Pale Master (and other enhancement) Stacking?

[Dunfalach]

Do the damage and critical boosts from the Pale Master enhancements stack with item boosts to negative energy? Or is it a highest bonus only? For instance, PM1 states: "deal 25% additional damage with negative energy spells, and have a 3% chance for negative energy spells to generate a critical result for 1.5 times the normal damage amount"

So, if I have a superior nullification item equipped, do I get 25% bonus from PM1 *and* 50% bonus for the item? Or just 50% from the item? The same question would go for critical chance and multiplier as well from a lore item.

2) As a more general question while I'm at it, do the Lineage and Manipulation enhancement lines stack with items of the same element?

3) When a spell has a max damage (Chill touch, for instance, states a max of 5d6), do the bonuses from enhancements and items still stack on top of this limit, or do they get cut off? I'm pretty sure the answer is that they stack, but figured I may as well confirm while I'm asking the questions.

[Visty]

1) yes, items stack with enhancements
2) lineage is crit, manipulation is damage. they cant stack cause they do differant things
3) it exceeds the limit

[Dunfalach]

1) yes, items stack with enhancements
2) lineage is crit, manipulation is damage. they cant stack cause they do differant things
3) it exceeds the limit

For #2, I didn't mean Lineage stacking with manipulation, I meant lineage stacking with lore items and manipulation stacking with damage items. But your #1 answer answered that anyway. Thank you!

One more question. Do we know what the calculation is for applying enhancements and items? Say, a Superior Nullification item and the Pale Master I enhancement for example. Would it be:

1) enhancement first, then item - (base damage * 1.25) * 1.5
2) item first, then enhancement - (base damage * 1.5) * 1.25
3) item + enhancement - base damage * 1.75

[Visty]

(base*enhancements*item)*feats

thats the last ive read

[CaptGrim]

Items and enhancements are supposed to stack, But I think that PM is broken and is not applying the bonus at least at Tier 3.

look at necrotic ray in my case:

My PM 3

Necrotic ray 1d8/caster lvl max 25
45% neg damage from PM3
50% sup potency 6
100% maximize
50% empower

Polar ray 1d6/caster lvl max 25
40% elemental damage Enhance
50% sup glaciation 8
100% maximize
50% empower

Now my necrotic rays are hitting for about 1/3 less damage than my polar rays.

All my other buffs for necrotic ray are working, max,emp, and item.

The description for it used to be 1d8 per caster lvl max level 10, so I went to the PvP pit and had someone enervate me to level 10... nope damage for sure goes down not quite half.

I've submitted a bug report, but I suggest you test it for yourself and do your own tests, then please you submit a report also, I really would like this fixed. And for PM 3s necrotic ray SHOULD be awesome.

[tinyelvis]

(base*enhancements*item)*feats

thats the last ive read

This is incorrect or a typo. It should read for the quantities you are referring to,

damage = base * (enhancements +items) * feats

Items and enhancements are supposed to stack, But I think that PM is broken and is not applying the bonus at least at Tier 3.

look at necrotic ray in my case:

My PM 3

Necrotic ray 1d8/caster lvl max 25
45% neg damage from PM3
50% sup potency 6
100% maximize
50% empower

Polar ray 1d6/caster lvl max 25
40% elemental damage Enhance
50% sup glaciation 8
100% maximize
50% empower

Now my necrotic rays are hitting for about 1/3 less damage than my polar rays.

All my other buffs for necrotic ray are working, max,emp, and item.

The description for it used to be 1d8 per caster lvl max level 10, so I went to the PvP pit and had someone enervate me to level 10... nope damage for sure goes down not quite half.

I've submitted a bug report, but I suggest you test it for yourself and do your own tests, then please you submit a report also, I really would like this fixed. And for PM 3s necrotic ray SHOULD be awesome.

The spell seems to function as stated, look here,

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248390

Which is odd, since the damage does not function in line with typical expected damage from a d8. Maximize, heighten and empower seem to work too. Are you sure you are not comparing clicky superior freeze to the necro enhanced spell? Your test is not very systematic. Lots of room for misinterpretation and error. The folks who play wizards always claim they are smarter than the rest of us. Why has one of your kind not systematically tested the enhancement buff? I suppose you can take the developers word that it functions. Personally, I check every offensive spell I use.

Edit: notice average base damage for necro is about 10% lower than Polar ray. Why don't you crank thru the math and see if this will lead to a larger ultimate damage with all of the buffs you use.

Here I'll do it

Necro Ray
base 90
Enh/Item 1.95 *90 = 176
Max/Emp = 2.5 * 176 = 439 < ----- is this what you see on average for a non - save at 20?

Polar Ray
base 100
1.90 *100 = 190
190*2.5 = 475

So, lower values is what I would expect to see for necro over polar ray.

[Syldra]

currently, the palemaster bonuses to negetive energy damage and crit do not work. at all.

they would stack with items if they were working, however.

[tinyelvis]

Then do you see this damage?

base 90
1.5 * 90 = 135
135 * 2.5 = 337

(475 - 337) 475 = 0.29 or 29% of less than Polar ray.

If your enhancement is broken, complain about it for 9 months. Eventually it will be fixed to read, all necro spells have a 20 % boost to damage (however, actually in play an effective boost of only 9% or so).

[CaptGrim]

Then do you see this damage?


Necro Ray

base 90
Enh/Item 1.95 *90 = 176
Max/Emp = 2.5 * 176 = 439 < ----- is this what you see on average for a non - save at 20?

No, It is not

Polar Ray
base 100
1.90 *100 = 190
190*2.5 = 475

This looks really close, so I'll use your numbers. ( for which I would thank you if it were not for you coming off like a jerk when dispensing the info. :P

base 90
1.5 * 90 = 135
135 * 2.5 = 337

This looks more like what I'm seeing without the ToD set on.(perhaps a little lower than what I'm seeing but I only tested a little while before bed last night)

With the ToD set and bugged PM3

base 90
1.6 * 90 = 144
144 * 2.5 = 360

this is very close but perhaps a litle low like the above, maybe I just had a good set of rolls

What it should look like as a comparison if working correctly. Full PM 3 buffs and ToD set.

Nerco ray
base 90
2.05 * 90 = 185
184.5 * 2.5 = 462

Polar Ray
base 100
1.90 *100 = 190
190*2.5 = 475

So at any rate the Nercro ray should be very close to polar ray in damage and I can tell you for sure that this is not the case.

It would be nice to have it for DPS purposes as an alternative to Polar ray, or to put it in a end boss mana dump rotation.

Anyways thanks for the info, and this thread just made me sure I was correct in that the PM line is not adding damage bonus. And for the record the crit isn't working either. I can not remember critting without my greenblade, and with it nerco ray crits much less than polar ray does.(should be about the same with all my buffs/enhancements).

I'll be submitting a new more directed bug report in the near future.

[tinyelvis]

As a sorc, I had tested and considered the ray for rotation too. However it has some issues.

1) No enhancement buff.
2) Incredibly slow casting animation that might impede combo casting. For some reason, it is even slower than Polar Ray.
3) Average base damage is low (lower than the typical D6 spells, since it seems to use an actual D8 probability).

Swapped the spell back out and discarded it. I use evocation focused FL at 7th or higher levels until I need to work in Polar Ray. If you plan on using the spell, grab a Nihil clicky for best performance. They are still pretty cheap on AH.

[CaptGrim]

As a sorc, I had tested and considered the ray for rotation too. However it has some issues.

1) No enhancement buff.
2) Incredibly slow casting animation that might impede combo casting. For some reason, it is even slower than Polar Ray.
3) Average base damage is low (lower than the typical D6 spells, since it seems to use an actual D8 probability).

Swapped the spell back out and discarded it. I use evocation focused FL at 7th or higher levels until I need to work in Polar Ray. If you plan on using the spell, grab a Nihil clicky for best performance. They are still pretty cheap on AH.

1) I agree for sorcs dps there are much better spells for your rotation.
But for pale masters who (should) have an enhancement buff, the dps (should be) is comparable to polar ray.


2) Personnally I'm not too concerned with the slower cast( I'm a wizard after all).

3) it bothers me a little that there is no consistancy for spell damage... theyshould stick with the way they have done it for years... 20d5+3 or 20d4+4. If its too strong chaNge the **** description not the mechanics of how it works.

As far as the nihil clicky, I hate clickys. But I have the eardweller and I have found the 3 minutes is more than enough for most quests. Other than red names I rarly nuke preferring wail or massholds.

Speaking of the eardweller in all of your test have you checked the buff it provides? Seems pretty close to me.

[tinyelvis]

I have made analytical calculations. Since the eardweller is an item boost it does not stack with your other effects. So it can only ever increase your spell damage by at most 25% over a cheap item superior clicky. However, since you usually have maximize, empower, sorcerer capstone, and enhancements also buffing at same time the real increase you see is only like 9% - 10% or so if I recall my calculations.

For such poor effective buffing I don't understand why it exhausts. In essence on a great high level spell we are talking 50 - 60 more points damage. In a minute worth of casting that might only be 1000 points or less. Essentially the same as one or two additional casts. I am not too excited about this item. I personally don't see any reason for interrupting your other grinds to go after it. Since you are looking at around 30 - 100 attempts to get the slug (depending whether you quest elite thru normal). Bad luck can net you 4 to 10 times that.

However, if you need those two extra casts worth of damage; or if you find you can't wait that 8 seconds total cool down to just cast those two extra Polar Rays for the additional damage. Then maybe this item is for you.

[Visty]

I have made analytical calculations. Since the eardweller is an item boost it does not stack with your other effects.

wouldnt be so sure here

it says psionic amplification and tolero -think it was her- said its meant to stack with normal items

[tinyelvis]

wouldnt be so sure here

it says psionic amplification and tolero -think it was her- said its meant to stack with normal items

What's an example of a "normal" item that it is meant to stack with. And what is a non-normal item?




I know you can't trust the text on these things. But this one seems pretty clear.


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[shagath]

it says psionic amplification and tolero -think it was her- said its meant to stack with normal items

It does not stack with other boosts. They said it shouldn't and that old description was wrong.