Barbarian capstone seems to give a hidden haste boost

[woundweaver]

I thought you weren't gonna cry about it?

didnt, and i aint. just wanted to say thanks.

[Cyr]

Can we get a test to see if this stacks with haste/madstone?

[woundweaver]

fact of the matter is, as i originally posted, is that nothing decent can ever be in this game. number crunchers are always psychoanalyzing everything. personally, i dont know how they have time to play. but even the tiniest thing that someone thinks that someone else has over them ALWAYS gets posted here. then nerfed, without a kiss or dinner.

so what if the capstone gives a bit of haste? so does reconstruct for warforged. we are barbs for chrissake, and finally coming into the place we should be in this game. barbs should be doing a little more dps than a fighter. period. why is this even an issue? if you want a barb, roll a barb.

all im saying is posting things that are a bonus, and nothing wrong with, is just asking for a nerf. and it always pi$$e$ many off. so, for those that wanna analyze everything...go play the game for once. have fun. its what you pay for. if you want to talk about things that are odd or need fixing, how about ranged thrown weapons not being able to be repaired? i mean, if you are gonna complain, complain about something worthwhile. not something that isnt a problem. be thankful the **** pre works better than some classes'.

is that enough critical bludgeon damage for ya? i mean, my name IS woundweaver...

[Cetus]

Waaahh this class I never play possibly has some kinda small bug that I otherwise would of never knew about ever if I didn't read the forums.. omg nerf please.

Shhh no one tell him about the secret extra +40 damage we get with the berserker set or the fact our runspeed boosts actaully provide more then you'd think!


Except the fact the capstone doesn't increase glancing blow damage at all.

Well since everyone on this thread seems to know whats intended and whats not like there some kinda dev themselves... I'll chime in too:
The capstone is sposed to provide a +9000% damage increase to glancing blow dmg. So when the uber powerful secret boost we may or may not have gets fixed, they might even remember to fix the fact the capstone is severely broken anyways and thus we gain power either way.

So either way fighter lovers (or should I say barbarian haters?): It's a lose-lose scenario for ya.

Hey shade, when you become an authority on making a max dps character, maybe I'll treat your posts seriously.

For now, you can work on that dual specced spring attack fighter you alway wanted to make.

Back to my point:

If fighters are given specialization enhancements, +8 to str power surge clickies, haste boosts etc for DPS. There is no reason why a Fighters dps cannot compete against a barbs- I showed that ever so clearly in my videos.

Giving barbs the fighter capstone is in imbalance that NEEDS to be reworked, whether it be to improve the fighter or simply remove that from the barb.

Since noone ever knew about it until it has been tested, barbs were just fine grabbing the capstone with the description taken for granted.

Each capstone should retain its individuality. Thats what aggravates me.

[Shade]

Hey shade, when you become an authority on making a max dps character, maybe I'll treat your posts seriously.

So I guess imediately sounds good to me:
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.p...esc&sort=views

[Cetus]

So I guess imediately sounds good to me:
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.p...esc&sort=views

Lol!

If I had all day, I'd start editing.

[MarcusCole]

So I guess imediately sounds good to me:
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.p...esc&sort=views

Maybe it's just me but I take quality over quantity any day.

[Monkey_Archer]

I don't knw why people are complaining. All the number crunching seems to have taken the twitching attack rate with hidden capstone boost anyway. And the majority of those numbers support closeness In dps.... So what's the problem?

I think people are complaining because they either
1) Incorrectly see this as a buff to barbarian dps, putting an already top dps class even higher
or
2) More correctly realize that their non-pure barbarian THF build does 10% less dps then they thought it did.


IMO this should not be "nerfed" it should be "fixed". By removing the 10% attack speed and correctly applying the (currently broken) bonus to glancing blow damage/procs that barbarians should have, pure barbarian dps will remain relatively unchanged (not nerfed). They would likely have slightly less single target dps in exchange for more AOE dps.

Overall, with the 10% bonus to attack speed or with the glancing blow bonus, THF barbarian dps would be fine either way.

The only issue for me is that I assumed that non-pure barbarians, paladins, fighters, etc... all attacked at the same speed. And, even with that inncorrect assumption none of them could compare with a pure barbarians dps. The fact that these already inferior (dps wise) builds are actually 10% lower then expected feels more like a nerf to them

[Dark-Star]

Did some rudamentary testing:

My gtwf barb testing swing speed against a gtwf pure pali.

No buffs, barb swung faster twf.

No buffs, barb swung faster thf (neither of us had any thf feats).

With Zeal cast on the Pali, swing speeds were identical twf and thf as far as we both could tell.

Take it for what it's worth, as this was not done scientifically but with the naked eye, however we both came to the same conclusions watching the swing speeds.

I'm sure someone will post a video to show the community definitely.

[LawstCawz]

I think people are complaining because they either
1) Incorrectly see this as a buff to barbarian dps, putting an already top dps class even higher
or
2) More correctly realize that their non-pure barbarian THF build does 10% less dps then they thought it did.

~snip~

The fact that these already inferior (dps wise) builds are actually 10% lower then expected feels more like a nerf to them

+1 for the words of wisdom. This does not change DPS calcs for pure parbs, only those without the capstone.

[zealous]

it just shows how terrible your logic is.

Haste boost increases damage output by flat 30%.

Damage boost increases damage output by 5damage/swing.

A high end melee will have a damage output of in excess of 100damage/swing on average.

30% of 100 is 30.

30 is way bigger than 5.

30 - 5 is 25, 25 is greater than the average of 6d6.

Think about it
...
That taking damage is somewhat inconsequential would hopefully be viewed as something undesired from a "fun and exciting point of view".

That low defences is somewhat inconsequential would hopefully be viewed as something undesired from a "fun and exciting point of view".

If automatically taking damage and having low defences have an impact, there should hopefully be a trade off for it.

[Progen]

For what it's worth you have to ask yourself if the barbs more hp and dr is better than the fighters possibility of sacrificing dps for ac.... otherwise what does the fighter get?

Now weather or not the barb or the fighter should be more survivable and less dps or which should be less survivable with more dps is up for debate (although personally think barbs should be ultimate damage dealers)

If anyone has arguments for fighters being more defensive than barb would like to hear them.

Keep in mind also that 2hf is less investment in stat points than the 2wf we are talking about ... I guess another question is if the 2hf barb does more damage then the 2hf fighter.... of course I guess the extra fighter bonus feats have a huge impact as well.

Just goes to show how they are two different classes (surprise surprise). Of course If barbs gave up some of their defenses they should definitely get more dps. But at this point I see survivability and easier stat point spread as a trade off for slightly slightly more dps and tons more feats.

[Monkey_Archer]

Did some rudamentary testing:

My gtwf barb testing swing speed against a gtwf pure pali.

No buffs, barb swung faster twf.

No buffs, barb swung faster thf (neither of us had any thf feats).

With Zeal cast on the Pali, swing speeds were identical twf and thf as far as we both could tell.

Take it for what it's worth, as this was not done scientifically but with the naked eye, however we both came to the same conclusions watching the swing speeds.

I'm sure someone will post a video to show the community definitely.

Hmm, interesting...

Seems TWF barbs might actually be higher dps then originally thought then...
Might even put THF barbs behind now..
Will have to reconsider the value of tempest barbs and 18/2 barbs...

[Monkey_Archer]

If anyone has arguments for fighters being more defensive than barb would like to hear them.

A fighter that has defense (ac) will never come even remotely close to barb dps.
A fighter with max dps, will not have nearly the same defense that a barb gets (hp an dr)

[Progen]

Which is of course the tradeoff. So just some stuff to think about before demanding that barbs be more dps ect with the current way fighters and barbs work.

[Cetus]

A fighter that has defense (ac) will never come even remotely close to barb dps.
A fighter with max dps, will not have nearly the same defense that a barb gets (hp an dr)

I can justify counter to your second point. I sit at mid 900's sustained hp- watch my dragon video on the fighter forums.

[Progen]

In which case you trade off your bonus feats and the boni boil down to a very small increase in damage for a relatively decent amount of DR.

[zealous]

A fighter that has defense (ac) will never come even remotely close to barb dps.
A fighter with max dps, will not have nearly the same defense that a barb gets (hp an dr)

This is a separate issue I would say.

With AC having such a low importance due to
A. Mob tohit
B. Massive healing potential.

With hp having such a high importance due to
A. Massive healing potential
B. Lag/healer responsiveness
(C. Mob damage)

Would high end game play be much different if incoming damage to characters simply was replaced with a %death on hit dependant on the amount of hp you have?. That way it'd be clearer. If you like to watch red bars the %death could be a timed debuff, you wouldn't die til timer was gone, healing could be replaced with a remove death debuff.


A simplified system like that could remove alot of computation thus reducing lag^^

[edit:]Imo the game would be more interesting if you couldn't just heal through everything and if there was a tradeoff to foregoing defences.

[Boromirs]

I see fighters as a middle ground. Not as good in DPS as barbarian but not terrible in the defense department. As of now however, fighters have NO role in either defense or offense. Mainly because, a minute increase in AC doesn't matter toward endgame and DR is more important. Barbarians have all the right stuff and none of the wrong ones toward end game, best DPS, low AC (doesn't matter), high free DR (matters). Further, due to their insane strength they can jack up their DC (read: skill checks for trip/sunder/stun) to higher levels then even a specced out fighter.

Summarize,

Barbarians = Every possible advantage in combat over fighter.

Fighter = they get a big fat 0, I challenge you to name 1 thing that a fighter just hands down beats the barb in.

[Progen]

I see fighters as a middle ground. Not as good in DPS as barbarian but not terrible in the defense department. As of now however, fighters have NO role in either defense or offense. Mainly because, a minute increase in AC doesn't matter toward endgame and DR is more important. Barbarians have all the right stuff and none of the wrong ones toward end game, best DPS, low AC (doesn't matter), high free DR (matters). Further, due to their insane strength they can jack up their DC (read: skill checks for trip/sunder/stun) to higher levels then even a specced out fighter.

Summarize,

Barbarians = Every possible advantage in combat over fighter.

Fighter = they get a big fat 0, I challenge you to name 1 thing that a fighter just hands down beats the barb in.

Haven't we just gone over this? DPS (sure sure argue all you want on this) AND FEATS (if this isn't a handdowns winner I don't know what is)!

EDIT: also some minor ones... increased to-hit (calculations have been done in other threads... wins by like 2-3) increased crit-range (on crit effects), and of course haste boost for faster swinging of vorpals and such. (also falls under dps)