What are the N/H/E "safe" AC thresholds for VoD/ToD/Etc . . .

[grodon9999]

What are the N/H/E "safe" AC thresholds for VoD/ToD/Etc . . . Title says it all. By "safe" I mean missed enough that you can be kept up with scrolls and radiant aura.

I know sulu on Normal is 72 if he's exhausted, I'm sure somebody had to have figured out the rest by now.

[sirgog]

In ToD, you take a lot of non-melee damage on all difficulties. Even if you have a 94 AC, you'll still be hurt quite a bit by 250 damage Delayed Blast Fireballs, 400 damage (easily mitigated) Meteor Swarms, and 500 point Disintegrates.

Suulo in ToD part 3 should be 76 though.

[grodon9999]

In ToD, you take a lot of non-melee damage on all difficulties. Even if you have a 94 AC, you'll still be hurt quite a bit by 250 damage Delayed Blast Fireballs, 400 damage (easily mitigated) Meteor Swarms, and 500 point Disintegrates.

Suulo in ToD part 3 should be 76 though.

Well aware of the massive HP pool needed for Horoth.

For Sulu, that 76 are you talking about on Hard with or without Exhaustion?

[MrWizard]

I know horoth on norm was pretty easy at 74 ac, self buffed (no caster/bard raid one time) and was easily healed (except for that one disintgrate)

[sirgog]

Well aware of the massive HP pool needed for Horoth.

For Sulu, that 76 are you talking about on Hard with or without Exhaustion?

That is the Suulomades in normal difficulty Tower of Despair, after Exhaustion. (He's the same monster as in VoD, but has Greater Heroism, granting him +4 To-Hit as well as other benefits).

[grodon9999]

That is the Suulomades in normal difficulty Tower of Despair, after Exhaustion. (He's the same monster as in VoD, but has Greater Heroism, granting him +4 To-Hit as well as other benefits).

Ahhhhh - that makes total sense, they get the same buffs we do from the environment.

I'm just curious because the Dorfster I'm building might be able to get decent AC with very little DPS sacrifice, contemplating hate-tanking options.

[emptysands]

In ToD, you take a lot of non-melee damage on all difficulties. Even if you have a 94 AC, you'll still be hurt quite a bit by 250 damage Delayed Blast Fireballs, 400 damage (easily mitigated) Meteor Swarms, and 500 point Disintegrates.

Suulo in ToD part 3 should be 76 though.

This is where evasion helps a lot.

[sirgog]

This is where evasion helps a lot.

Even with Evasion, you are still taking 30 damage per second from the three Badges, once you have them all. (This is the elite figures for badge damage and tick frequency - not sure if they are different on Normal). (Elite Horoth does about 100 melee damage per second unexhausted and with no AC)

If you have 20% healing amp, that is almost exactly the healing you get from a Bard spamming Heal scrolls on you every cooldown.

[MrWizard]

I find having a very high DR in block mode and substantial healing amp will overcome any small deficiencies in your AC. Higher AC deficiencies will make it that much harder though.

I think you are a stalwart..you can get to 45 DR on your own as any race, I think wf can add some more to that(?)...add a stone skin popped on you every so often for a total of 49 (probably 51 if a dwarf). This will help you absorb almost all of the melee damage should he hit you.

The healing amp gets you through the blasts, medal, disint., etc without giving the cleric carpel tunnel syndrome...My fighter has the 30% human amp and 60% shroud healing weapon (trip pos) for 90%, really about 123%... so a nice enhanced cure light wounds usually gets 300-600, more on a crit, depending on who casts it..

regular heal scroll gets you 245, an enhancement boost for a caster probably gets over 400..

You have to record the battle to look to see where the damage is coming from..

(evasion don't help with that bludgeon from meteor swarms either I hear)

[Astraghal]

Do groups ever use an intimitank on horoth?

If so, what happens if the intimitank gets stunned and they lose aggro due to not being able to use intimidate?

Wouldn't an intimitank need 660+ hp to avoid being killed outright by a 600+ damage disintegrate in the middle of a couple of ticks of 30 damage?

Wouldn't it be safer to put a high dps/hp hate tank on horoth, due to the difference in aggro mechanics between intimidate and hate/incite?

Why do people insist on having a warforged hate tank for suulomades, when a stalwart intimitank can establish aggro instantly, maintain it indefinately, control the mob completely, all the while taking next to no damage and not getting cursed while shield blocking?

It seems to me that this is a way more resource friendly option. It also allows the group to relax, knowing that the mob is basically stuck in a black hole. It also saves time in the long run, even if the intimitank is only shield blocking, because the group can beat on the mobs back from start to finish, without having to wait for the hate tank to reestablish aggro if/when they lose it and/or get chains.

[MrWizard]

Do groups ever use an intimitank on horoth?

yes, all the time, sully too.

If so, what happens if the intimitank gets stunned and they lose aggro due to not being able to use intimidate?

The same thing that happens if a hate tank loses aggro. Stun only lasts a few seconds. Most of the time it happens while he is still intimmed, but not always.

Wouldn't an intimitank need 660+ hp to avoid being killed outright by a 600+ damage disintegrate in the middle of a couple of ticks of 30 damage?

Dis. does around 500-520 on norm. Most intim tanks have well over 600 hit points.
In any case, the non intim is also taking massive melee damage too where the intim is not, so the point is rather a wash..

Wouldn't it be safer to put a high dps/hp hate tank on horoth, due to the difference in aggro mechanics between intimidate and hate/incite?

Intimidate is 100% hold, hate can be lost. The safe bet is to put the person that will not die, maintain aggro, and cost the least resources, whether hate or intim.

Why do people insist on having a warforged hate tank for suulomades, when a stalwart intimitank can establish aggro instantly, maintain it indefinately, control the mob completely, all the while taking next to no damage and not getting cursed while shield blocking?

Because some people detest intimidation and refuse to use it. In a case where the party is proficient, it probably does not matter. (except to the healers).

It seems to me that this is a way more resource friendly option. It also allows the group to relax, knowing that the mob is basically stuck in a black hole. It also saves time in the long run, even if the intimitank is only shield blocking, because the group can beat on the mobs back from start to finish, without having to wait for the hate tank to reestablish aggro if/when they lose it and/or get chains.

well, you just opened the can of worms.

Just because a class PrE is build specifically to hold aggro and survive just about anything with little damage..intim tank, is no reason to think anyone would ever want to use such a gimp tactic.

Until they nerf intim, and they will, it is to me the simplest fastest easiest way to do most hard battles with little resource used at all.

[BoBoDaClown]

well, you just opened the can of worms.

Just because a class PrE is build specifically to hold aggro and survive just about anything with little damage..intim tank, is no reason to think anyone would ever want to use such a gimp tactic.

Until they nerf intim, and they will, it is to me the simplest fastest easiest way to do most hard battles with little resource used at all.

The tactic my guild used last time worked well.

The intim (me) hate tanked him to start with (i.e. I was taking a fair whack of damage). Then the group peeled off to kill Sully and I turtled up in order to reduce resource expenditure. That meant that any stunning/mishaps meant Horoth didn't go running off.

[sirgog]

Do groups ever use an intimitank on horoth?

If so, what happens if the intimitank gets stunned and they lose aggro due to not being able to use intimidate?

Wouldn't an intimitank need 660+ hp to avoid being killed outright by a 600+ damage disintegrate in the middle of a couple of ticks of 30 damage?

Wouldn't it be safer to put a high dps/hp hate tank on horoth, due to the difference in aggro mechanics between intimidate and hate/incite?

Why do people insist on having a warforged hate tank for suulomades, when a stalwart intimitank can establish aggro instantly, maintain it indefinately, control the mob completely, all the while taking next to no damage and not getting cursed while shield blocking?

It seems to me that this is a way more resource friendly option. It also allows the group to relax, knowing that the mob is basically stuck in a black hole. It also saves time in the long run, even if the intimitank is only shield blocking, because the group can beat on the mobs back from start to finish, without having to wait for the hate tank to reestablish aggro if/when they lose it and/or get chains.

On all difficulties, Horoth is casting a caster level 20 Disintegrate with Maximize, Empower and no Potency item.

40d6 x 2.5, but this uses DDO's loaded dice (d6 in spell damage is always 4, 5 or 6).

This has an average of 500, and (if my maths is right) a standard deviation of about 14 - meaning that 95% of the time, it does more than 472 and less than 528 damage.


As for why groups seldom use Intimitanks - there are not many good ones, at all. That's why they have a bad name.

[Angelus_dead]

I know sulu on Normal is 72 if he's exhausted, I'm sure somebody had to have figured out the rest by now.

How sure are you about 72? I know that back before grazing hits were added, I'd get missed 19+ times in a row with AC 68 (or even less). Maybe there was some other debuff going on there, but as Suulomades has Mantle of Invulnerability I can't guess what it might be.

[sirgog]

How sure are you about 72? I know that back before grazing hits were added, I'd get missed 19+ times in a row with AC 68 (or even less). Maybe there was some other debuff going on there, but as Suulomades has Mantle of Invulnerability I can't guess what it might be.

DQ-staff Ray of Enfeeblement, most likely.

That no longer works/.

[Astraghal]

I was asked to tank horoth on my intimitank once on normal tod. I protested, based on what I had read about other intimitanking experiences on here. I had 587 hp in stance plus whatever other buffs give hp like aid and gh. Was able to hold horoths aggro fine and didn't take too much damage shield blocking. Then I got killed outright by a combination of disintegrate and tick damage. Someone typed '600' into party chat, I didn't have time to check the combat log myself.

After rez I had trouble separating horoth from suulomades because they were on top of each other and I couldn't intimidate without picking them both up. When I got aggro again and pulled him back over to his spot, I got stunned and he went running over to suulomades again. We finally managed to kill them both, after much chaos.

So as I see it, all it takes is a single stun just as the intimidate timer runs out to potentially cause a wipe, while horoth would stay aggro'd on a hate tank, even if they were stunned. I think pouring heals into a horoth tank is a given, but at least a high hp hate tank won't be disintegrated, or lose aggro when stunned if they're doing it right. With intimidate, as soon as you're not pushing the button, the mob will likely move off.

Like that guy said, maybe it changes how aggro is determined if you generate some hate aggro before turtling up, perhaps that makes you a higher priority target for horoths aggro if intimidate fails for whatever reason.

There's a lot about the numbers behind the game that I'd like to know for sure, but can't find any information on.

Can you tell me how to get well over 600 hp as a dwarf with a starting CON of 16, without taking multiple toughness feats?

I can only see around 627 with exceptional, minos, shroud hp item and all toughness enhancements.

[sirgog]

I was asked to tank horoth on my intimitank once on normal tod. I protested, based on what I had read about other intimitanking experiences on here. I had 587 hp in stance plus whatever other buffs give hp like aid and gh. Was able to hold horoths aggro fine and didn't take too much damage shield blocking. Then I got killed outright by a combination of disintegrate and tick damage. Someone typed '600' into party chat, I didn't have time to check the combat log myself.

After rez I had trouble separating horoth from suulomades because they were on top of each other and I couldn't intimidate without picking them both up. When I got aggro again and pulled him back over to his spot, I got stunned and he went running over to suulomades again. We finally managed to kill them both, after much chaos.

So as I see it, all it takes is a single stun just as the intimidate timer runs out to potentially cause a wipe, while horoth would stay aggro'd on a hate tank, even if they were stunned. I think pouring heals into a horoth tank is a given, but at least a high hp hate tank won't be disintegrated, or lose aggro when stunned if they're doing it right. With intimidate, as soon as you're not pushing the button, the mob will likely move off.

Like that guy said, maybe it changes how aggro is determined if you generate some hate aggro before turtling up, perhaps that makes you a higher priority target for horoths aggro if intimidate fails for whatever reason.

There's a lot about the numbers behind the game that I'd like to know for sure, but can't find any information on.

Can you tell me how to get well over 600 hp as a dwarf with a starting CON of 16, without taking multiple toughness feats?

I can only see around 627 with exceptional, minos, shroud hp item and all toughness enhancements.

Yugoloth potions are gold. +40hp on a level 20, stacks with everything (drawback: -5% melee DPS due to reduced swing speed). My FvS20 has 667 when running challenging content. Also there's 10hp for Gianthold 150 favor.

You can prevent disasters like that by using a capstone cleric as insurance against that natural 1 - you'll still drop and lose aggro, but you'll be alive and still buffed, and able to take Horoth's aggro back as soon as you get healed to full.

If you have a halfway decent Fortitude save (30 or better works) then Disintegrate deals ~70 damage 95% of the time. The other 5% it does the big whallop, like I posted before, 500 average on all difficulties and, 97% of the time it does under 530.

[Quikster]

Once horoth establishes agro it is very difficult to change. Spamming of ToD with some double strikes, big ex smites, etc can steal agro once its established, but outside of that not much is going to change it.

With intimidate being used as the primary agro holder, it is very easy for agro to change. This is why dots appear on others even when agro doesnt seem to be changed. All it takes is a slight timing anomaly and you too can have dots while the intimitank seems to have held agro all the time.

Due to this we rarely use intimitanks. Even the tanks that are good. A well timed stun, a bit of server lag, a client crash by the healer assigned to you, etc, can all cause the intimitank to lose agro.

This is also a blessing in disguise however. Even a lower dps tank can hold agro on horoth with just a bit of a head start if they know what they are doing. Buffing str as much as possible, haste boosts/smites etc can help establish initial agro. It only has to last till the group pulls off to kill sully. At that point if the tank still has agro, its very unlikely to lose it.

If we are using intimidate to hold his agro, I try to assign someone to establish hate agro. Its fairly easy to see who is going to be pulling the most hate after part 2. The shadowmasters agro switches much easier than horoths. Using the part 2 fight as a guage I can usually tell who will have the hate in part 3. I make this person stay on horoth the whole fight so if the intimidator loses agro for whatever reason, horoth doesnt go very far and he can reestablish agro without having to run around the room.

I know some here will claim they use intimidate every time and its fine. That may very well be the case. But i have run tod enough times, with enough solid tanks to know, something happens once in a while, often enough to take safeguards against it.

As a side note, when two mobs are together and you only want to intimidate one, imagine a circle around you and the mob you are trying to get about the size of a haste animation. Place the desired mob in that circle, and the undesired mob outside of that circle. It may take a few tries or you may need to practice to get the range correct, but once you do, you're golden for those wacky situations.

[MrWizard]

I was asked to tank horoth on my intimitank once on normal tod. I protested, based on what I had read about other intimitanking experiences on here. I had 587 hp in stance plus whatever other buffs give hp like aid and gh. Was able to hold horoths aggro fine and didn't take too much damage shield blocking. Then I got killed outright by a combination of disintegrate and tick damage. Someone typed '600' into party chat, I didn't have time to check the combat log myself.

After rez I had trouble separating horoth from suulomades because they were on top of each other and I couldn't intimidate without picking them both up. When I got aggro again and pulled him back over to his spot, I got stunned and he went running over to suulomades again. We finally managed to kill them both, after much chaos.

So as I see it, all it takes is a single stun just as the intimidate timer runs out to potentially cause a wipe, while horoth would stay aggro'd on a hate tank, even if they were stunned. I think pouring heals into a horoth tank is a given, but at least a high hp hate tank won't be disintegrated, or lose aggro when stunned if they're doing it right. With intimidate, as soon as you're not pushing the button, the mob will likely move off.

Like that guy said, maybe it changes how aggro is determined if you generate some hate aggro before turtling up, perhaps that makes you a higher priority target for horoths aggro if intimidate fails for whatever reason.

There's a lot about the numbers behind the game that I'd like to know for sure, but can't find any information on.

Can you tell me how to get well over 600 hp as a dwarf with a starting CON of 16, without taking multiple toughness feats?

I can only see around 627 with exceptional, minos, shroud hp item and all toughness enhancements.

Whether hate tank or intim, they both get hit by disintigrate and both take the same amount of damage by it. You need to look at your fort save, with a high one it is usually only a 1 that will get through.

a tank that is melee-ing horoth is going to be taking 72 points of damage per swing, along with medals, along with storms, etc....and will most likely have less hp when failing that dis.

anything can happen. I once failed it and went to 3 hit points..I was like..oh my god...I took one pot and a cleric hit me right before the medals ticked.

also, shield block/intim and i seldom get medals. I only seem to get them when tumbling, swing, self healing, or anything taking me out of shield block.

Stun does not work on 500HP+ mobs. He does not stun all that often and a well made intim should stay above 500 a lot barring the dis. or too many multiple medals.


One way to peel off horoth from sully, should it happen, is to actually not get super close...just get close enough to get one and the other should be out of range..

or just grab them both and wait for someone to pull aggro of one, someone to pull the other, then chase horoth down and intim him.


I find you gotta have good ac. 74 is my self buff and I have had to do that in there, I did take much more damage than being 'raid buffed'..not much, but it was noticable.

Your DR matters. I sit at 45 dr and ask for stoneskins or self buff them to make it 49. That absorbs a ton of damage keeping your hp very high. Leviks shield is good for an occasional heal too. Fort save, fort save, will save, will save, reflex save, reflex saves..

it is in your best interest to look at your saves...a minimum of 30 for each...at the very least. If you can get them mid 30s that is awesome. The fort will probably be highest.

A human tank can get the +5 versa boost to saves...use it when tanking him.



as has been said, due to party make up, it usually falls to one tank to be the lead as the party can't handle aggro swings.
Intim tanks can fail and die. Hate tanks can fail and die. It happens.
It is always good to have the 'backup' guy designated should anything happen to the lead to just take over. And this does happen a lot.

DC, banish (I forgot my boots once.. ), bad lag, wife aggro, power outage. Anything can happen.

If someone cannot immediately step in to calm the situation down, it can be crazy. Our intim died due to a DC...twice. And I ended up with sully, horoth, and the orthons in one corner while the cleric raised others.
I have seen ditto with a hate tank and ranger splitting up the mobs to save group.

it really depends on who is in that group.



same with part 2. Intim is easy against the chairs. Never fails, easy kill, no mana usage. But that encounter depends on the kiter. Many kiters, for some unknown reason, love to kite the shadows right next to the stairs...for no reason.

And then we all get shocked if a shadow comes up... We never intim if the kiter is inexperienced or cannot understand bring the shadows within 10 feet of the party is just dumb. But if the kiter can handle their job well, intim and kill, done... Or hate tank and kill, done.



Now, if you do not want hate or intim, then bring a good ac/dps party where all can handle the aggro and just surround and swing...now that would be awesome.

[Eeomis]

[QUOTE=Astraghal;3213747
I got stunned and he went running over to suulomades again.[/QUOTE]


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