Energy Substitution

[Darsith]

So the other night me and a guildy were discussing what would be nice to provide more uses of the acid/lightning line of wiz/sorc enhancements.

I made the comment that the energy substitution line would do this without having to add new spells.

Now I can see the issue that making a metamagic that would prompt a drop down to be interesting to code for the game, I came up with the idea to make it when choosing you decide what energy to specialize in. So if I wanted to spec lightning I could take the feat and choose Energy Substitution (Lightning), then when ever I activate the feat it would swap damage to lightning based. When the spell was not on the spells would function normally.

In pnp I remember that the cost was equivalent to extend. I dont see this costing 10 extra spell points and not being considered OP... However I can see this being approximately the cost of empower or maximize as this would allow a lot of freedom for casters and a little more viability.

[kamimitsu]

This has been brought up before, but if I recall correctly, the 'balance experts' claimed it would be game-breaking and/or increase the 'blanket immunities' of many high-level monsters. I'd personally like to see it from an options and flavor standpoint, but it would be extremely difficult to keep it from being overly powerful.

[Pyromaniac]

Isn't that part of the long awaited sorc prestiges? It should be anyways...

[Carlll]

Introducing Firewall was a mistake; they arent screwing with it only because the caster rage would be extreme. One of those mistakes the game has to live with.
They arent gonna make it worse with energy substitution.

[Angelus_dead]

Introducing Firewall was a mistake

Hopefully someday they'll fix Wall of Fire to be balanced among the mage spells, and at that time Energy Substitution can be reconsidered for inclusion.

[azrael4h]

Please don't ask for the nerf bat. Everyone has already taken enough hits to cause internal bleeding.

One issue would of course be graphics. Having to design an energy-substituted version of a large chunk of the existing spells would be expensive and time consuming. Firewall would need 4 new versions made, assuming it's limited to Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Sonic damage. Add one for Force damage if you'll let that be swapped in.

Of course, the balance between damage types could more easily be fixed by adding new spells to amp up the Acid/Elec and Force lines, ones that are an attractive alternative to WoF, CoC, Polar Ray etc... That won't happen either. Instead, we'll get another useless level 1 single target spell. Maybe another HD-limited (at 3HD no less, since can't make it "too powerful" or it'll induce lag) spell that no one ever takes.

[Rakian_Knight]

Hopefully someday they'll fix Wall of Fire to be balanced among the mage spells, and at that time Energy Substitution can be reconsidered for inclusion.

Wall of Fire is overpowered (and I don't use it mainly because I just don't like it) but one of the reasons its overpowered is because of the lack of spells combined with most spells becoming useless before you get them from HP limits or HD limits that are CR 4 monsters in DDO.

Energy Substitution would be a great addition but would just turn the wizard/sorcerer class into throw Wall of [element] here. Add more useful spells that do something besides damage and fix the ones that are useless and you might see the game change for the better first. Conjurers, Illusionist, Transmuters, are all left out besides a couple very limited spells.

Just my thoughts

[Pyromaniac]

One issue would of course be graphics.

They could just swap the colors, it can look horrible as long as it happens. Someone must be pretty talented at it, as we've seen multiple colors of the same thing for pit fiends.

[voodoogroves]

Be careful with phrases like "over powered"


It is hugely useful. It has awesome synergies for destroying undead.

It is magnified by monster AI being not that of a live person.

And it is one of or the most useful spell in its level range.

That does not make something over powered. It makes it "good" or "the best". REmoving it or altering it simply shifts the balance of power. DDO already has power-shifted away from spellcasters to melee from PNP ... nerfing wall of fire is not the answer, it just changes the power curve (and further slides arcanes away from melee or changes all of them into enchanters/webbers/etc.)

[Shiler]

Electric/Sonic Wall of Fire, <drool>
electric/sonic Incenerary Cloud.<drool>


Atm casters are in supperior position to any other class, except in amrath[ and this is going away too with TRing]
Why give them even more power?

[Pyromaniac]

Atm casters are in supperior position to any other class, except in amrath[ and this is going away too with TRing]
Why give them even more power?

Considering the vast majority of groups for end game quests (epics) and raids (epic von/DQ, ToD) don't take more than 1 arcane caster, there's plenty of room to help arcanes out.

[Angelus_dead]

Be careful with phrases like "over powered"

To call Wall of Fire overpowered is absolutely correct. Pretending it's not overpowered will lead to unhelpful suggestions.

For proof that Wall of Fire is overpowered, just look at how damaging a Wizard can be against a Blue or Black Dragon compared to a Red Dragon.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

The reason Wall of Fire is so powerful is that the AI is not smart enough to avoid it.
Same with Blade Barrier, and any other persistent spells.
Combined with the lack of friendly fire....

Anyway, I highly suspect an issue like this is delaying any implementation of teh Savant PrEs for Srocerers.

[azrael4h]

To call Wall of Fire overpowered is absolutely correct. Pretending it's not overpowered will lead to unhelpful suggestions.

For proof that Wall of Fire is overpowered, just look at how damaging a Wizard can be against a Blue or Black Dragon compared to a Red Dragon.

To make WoF not "overpowered", make the mobs not stand around in it, or run through it when they can rush around.

It's only "overpowered" because the monster AI in DDO is dumber than the monster AI in Treasures of the Savage Frontier, which came out in 1991. There, monsters wouldn't run into persistent AoE spells like Stinking Cloud, but would either go around, or switch to ranged attacks.

In fact, I believe all of the old Gold Box games had superior AI in this manner.

[Cylinwolf]

It's only "overpowered" because

You don't need to use quotes around overpowered like you're being sarcastic when your post indicates that yes, given the AI featured in DDO, WoF is overpowered compared to every other spell in the game.

[Rakian_Knight]

Atm casters are in supperior position to any other class, except in amrath[ and this is going away too with TRing]
Why give them even more power?

Mid game maybe, but at early levels and end levels they are one of the weakest classes because they are limited spell points at early levels and by end levels everything is either immune or has a ton of resistances on top of inflated HP and Saves.

Wall of Fire is overpowered, this isn't a question but a statement and without thinking about Energy Sub. with the most overused, spammed, iconic, spell in the game, you really aren't going to see where this is going to be overpowered. Fix the other spells in the game first before adding metamagic feats that will make every caster a Wall of [element] spam bot.

[Darsith]

oddly enough I use wall of fire, but I was not thinking of the ramifications of a wall of <element>. I was more thinking of a delayed blast <element>ball, or a <element> ray, or a meteor swarm that does <element> and bludgeon damage.

Wall of Fire is nice, but I find that the acid spells are severely lacking after level 3, yes we have cloud kill and acid fog that both deal acid damage, but the best nuke spells that are acid are level 2 and 3. Damage wise they are inferior to what we see of fire spells at late game.

If Energy substitution would be over powered because of wall of fire, then all I ask is for more variations in spell energy. I do not see the savant prestige being viable without the addition of new spells that deal an array of energy types.

[Angelus_dead]

Anyway, I highly suspect an issue like this is delaying any implementation of teh Savant PrEs for Srocerers.

Yes, probably the fastest way to get Savant specialties incoming is to come up with a wording that would allow the Fire Savant bonuses to somehow apply to every fire spell EXCEPT Wall of Fire.

Example 1:
Savant bonuses just don't apply to lingering spells for some reason.

Example 2:
The main damage bonus from Fire Savant is that enemies take one extra tick of 25% the regular damage after being damaged by your fire spells. That would mean DBF does about 125% damage total, but since Wall of Fire may be 20 ticks long anyway, bringing it up to 20.25 ticks worth of damage is unnoticeable.

[Geonis]

Easy way to fix Wall of Fire, and to cause other spells to be used more also-

Wall of Fire "+Caster Level" damage portion is no longer affected by Empower/Maximize/Potency/Enhancements, and at the same time allow other persistent spells to be affected by Empower/Maximize/Potency/Enhancements.

The reason WoF is easy button right now, is because of the min level to cast it, and because it is one of the few persistent spells affected by Empower/Maximize/Potency/Enhancements.

[Angelus_dead]

The reason WoF is easy button right now, is because of the min level to cast it, and because it is one of the few persistent spells affected by Empower/Maximize/Potency/Enhancements.

What are some damaging persistent spells that are not affected by Empower, Maximize, and Potency?