Raid Loot n Resources

[LawstCawz]

OP: /waves .......

/wavesback

If I'm the 12 man in the group, I'm on my monk, the group goes through 2 attempts in an Epic DQ2 and fails both. Clerics/FvS whom are all part of the guild who make up 8:12 in the group ask for resource sharing and compensation. Do I cover some of the costs? What if we completed, should I only cover my share if we completed?

Why did you fail? That would probably be the key point for me.

Ok, example 2. I'm in a shroud group, total pug group. (this one happen recently) I'm on my FvS. I'm the only divine healer in the group. I'm quite experience, so the idea of solo healing is none to worry about. I know that with the extra melee, a 1 rounder should be good in part 4. But instead we have a 3 rounder. So in part 5, the lag (ad you know what I mean by bad lag) is crazy, so the concept on using the pools ad mass heals not dropping, it ends up being a long fight in part 5. I consume a crazy amount of resources, but we complete. Should the group cover my expenses? Should I have not used any? Whose fault is it?

In the shroud, you expect everyone to pull their own large ingredients. In this case, everyone's goals are aligned; completion for essence. On top of that, it's a total pug. I would not use more than 5 majors on a shroud with my divines, but I would have donated my portion of the cost to you.

Resources is a funny thing. I know what I would do in these above situation, no matter what side of the fence I'm on. I think the loot portion of this thread needs not be addressed. Your loot is your loot, resources or not. I do however feel that THE USE OF RESOURCES IN A GROUP SHOULD BE SHARED BY A GROUP, with 1 exception: That if it i mainly a guild raid, they should take 100% of the cost, with the idea that they ask nicely to the 1, 2 or 3 puggers in the raid, that donations are accepted, but not neccessary.

Reasonable enough for me.

New groups probably are going to spend more on resources then some of us vets think they should. But I do recall some of us vets using 100s of pots in the early shroud runs. I remember the cost of resources when we started DQ2 epics, that was like 10-20 pots. But I also remember the very first DQ2 epic completion I was in, where we used less then 5 pots, and that was mainly due to great play and quality ideas and skill. I'm sure some of the more experienced players do not want to spend thier resources on these pug groups, but if they know which groups will be more costly with less chance of success, then they should simply keep away and not join in the first place.

/cheers -Bunk

P.S. Now back to read all thre responses thus far, but frist to fill my glass, in hopes of a nice evening of good quality Thelanis reading.

For new raids, you should be expected to share the resources if running with a top tier guild, even if you're not getting loot, since you probably could not have done it with a lesser krewe.

[Braegan]

Well even though this has been brought up a bazillion times in the past I'll bite...

Should a pugger use resources on a guild run? Yes. You accepted that spot and that role to fill that position to your abilities. If the guild run didn't need you and you were along for the ride that is a different story, but most times the group is filled because it benefits from a full group. To accept any role into a group and not give your best is borderline disrespectful and generally considered lame play.

I will agree there are times when it's not worth resources and the group would be better off restarting/reforming/etc. But if that's the case speak up and voice your opinion, don't (for example) be a sole healer and watch a raid go south with no mana and silently refuse to drink a pot to make it happen.

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Should a pugger be reimbursted for resources used in a run? Yes. This comes with some limitations IMO. If a run just goes sour for reasons out of players hands or to that affect then I have zero problems helping to replenish the stock used. Note I said help, I expect everyone who is on the run to pitch in a little to help out someone that used alot to make the run happen. I don't advocate "buy-ins" to a raid, but at the same time I think it's lamesauce for every melee to justify not helping the healer out after a tough run for example because they have repair costs. Those that have played both know the difference between a few death repairs and aquiring back the 15-25 pots drank isn't even in the same ball park.

Now if for example a healer is being a n00b, overhealing, healing with heighten on, etc then I am reluctant to help out, but most likely will to a much lesser degree.


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Should a pugger feel he/she is entitled to any loot that doesn't fall under their name? No!

Sorry but the loot that falls under your name is the only thing you are entitled to. As a few others have mentioned I too will treat a pugger fairly, but not equally. If I've never met you before, never heard of you and you and one of my buds that I've been playing this game with for years are both looking for the same loot and that loot falls under my name, my friend is going to get it, period.

At those times you can have one of a couple choices:

a) you can accept this as something natural (friends do look out for each other over stangers)

b) you can get butthurt over it, cry in game, on the boards, make a blacklist, etc, etc

Sorry for the epic post, but Bunk did say he was hoping there would be some reading material when he came back

[Clay]

On another note. (in my opinion) Those who are dual boxing and leaving one toon afk through an entire run, should only be allowed to pull loot that nobody wants.

What if one can run two characters at once and can play them both better than half the puggers play one?


This whole argument is silly. Even if your role was crucial... you are NOT entitled to loot that did not drop in your name.

Some of the comments are indicating that all loot should be up for general roll... what a crock.. I like how you look at just a little part of the picture. The situation is not as black and white as people like Gkar are trying to make it out to be. There is no absolute "Puggers CAN'T roll." It is that if an item drops in my name, that a guildie wants/called then no, you can't have it, nor roll on it. If I don't want it, no one in my guild wants it, then you can have/roll on it. How is that any different that Person A wanting and looting, or passing to his friend Person B, or selling it to Person C. It is his loot. My loot is my loot. With regards to resources: did you have an opportunity to open the warded chest? If the answer is "yes" you should contribute.

It's funny how you are trying to make the guilded look grasping, but... you are the ones demanding an opportunity to roll on my loot.

Hey Gkar, can I borrow a million plat? You'd help a guildie, right? No distinctions, right? So random strangers in a raid ar just like guildies, right? After all, you wouldn't want to treat anyone differently, right?

[Pyromaniac]

I always try to ensure healers have resources covered, but there will always be those who are cheap.

[SaIamander]

If your financial position in game is so bad that you can't pony up some plat or a couple pots to cover the expenditures of a raid then maybe you shouldn't be involved with said raid. As far as the loot goes your loot is your loot...if you think that you have a right to another person's loot make your own lfm and pronounce "all your raid loot belong to me"

[J1NG]

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources to a guild's raid if they're not allowed to roll on raid loot?

I'd say most definitely not. This issue is cropping up fairly often with all the newer, less experienced guilds trying to run epics, abbot, and tod. I feel if you needed my toon and resources, you obviously could not have done it otherwise. If you want to fill a piker spot out of the kindness of your heart, then just let the pugger pike.

Well, since you've asked...

From a personal view, if I as a PUG'er joined in a raid, and completed the raid. I am partly responsible for contributing resources back to those that used it in that run. Usually this means the healers; FvS and Clerics. This is regardless of me being able to roll on raid loot.*

Now, I say partly, not as I will only contribute only a bit, or only contribute under certain circumstances, but rather a fair share that is worked out to be happy amoungst all those present. If no one is offering, I will make the obvious comment of "Cheapskates! " or something similiar and foot the entire bill myself.

This is because I personally hold the view that the completion and chance at my own 1/6 item was not done alone (If I could solo ToD, you can bet I won't need you guys! ). However, if I am required to foot the entire bill, I will let the healers/resource users know not to run with the rest again (unless they're in the same guild) as they are simply going to get burned of resources.

If they were in the same guild I would simply deign not to run with them again until they can get their act together better and use less or no resources, or see fit to actually reimburse the resource users. Lets face it, if your guildies are not reimbursing you, why should I, a PUG'er who has nothing really to do with you cover everything? Note the word everything, not something. As a PUG'er, I will try to reimburse the healer types if they let me know they have used resources. I won't reimburse if not notified, as I simply PUG in too many raids. So much so I simply can't afford to give resources away on the premise that resources "may" have been used. Let me know you've used some and expect some back from me.

* Now, if I am expected to contribute resources AND the majority guild run expects me to hand over MY Raid item as well, then that is where I will draw my line. I will comply the one time. And blacklist. No second thoughts there.

Now, those situations I have yet to run into, and hope I never will. Thelanis has been good to me in that case so far.

Now, I am also often a healer, being a FvS, so I have been on the other side of the fence too. And in this particular case, I do not, will not, expect resources from others that were in the group. Even if there was a near wipe and I had to use plenty of resources. Why? Because for me, that's how I run.

I will be happy if people offered to contribute to costs used, but that is all I expect. Some people simply do not have said resources to reimburse me with, what should I do then? Blacklist them? For me, I always go into raids on my FvS expecting to utilise lots of resources. I always have a bare minimum of 10 Major pots in every Raid from ToD upwards. For me, knowing good players about Thelanis is more of a reward than getting resources back that I can get back on my own anyway.

But again, that's me. Everyone has their own margins on where they draw the line. Mine just happens to be what I've written above.

J1NG

[herzkos]

If I needed more resources than a member of the guild, of course I would
contribute. If not, then probably not.

On a side note: Please announce all guild "policies" about raids before the
raid has started but after all members are present in group. Doing otherwise
will result in me avoiding your raids in the future and result in the same treatment
being applied to your guildies in other quests.

My own view, if you need to pug out a raid to be able to complete it then it
is not a "guild run". If all you want is the extra bodies please advertise in
your lfm "pikers wanted" or something to that effect. This will enable you to
treat the non-guildies as less important and shouldn't cause any hard feelings.

[Pyromaniac]

Please announce all guild "policies" about raids before the
raid has started but after all members are present in group. Doing otherwise
will result in me avoiding your raids in the future and result in the same treatment
being applied to your guildies in other quests.

Here's the guilds I can think of that would have guild loot policies, so you're now well informed. Anyone in this thread, feel free to contribute to the list if your guild does as well. Most Thelanis regular raiders and forum goers are pretty aware.

Has a guild or friends before non-guild/non-friend loot policy:
Legion
Pestilence
Archangels some of the time (note that they will tell you at the beginning of the raid if this is in place or not as per the post further down this thread)
Most guilds and regular raiders

Doesn't have a guild or friends before non-guild/non-friend loot policy:
Erebus (see post later in this thread)


I haven't seen a raid out there in forever that requires all players to hand their loot over for some sort of distribution method. They don't fill.

[herzkos]

Here's the guilds I can think of that would have guild loot policies, so you're now well informed. Anyone in this thread, feel free to contribute to the list if your guild does as well. Most Thelanis regular raiders and forum goers are pretty aware.
Has a guild or friends before non-guild/non-friend loot policy:
Legion
Pestilence
Most guilds and regular raiders
Doesn't have a guild or friends before non-guild/non-friend loot policy:
???

the request for information is not merely about loot rolls it's about any specific
policy that a random pugger would need to know. I don't have any problems
with the two listed guilds (that i know of ).
Franky, it's only fair to advise any member of the party what they are getting into
prior to them stepping through the door. This applies (imo) to forum users, non-forum users,
newbs, pile-ons, pikers, VIP, premium, f2p, casual, hardcore, rpg, and any other player category that
you can think of.
Though, I'm not too sure about smurfs . . . i think they're all part of the Secret Military Underground
Resistance Forces and deserve whatever they get . . . . sorry if there is a guild on thelanis named SMURF.

[Clay]

Herzkos, before you join a group... do you ask individual members what their policy is with their loot?--if they will sell it to highest bidder, pass it to a friend etc. No? Then why should any guild members do the same? Simply because the loot that drops in my name is pooled with the other guild mates of mine in the group and is not "mine," does that mean I have to follow different rules from the other people in the group?

The whole argument is redonkulous and feels more like some trolls out looking for the enjoyment of seeing their words on the screen.

I notice also, the finger pointing self-righteous types are generally anonymous and don't put their alts in their sig., and the "selfish-non-sharing-outside-of-guild-loot-*****s" all do. Go figure.

[Sweyn]

If your financial position in game is so bad that you can't pony up some plat or a couple pots to cover the expenditures of a raid then maybe you shouldn't be involved with said raid.

Well see, the situation of the OP doesn't matter if you are Joe Shmoe or the richest guy on the server; it is questioning SHOULD YOU tip in or not?

[herzkos]

Herzkos, before you join a group... do you ask individual members what their policy is with their loot?--if they will sell it to highest bidder, pass it to a friend etc. No? Then why should any guild members do the same? Simply because the loot that drops in my name is pooled with the other guild mates of mine in the group and is not "mine," does that mean I have to follow different rules from the other people in the group?

The whole argument is redonkulous and feels more like some trolls out looking for the enjoyment of seeing their words on the screen.

I notice also, the finger pointing self-righteous types are generally anonymous and don't put their alts in their sig., and the "selfish-non-sharing-outside-of-guild-loot-*****s" all do. Go figure.

nope, I don't go asking every member of the group what their policy is about loot.
please let me re-iterate, if it is considered a "guild" run then pertinent "guild" rules should be made
known to those not in "guild" to let them make an informed decision about whether they want
to participate or not. It's not about the loot here at all. If a pugger is expected to be a piker for
significant parts of the raid they should be advised of that fact. Example, hey puggerA and B, we're gonna need
ya'll to pull the lever on the towers in VON. tell me up front, no problem. ask me in quest, again no problem.
ask me in quest and then take 30 minutes to figure out what to do with the voice/ring/wheels while ignoring
what i'm saying because i'm a pugger and we're gonna have issues. Or at least that group will because they're
gonna have issues whether i'm in the group or not.
Nope, this is not a problem whatsoever for the regular raiders or good guilds however, not everyone or every
guild is all it should be.

I'm hoping the last part wasn't directed at me. I do have some of my alts in my sig. I'm an altaholic though
so many of my characters are subject to change. And frankly I'm not gonna update my sig on the forums
everytime I make a change on any server.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Herzkos, before you join a group... do you ask individual members what their policy is with their loot?--if they will sell it to highest bidder, pass it to a friend etc. No? Then why should any guild members do the same? Simply because the loot that drops in my name is pooled with the other guild mates of mine in the group and is not "mine," does that mean I have to follow different rules from the other people in the group?

The whole argument is redonkulous and feels more like some trolls out looking for the enjoyment of seeing their words on the screen.

I notice also, the finger pointing self-righteous types are generally anonymous and don't put their alts in their sig., and the "selfish-non-sharing-outside-of-guild-loot-*****s" all do. Go figure.

This.
This squared.
+1 squared (still only +1, alas) to you sir.

[Gunga]

I notice also, the finger pointing self-righteous types are generally anonymous and don't put their alts in their sig., and the "selfish-non-sharing-outside-of-guild-loot-*****s" all do. Go figure.

Don't lump me with them.

It's an aesthetic decision.

I am Gunga.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Don't lump me with them.

It's an aesthetic decision.

I am Gunga.

Smile Gunga, you got a +1 for your aesthetic taste

[Clay]

Gunga i know you hate all equally, so no was not lumping you with them.

Nor was I including you Herzkos. i do find your reply a little odd though: what guild rules affect you as a pugger? The loot that drops in your name is yours to do with as you like. If you don't want it, but want to swap with me for my item, it is really none of your business that the loot under my name is not mine. The loot under my name is part of a collective and if a guildmate called it, I have to pass it to him.

There is no need for me to outline that situation if I LFM. Each member of the raid has a chance to pull loot. most often, it seems like loot drops for people other than guildmates... usually the pugger that died the most and contributed the least

[Srozbun]

First off, you are NEVER entitled to someone else's loot. So what if they're a wizard and pulls a SoS? Maybe they plan on TRing to a melee FvS in their next life and just wanted the wiz past life for some spell pen? Granted they may be a new player and not know the loot is BtC and thus useless to them unless they ever want to reroll to a melee. In that case if you sense they're a new player I don't think it's rude to ask them if they know about BtC raid loot and explain the rolling system to them. I think it's a bit premature when people /ragequit and DNGs an entire guild over an incident over raid loot though.

If it's a mostly guild run group and they pass loot between guildies is anyone really surprised? That should be expected.

If it's a mostly guild run group and you're the pugger, should you use your own resources? I always do on my healer. IMO it's just rude not to try to complete if you can. If it's a really terrible group, then it's your call, but if the group is competent (maybe a bit slow on dps or something) but can still get it done, I think you should use whatever means to try to complete.

So far I've had two (pike in asteroids) completions of abbott with experienced guild groups on my FvS. I've used pots in both. Did I mind? Not at all. I knew I would not get anything passed my way from the end chest, but getting the completion out of a difficult raid was well worth it, as well as your own shot of pulling raid loot from the chest.

Now if for example a healer is being a n00b, overhealing, healing with heighten on, etc then I am reluctant to help out, but most likely will to a much lesser degree.

Healing with heighten on doesn't increase the SP cost.

[Surcus1]

If you join an Erebus-raid as a pugger you can generally expect to be able to roll on any item any of us gets in the chest and don`t need with the same probability of success as any guildie..and that is something most of the European guilds have in common, I think.

So there you have an example of the opposite

[Gkar]

Healing with heighten on doesn't increase the SP cost.

Yes it does. The Heal spell can be heightened.

[Braegan]

Healing with heighten on doesn't increase the SP cost.

Mass Cures are not, Heal and I would assume Mass Heal (neither my FvS have it) are affected by heighten. I shouldv'e clairified that.