Warforged Wizard Summoner with Damage Reduction?

[Xenik]

Pipboy, I wish you the best but I really needed to add my 2 cents. Every single person without fail has told you to forget AC. Not one person has stood up and said, "AC could work" Repeatedly people have said, forget AC. You will not avoid being hit. I have played monks, fighters, rogues, clerics, sorc, and paladin. Let me repeat what has been said several time in this thread. Give up on AC. The game doesn't suck just because your wizard cant have good AC. You are not listening or grasping the concept that beyond about level 7 your AC will mean absolutely nothing. NOTHING, as in, not a darn thing. Allow me to simplify, any work you put into AC will actually be a waste and will not cause you to be hit less. Picture this, you are level 12. YOU think 25 AC is neat. YOU might think 30AC is uber. EVERYONE else knows if you aren't at least 45 AC at level 12 in gianthold... Well, you just wasted your effort because you get hit every time a monster swings at you unless they roll a 1. IT IS THE WAY IT IS. Do you think we are all coming here lying to you? Do you think millions of builds and ideas havent been tested? I promise a high AC wizard build is not a new idea you just thought of. It doesn't exist because it cant be done. (for you it cant be done, dont get the idea that you can match the guys that have been playing for years)

[wolfy42]

AC could work........

But only at lower to mid levels.

Even then your generally better off going with adamantium plating early on, running with a base 8 dex and casting cats grace to max out the dex bonus and leave it at that for low to mid level AC.

Mithril body is a waste in my opinion even for melee wizard builds.

Adamantium body can work for melee wizard builds through the early levels (10 or so) fairly well. You can get your spell failure % down to 10% with the right docent/enhancements (and just switch to an AC docent when not casting) and even a 14 base strength with a Carnifex can rock fairly well early on after buffs.

As everyone has mentioned long term AC is just impossible to keep relevant on a wizard. Yes, displacement with a high AC is great!! If you can get your AC high enough to drop a monsters hit chance to 50%....that stacks with displacement to make you only get hit 25% of the time...which is pretty freaking nice.

You just can't do that even as a melee wizard past the early levels pretty much.

I guess if you went all out you could reach a high enough AC for most content on normal difficulty, at least enough so you will get some reduction in damage. The amount of effort you would have to go through, item slots used and stat points invested would not be worth it.

You can still do it though, and there are some possible ways to make it effective.

One suggestion would be to go with an elven arcane archer wizard with very high dex. This could enable your AC to reach a fairly decent level and with the right spells you could pump out a decent amount of damage. You would need to multiclass though (probably with monk for wisdom AC bonus as well and ranger for important feats like bow strength, rapid shot, manyshot and BAB bonus....but it might still end up with enough wizard levels to be fairly effective (maybe Wizard 12/ranger 6/monk 2? netting you PM 2 if you wanted as well).

Anyway I suggest you just enjoy your character for now, it will work fine getting 1000 favor....and after that you'll have access to drow, veteran characters (start at level 4 with 50k bonus exp or so) and a better idea of how the game works.


Finally with your character starting off with a 14 dex if you munch a +2 dex tome you could get the full +5 dex bonus possible from mithrial plating with cats grace on. With a +5 docent at level 8 you could net 18 ac that way.

Even just using shield that could easily allow you to reach:

10 base
2 protection
3 natural
18 mithril plating
4 shield (Shield spell...can be higher if using a actual shield...but not worth it in my opinion)
1 haste bonus
=38 ac by level 8 without any "uber" equipment


That is high enough to make a significant difference in normal and even hard quests through the mid levels especially when used in combination with displacement. If your alignment is chaotic you can pump that up to 40 just from running Deleras...and you could probably pump that up a bit higher without too much serious effort.

Again it won't make a difference long term, your AC just won't reach the levels you really need, but you can certainly get a decent AC early on. Toss on a +5 shield (7 ac vs 4) and turtle up in a firewall while your minions/hirelings and/or party members are pounding on stuff and you could probably reach a decent mid 40's ac.

Btw if you don't have displacement yet (sound like you havn't leveled up that far) invisibility can be even better when having minions fight for you (and hirelings) mainly. Grab a nice WF hireling and you can just heal him up while he and your minions pound on the enemies. Invisibility is actually slightly better then displacement in such situations since monsters will not target you unless you break invisibility or attack them (displacement will just cause monsters to miss you 50% of the time). Invisibility gives the same chance for monsters that have noticed you to miss as displacement does....you just can break invisibility very easily while displacement remains active while fighting etc.

The only real problem I see is your Int is a bit low....everything else looks pretty decent...and you can live with the int you have especially for a first character.

I personally suggest that many WF wizards go with Adamantium plating initially because you get a HUGE ac (without investing in dex at all) and the nice initial DR which stops all grazing blows. It makes the first 7 levels MUCH easier for a pure wizard (till they get fire wall) and then you can just switch out plating for free by doing the quest. You could even wait longer (since by level 7 your failure chance will be 10% or so with a docent tossed in) although honestly by that point it's pretty much worth it to ditch just for the no-fail hastes (not as big of a deal if solo though).

Anyway good luck and I hope you enjoy the game

[shagath]

With items like Con Opp and the Torc in game, casters are typically much better off taking damage anyways.

I agree. I rather get hit than missed. That's the reason why I mostly use just blur, not diplacement.

In endgame, if you stay below 70 AC (90+ in epic) you are hit everytime from mobs (except when they roll 1).

Actually. With U5 Turbine lowered to-hit at the same time they lowered saves. I've heard now you can do fine in epic with ac of 65+.

[pipboy1]

I am not hear asking if a Wizard can have a high AC really. I am asking if I gimp my wizard.....

Can a Warforged fighter have an high AC that uses a Mithral light shield and Mithral Body? What is the difference between a wizard versus fighter build for AC? I know there is +3 difference on armor bonus, and +3 difference between a tower shield and mithral light shield at least. I have not played the game that far. So is there anything else other than -6 AC penalty between a Warforged fighter and Warforged Wizard? I know again AC is repeated to be worthless. I know you can take the damage and have better spells. I know in the end it is better by most Wizards to not do what I am suggesting. I don't care.

Again what is the difference between a Warforged Fighter and a Warforged Wizard on AC? Please someone explain to me what would be the AC differences.

[spitfirek]

I was under the impression that WF DR from both feat and AP stack with other DR/adamantine... cuz that is what the tooltip says when you mouse over them. I havent tried yet though, so it might just be a typo or bug.

[pipboy1]

I just looked at the DR again it does not state that is stacks with spells. Yes the feats stack and the enhancements on one another, but as stated Stoneskin gives 10 DR/adamantine. At least when I look at the feat and enhancement that is all I see. To get above 10 DR/adamantine would take a lot of feats and enhancements.

Maybe I should put this in the fighter section instead. I am going to probably hear again AC stinks and nothing of a comparison versus a fighter I think. If someone can help explain what I would loose versus playing a fighter feel free to PM me.

[Therigar]

I am not hear asking if a Wizard can have a high AC really. I am asking if I gimp my wizard.....

Can a Warforged fighter have an high AC that uses a Mithral light shield and Mithral Body? What is the difference between a wizard versus fighter build for AC? I know there is +3 difference on armor bonus, and +3 difference between a tower shield and mithral light shield at least. I have not played the game that far. So is there anything else other than -6 AC penalty between a Warforged fighter and Warforged Wizard? I know again AC is repeated to be worthless. I know you can take the damage and have better spells. I know in the end it is better by most Wizards to not do what I am suggesting. I don't care.

Again what is the difference between a Warforged Fighter and a Warforged Wizard on AC? Please someone explain to me what would be the AC differences.

There is no difference concerning AC on any character class. A 25 AC is a 25 AC no matter what character class you are looking at.

The issue with wizards is that shields and armor create a probability of spell failure. Even with no armor feat and no shield a warforged wizard has a 5% failure rate. Because fighters do not face this problem it is not something they worry about.

AC is determined by the armor type and also affected by DEX, WIS, spells, inherent abilities and enhancements. Not all of these apply to every character.

A lot of work has gone into finding meaningful AC for end-game content. At present that is somewhere around AC 70. Unless a character can get in that 67-72+ AC range they are better off not even worrying about their AC.

To get an AC that high and still be able to cast spells a wizard must dump CON and STR in favor of DEX and WIS, must start with a lower INT and must also splash levels of monk and paladin.

This has several negative consequences for the wizard.

First, having less wizard levels affects spell resistance. A monster is able to resist your spells based on this formula: spell resistance > 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (include feats, enhancements and items). Each level spent on some other class in order to get to a meaningful AC means a lowered chance of overcoming spell resistance.

Second, the need to lower INT reduces the chance that the spell will even land. This is called the Difficulty Class and, in most cases, it uses the base casting stat (which is INT for wizards).

So, there is no difference in what AC is. There is just a difference in what trying to achieve a meaningful AC does to the character and its ability to function well in its primary class.

FWIW, the highest AC for warforged is obtained by going with no armor feat and not using a shield.

I just looked at the DR again it does not state that is stacks with spells. Yes the feats stack and the enhancements on one another, but as stated Stoneskin gives 10 DR/adamantine. At least when I look at the feat and enhancement that is all I see. To get above 10 DR/adamantine would take a lot of feats and enhancements.

Maybe I should put this in the fighter section instead. I am going to probably hear again AC stinks and nothing of a comparison versus a fighter I think. If someone can help explain what I would loose versus playing a fighter feel free to PM me.

DR for warforged....

Feat DR and enhancement DR stack with one another. DR from Favored Soul capstone stacks. Other DR (even of same general type DR/adamantine) does not.

[pipboy1]

I was only coming from playing a fighter with no shield and began to think I would like to have more buffing and repairing myself.

I made a build with monk instead of the rogue in the character planner. If anyone has any advice on it please let me know.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Monk \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 230
Spell Points: 1357 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 15
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            14                    14
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence         16                    23
Wisdom               13                    14
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    24
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         7                    25
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  6                     7
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  4                     5
Listen                4                     6
Move Silently         6                     7
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                     6
Search                3                    14
Spot                  5                    24
Swim                  0                     0
Tumble                3                     3
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Augment Summoning
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Summon Skeleton Archer
Enhancement: Summon Skeletal Knight
Enhancement: Summon Skeletal Mage


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Archer
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Knight
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Mage
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Archer
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Knight
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Mage

I am pretty sure this could be tweaked better. I am still trying to attain a decent AC. I probably will never play the game to the end. Anyway I think the AC will hold me through the mid game. I do not know every item set that could improve the AC. It would helpful if someone could give info on what I could do to improve this build with items.

[Merlocke]

I was only coming from playing a fighter with no shield and began to think I would like to have more buffing and repairing myself.

UMD Reconstruct (or Heal scrolls) to self heal. You can self buff with shroud-crafted Blur/Haste/displacement clickies. Looks to me like you should roll an (AC) melee with these items.

[pipboy1]

UMD Reconstruct (or Heal scrolls) to self heal. You can self buff with shroud-crafted Blur/Haste/displacement clickies. Looks to me like you should roll an (AC) melee with these items.

That is not really what I am looking for. I want to cast the spells. I will sacrifice spell casting in order to achieve something that people do not like. I will just start a new thread to find any suggestions on the last build.

[Therigar]

I was looking at potential AC if you were to take a monk splash. FWIW, I think that you must take 2 levels of monk if you are going to bother with it at all. So, I think you have the right class mix with monk 2/wizard 18. You have to have the 2 levels of monk for the evasion.

Having said that, here is a potential AC breakdown.

10 base AC
02 Warforged composite body
07 DEX 24 (16 plus +6 item and +2 tome)
06 WIS 22 (14 plus +6 item and +2 tome)
01 Monk centered bonus
01 Dodge feat
05 +5 Dragontouched docent
02 reinforced plating bonus from Dragontouched docent
01 Alchemical bonus on docent
02 Chaosgarde bracers
03 Chattering Ring
05 +5 protection item
02 Greater parrying item
01 Haste spell
04 Shield spell
03 Barkskin potion
--
55 Personal AC

02 Ranger cast barkskin
05 Paladin very nearby for aura effect
02 Recitation spell
04 Bard Ispire Heroics song
--
68 Buffed AC

You can hit close to 70 with the right gear and buffs. Some of the items are extremely hard to get (Chattering Ring).

Reality is that you are probably looking, best case, at less than 50 AC and you won't be getting the buffs from other characters because you won't be perceived as needing them.

Anything you do to increase DEX and WIS will increase AC. There isn't too much that you can add in as additional items to increase the AC. You might be able to get UMD high enough to UMD Recitation.

A lot of work for not much AC.

[Bodic]

a WF caster w/o quicken = gimp w/o HP your dead quicken ensures that reconstruct goes off.
Extend,Max,Empwr,Quicken,Heighten a must for a WIZ

[pipboy1]

I was looking at potential AC if you were to take a monk splash. FWIW, I think that you must take 2 levels of monk if you are going to bother with it at all. So, I think you have the right class mix with monk 2/wizard 18. You have to have the 2 levels of monk for the evasion.

Having said that, here is a potential AC breakdown.

10 base AC
02 Warforged composite body
07 DEX 24 (16 plus +6 item and +2 tome)
06 WIS 22 (14 plus +6 item and +2 tome)
01 Monk centered bonus
01 Dodge feat
05 +5 Dragontouched docent
02 reinforced plating bonus from Dragontouched docent
01 Alchemical bonus on docent
02 Chaosgarde bracers
03 Chattering Ring
05 +5 protection item
02 Greater parrying item
01 Haste spell
04 Shield spell
03 Barkskin potion
--
55 Personal AC

02 Ranger cast barkskin
05 Paladin very nearby for aura effect
02 Recitation spell
04 Bard Ispire Heroics song
--
68 Buffed AC

You can hit close to 70 with the right gear and buffs. Some of the items are extremely hard to get (Chattering Ring).

Reality is that you are probably looking, best case, at less than 50 AC and you won't be getting the buffs from other characters because you won't be perceived as needing them.

Anything you do to increase DEX and WIS will increase AC. There isn't too much that you can add in as additional items to increase the AC. You might be able to get UMD high enough to UMD Recitation.

A lot of work for not much AC.

I can add Combat Expertise and use the Necrotic Bolt right?

What is Insight AC? I see the Green Steel listed in some threads.

These together could raise it +9 more, but I would not start my Dex at 16 so I could have more HP instead.

Regardless I do not think I will play to the end, but 63 Personal AC sounds pretty reasonable to enjoy most of the game. How badly am I gimping my DC from a 23 Intelligence(at lvl 20) before items?

I don't see how I would get much better by playing someone in full gear. The only handicap I see is the Shield bonus versus a Tank. Unless I am missing something. Full Plate's base is 8 and Tower shield is 4.

So Dex 14 and Wis 14 gives me +4. Center bonus is +1, Composite Body is +2. Starting then with +7 versus +8 Full Plate. The docent making up the bonus.

The Shield is the biggest problem. Only +4 Shield versus what +9 normally?

So I am looking at the base difference between a fighter with gear versus the monk being 6. Unless I am missing something. Please explain how this can be a larger difference?

[Kyln]

I can add Combat Expertise and use the Necrotic Bolt right?

What is Insight AC? I see the Green Steel listed in some threads.

These together could raise it +9 more, but I would not start my Dex at 16 so I could have more HP instead.

Regardless I do not think I will play to the end, but 63 Personal AC sounds pretty reasonable to enjoy most of the game. How badly am I gimping my DC from a 23 Intelligence(at lvl 20) before items?

I don't see how I would get much better by playing someone in full gear. The only handicap I see is the Shield bonus versus a Tank. Unless I am missing something. Full Plate's base is 8 and Tower shield is 4.

So Dex 14 and Wis 14 gives me +4. Center bonus is +1, Composite Body is +2. Starting then with +7 versus +8 Full Plate. The docent making up the bonus.

The Shield is the biggest problem. Only +4 Shield versus what +9 normally?

So I am looking at the base difference between a fighter with gear versus the monk being 6. Unless I am missing something. Please explain how this can be a larger difference?

Enhancements can be used by AC tanks that are fighters to boost their AC. Other Classes like Barbarians that plan on taking a lot of aggro go out of their way to maximize HP and damage reduction, but still plan on having to heal a lot. Buffing classes give the characters expected to get a lot of aggro massive boosts that they will not assume they need to give you (and probably will be resistant to, as you shouldn't be pulling aggro with the play style you say you are going to do and they will see it as a waste of resources).

I do have a question for you though. You say you do not want to aggressively cast and that you are interested mainly in summons and buffs. Where do you plan on getting all the hate from that would necessitate a high AC? I don't see why you would put so much of your resources into AC as if you were the primary focus of aggro when your stated aims are such that you should be avoiding most attention from enemies.

[pipboy1]

Enhancements can be used by AC tanks that are fighters to boost their AC. Other Classes like Barbarians that plan on taking a lot of aggro go out of their way to maximize HP and damage reduction, but still plan on having to heal a lot. Buffing classes give the characters expected to get a lot of aggro massive boosts that they will not assume they need to give you (and probably will be resistant to, as you shouldn't be pulling aggro with the play style you say you are going to do and they will see it as a waste of resources).

I do have a question for you though. You say you do not want to aggressively cast and that you are interested mainly in summons and buffs. Where do you plan on getting all the hate from that would necessitate a high AC? I don't see why you would put so much of your resources into AC as if you were the primary focus of aggro when your stated aims are such that you should be avoiding most attention from enemies.

Ok I could see a few differences then from enhancements. I am getting attacked quite often with another party member, and I play solo a lot. I am using wands for attack.(Which I means I can use combat expertise right?) That was the original point of this toon. The AI sucks on this game. I mean I understand the general principle of aggro, but you can not stop a critter from walking straight through you. I have never been fortunate enough to not being in the middle of the fight.

Also I did play the recommended character with a starting Int 18, and realized I could not cast a summon out with a steel companion. I am changing this guy up because of that as well. This my third try toon I am on now. So I still have the tinker build recommended above(very close anyway) and this new one.