bonus. This bonus could increase as a player's BaB increases, and would stack with other abilities that increase double strike chances. This would normalize archery across the board, and allow ranged combat as a whole to receive an increase in speed.

It's not a bad idea, but how high would the doublestrike percentage have to be? 1% per BaB to a max of 20%? Manyshot, as it stands, is a drastic improvement on dps for bows. So how high would you have to put the percentage so that it doesn't reduce the overall DPS of bows for the time of what would have been a manyshot + cooldown?

And how much of an overall increase to DPS is acceptable for a ranged character. An additional 25% DPS over what would have been a manyshot + cooldown, 50%? What is the balance point of safety of ranged vs. DPS?

[supp3nhuhn]

I didn't neg rep you, I don't have enough rep to do so. And besides I wouldn't have since you didn't say anything worth neg repping, as you didn't really say anything. I presented an idea that you felt is overpowered, and very well may be. If you had presented reasons as to why it was overpowered it would have opened a discussion that could work towards finding a balance that works for all. Simply saying, nope overpowered isn't productive to the converstation in the least. You may have well come into the thread and posted "bibbity bobbity boo" and added one to your post count as you moved onto a different thread.

*And here is a +1 to help balance out the grave injustice that was delivered upon you.

A continuous x4 manyshot roughly triples the damage output of an archer which puts him well ahead of pretty much everything else.
An archer can attack targets as soon as he can see them and he can attack multiple targets at once for full effect with improved precise shot.
Thats why i said its overpowered and you will have a hard time balancing that huge dps advantage in a game that revolves around dps without making archers into some kind of glass cannons that die when being looked at the wrong way which wouldn't be fun either.

When the cooldowns were bugged you already could take a glimpse at continuous manyshot and archers were dominating when they abused that.

As is archery is rather situational, you pew pew while manyshot is up and go twf when its on cooldown.

Ranged combat should be on the low end of the dps scale because you start dealing damage before anyone else and you mitigate quite a bit of incoming damage as well.
As is ranged is too weak but i'd rather see archers getting the ability to use trip or stunning blow at range, giving them double range for sneak attacks and stuff like that then upping their damage to a degree where melees will have a hard time getting to fight anyone.

Oh and ty for the +1.

[Shyver]

A continuous x4 manyshot roughly triples the damage output of an archer which puts him well ahead of pretty much everything else.
An archer can attack targets as soon as he can see them and he can attack multiple targets at once for full effect with improved precise shot.
Thats why i said its overpowered and you will have a hard time balancing that huge dps advantage in a game that revolves around dps without making archers into some kind of glass cannons that die when being looked at the wrong way which wouldn't be fun either.

When the cooldowns were bugged you already could take a glimpse at continuous manyshot and archers were dominating when they abused that.

I think we can all agree then that the 4 arrows of manyshot in a stance would push it to the extreme end of DPS. What about A_D's and Benjai's suggestion that it be reduced to just a static 1 extra arrow per shot? This would increase ranged DPS by 100%, which sounds drastic but really would still be behind melee dps by a fair amount I would imagine.

Could even tack on Coldins idea of doublestrike and give them a 1 or 2 % chance to trigger a doublestrike.

As is archery is rather situational, you pew pew while manyshot is up and go twf when its on cooldown.

But should archery be situational? With the PrE's of Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Mechanic (I know, not a manyshot user but still a ranged concept), bow strength as a feat, Zen Archery, and I'm sure others I'm forgetting it is apparent that the ranged concept is being built up as something more than just situational. It should never be as powerful as melee, really not even close, but it needs a DPS boost from what it is currently.

Ranged combat should be on the low end of the dps scale because you start dealing damage before anyone else and you mitigate quite a bit of incoming damage as well.

Agree, but currently it's so low on the DPS scale that it invalidates the entire concept of ranged combat.

As is ranged is too weak but i'd rather see archers getting the ability to use trip or stunning blow at range, giving them double range for sneak attacks and stuff like that then upping their damage to a degree where melees will have a hard time getting to fight anyone.

Ranged would certainly benefit from the addition of the use of certain combat feats at ranged. And an increase to sneak attack range with ranged weapons would be nice, however keep in mind that rogues will now be able to take feats to improve their doublestrike ability. Doubling their sneak attack range would really make them the best bow users in the game I would think.

Oh and ty for the +1.

In red

[Nevid]

Ranged Combat needs a complete retool and that's that.

I agree completely. Back in the day, there was no AA or Tempest, just good old beat down rangers. My personal favorite was a 30 dex, 28 str build who toggled between bows and rapiers (the punctering kind...I miss those). Ranged combat needs to be re-worked completely to make it truly viable. I for one, do not consider the new 500 dmg slaying arrows a true dps fix. They are simply an attempt to patch a system that is failing or has failed. I mean, it helps the AA build immensly, and makes them much more viable, but really, it is a pain pill, not a cure. I also find it kind of silly that for some reason, Death Ward does not stop slay living arrows (or monk Death Touch), how does that work?

Bringing DPS in balance does not just mean you get to nerf some styles. IT also means you have to power up some styles that need it.

[supp3nhuhn]

I think we can all agree then that the 4 arrows of manyshot in a stance would push it to the extreme end of DPS. What about A_D's and Benjai's suggestion that it be reduced to just a static 1 extra arrow per shot? This would increase ranged DPS by 100%, which sounds drastic but really would still be behind melee dps by a fair amount I would imagine.

Could even tack on Coldins idea of doublestrike and give them a 1 or 2 % chance to trigger a doublestrike.

One extra arrow as stance would actually only be a 33% increase in dps since you'd loose the 20 seconds of carnage you get via manyshot as it is now. This might even lead to a situationaly worse performance because you are not fighting 100% of the time you are in a dungeon, those 2 minutes cooldown can very well mean you have manyshot available for every other encounter.
You will only increase the damage output if your encounter lasts longer than a minute, so it would help against bosses but not much else and would lower the overall dps of archers that switch between melee and ranged now.

On another note you can't fix ranged via the manyshot enhancement because this leaves out repeater builds as you mentioned before yourself.

You might be right with overpowering rogues via double sneak attack distance but as is the distance changes dramatically with the direction the mob you're shooting is heading in, if it moves towards you the range is great, if it runs away you have to be pretty much in melee to get that sneak attack.
I think double strike is a pure melee mechanic at the moment, so i doubt that new rogue feat would change their performance when ranging.

About archery being situational i think thats how it is intended.
Arcane archers and deepwood snipers both have a full line of melee feats in addition to their archery, you only need to invest one or two additional feats to make them fully melee capable, so while their emphasis is placed on ranged they still can be good melees. Same is true for kensai and to a more limited degree bowbarians. Rogues get their juicy sneak attacks so they end up close enough to non twf rogues at close range even with bow or repeater.
What i think should be done here is making melee more situational as well so that melee toons would be made to swap to some ranged weapon more often than it is the case now.
That is purely a matter of quest design though.