Pure fighter Kensai Arcane Archer

[Diib]

^^ It does stack, its just that the ranger capstone isn't good enough to make up for the extra damage (crit range, etc._ a fighter can do. Plus the fighters get haste boost.

Look, a ranger is much more versatile. The spell selection, the ability to switch between melee and range, evasion, sprint boosts. It can do a lot of things.

But just in the case of making a character to maximize range damage, the fighter is better. The fighter has more hp and strength, and if ALL you want to do with your character is kill things with a bow, go AKA. Do you really JUST want to fire your bow through 20 levels? In that case, go ahead and min/max an elf fighter.

I like that a ranger is more well rounded. But rangers aren't the top damaging aarchers.

[Logic]

^^ It does stack, its just that the ranger capstone isn't good enough to make up for the extra damage (crit range, etc._ a fighter can do. Plus the fighters get haste boost.

Look, a ranger is much more versatile. The spell selection, the ability to switch between melee and range, evasion, sprint boosts. It can do a lot of things.

But just in the case of making a character to maximize range damage, the fighter is better. The fighter has more hp and strength, and if ALL you want to do with your character is kill things with a bow, go AKA. Do you really JUST want to fire your bow through 20 levels? In that case, go ahead and min/max an elf fighter.

I like that a ranger is more well rounded. But rangers aren't the top damaging aarchers.

OK I can agree with this. I can see how the fighter damage is higher.

Ranger gets +3dmg from rams, 10-12% alacrity from capstone, and favored enemy.
Fighter gets +4 seeker, +1.5dmg from str enh, +4dmg from weapon spec feats, +2dmg from weapon spec enh, +2dmg from kensai I and II, +1 crit range from kensai III, +30% haste buffs, +4dmg during power surge, etc.

[Ystradmynach]

There's not an abundance of feats by any means if you add up all the ranged feats and also want to have melee and UMD.

Also keep in mind that as a 20 ranger you can pick up past life paladin and extend spell (thats ~14 minutes of +3 hit and +3 damage). Most other AA specs are feat starved and can't really do this without completely abandoning melee.

Assuming you grab a level of ranger for bow strength, you have ten free fighter feats to grab over 18 levels of fighter, and the following ranged combat feats

1 point blank shot
2 rapid shot
3 precise shot
4 improved precise shot
5 manyshot
6 weapon focus(ranged)
7 weapon specialization(ranged)
8 greater weapon focus(ranged)
9 greater weapon specialization(ranged)
10 superior weapon focus(ranged)

I'm not including shoot on the run, since it isn't worth taking given the prerequisites. So that leaves seven feats, plenty for toughness and to take either the twf or thf tree, with even a couple of feats left over for whatever else you want.

[Logic]

Assuming you grab a level of ranger for bow strength, you have ten free fighter feats to grab over 18 levels of fighter, and the following ranged combat feats

1 point blank shot
2 rapid shot
3 precise shot
4 improved precise shot
5 manyshot
6 weapon focus(ranged)
7 weapon specialization(ranged)
8 greater weapon focus(ranged)
9 greater weapon specialization(ranged)
10 superior weapon focus(ranged)

I'm not including shoot on the run, since it isn't worth taking given the prerequisites. So that leaves seven feats, plenty for toughness and to take either the twf or thf tree, with even a couple of feats left over for whatever else you want.

Yes you can get more feats by taking 1 ranger instead of 1 rogue.

With the 10 fighter feats you list and 7 free feats...
1: Probably want improved critical ranged as well.
2-4: TWF, ITWF, GTWF is 3 more
5: Toughness

That means you have 2 more feats for...
bow strength (if no level of ranger)
IC melee
OTWF (for epic to hit)
quickdraw (for cooldown reduction)
power attack
any past lifes (i.e. paladin + extend spell)
skill focus UMD
shot on the run + pre-req's
melee weapon focus + melee weapon specialization
saves

Hence not an "abundance" of feats because you actually got some tough feat choices to make.

[Ystradmynach]

Yes you can get more feats by taking 1 ranger instead of 1 rogue. But I specifically said "melee and UMD".

With the 10 fighter feats you list and 7 free feats...
1: If you take 1 rogue for UMD then you must take bow strength.
2: Probably want improved critical ranged as well.
3-5: TWF, ITWF, GTWF is 3 more
6: Toughness

That means you have 1 more feat for...

****, I forgot about improved critical. Still, I don't see why you would need to take rogue when UMD is a class skill of bards, which also qualifies for the magic requirements of AA, so you would actually have two feats left over.

Sure, that may not be enough to master everything, but you certainly will be able to do more than just shoot things. Hell, even if you ignored UMD, you would still have access to both the ranger and bards spell list (at least in scroll and wand form).

[Logic]

****, I forgot about improved critical. Still, I don't see why you would need to take rogue when UMD is a class skill of bards, which also qualifies for the magic requirements of AA, so you would actually have two feats left over.

Sure, that may not be enough to master everything, but you certainly will be able to do more than just shoot things. Hell, even if you ignored UMD, you would still have access to both the ranger and bards spell list (at least in scroll and wand form).

Oh yep you are right. Forgot bard gets UMD. Let me fix post.

So yeah 2 feats left over you are right.

[Logic]

****, I forgot about improved critical. Still, I don't see why you would need to take rogue when UMD is a class skill of bards, which also qualifies for the magic requirements of AA, so you would actually have two feats left over.

Sure, that may not be enough to master everything, but you certainly will be able to do more than just shoot things. Hell, even if you ignored UMD, you would still have access to both the ranger and bards spell list (at least in scroll and wand form).

I get what you guys are saying now. I guess you can do AA either way... I always assumed 20 ranger was the only way to go and anything other AA build was different just for the sake of being different. But what you're saying makes sense.

Hmmm.

I suppose 12 fighter/6 ranger/2 rogue or monk would be OK too. But you lose 1 crit range :[

[sephiroth1084]

I get what you guys are saying now. I guess you can do AA either way... I always assumed 20 ranger was the only way to go and anything other AA build was different just for the sake of being different. But what you're saying makes sense.

Hmmm.

I suppose 12 fighter/6 ranger/2 rogue or monk would be OK too. But you lose 1 crit range :[

I'm kind of curious as to which build comes out on top in terms of DPS:
12 fighter/6 ranger/2 whatever
12 ranger/6 fighter/2 whatever
18 fighter/1 bard/1 whatever (maybe bard 2)

[zealous]

OK I can agree with this. I can see how the fighter damage is higher.

Ranger gets +3dmg from rams, 10-12% alacrity from capstone, and favored enemy.
Fighter gets +4 seeker, +1.5dmg from str enh, +4dmg from weapon spec feats, +2dmg from weapon spec enh, +2dmg from kensai I and II, +1 crit range from kensai III, +30% haste buffs, +4dmg during power surge, etc.

Fighter 12 gets: +4 seeker, +1.5dmg from str enh, +4dmg from weapon spec feats, +2dmg from weapon spec enh, +2dmg from kensai I and II, +30% haste buffs, +4dmg during power surge, etc.
Will loose +1 range which would equate to some 5-6 damage/attack, 9 for 2h.

Question is though, can you gain that 5-6 damage/attack back from 8 other levels?
Paladin: Defenitely against EO/undead, with buff juggling and a slight cha investment.
DF:2 damage, DM: 2, KOTCI:3.5, Dsac(melee):17.5/<attacks per cooldown>
Ranger: Defenitely against FE, more or less against non-FE
Rams:3 damage, FE: 6 damage against 2 FE, 1-4 feats depending on if you take tempest or not

And of course you can do e.g. 7rogue/barb/monk + 1 bard as well as other possible class combinations.

Depends a bit on what focus you decide on. I.e. Melee focus with strong raged or ranged focus with strong melee.

[Diib]

Especially as a lot of the later good bows have effects that proc on crits, I wouldn't want to sacrifice the kensai III crit boost.

I'm sure there are lots of clever elf 12/6/2 versions which would each bring a slightly different playstyle and skillset allowing you to customize your range experience. I'm not sure any /6 is worth really losing that crit range.

I've played a ranged ranger, and more recently an elf fighter aa. I could really tell the difference for the bow damage I was doing, especially later mid levels (12-20ish) I just took off with what I could do with fighter. Haste boosts working around many shot cooldowns and ridiculous bonuses on my bow damage. Ranged ranger you just end up in melee more, but you have a lot more spell options.

My experience is only anecdotal, but I'm sure that the numbers bear out behind the scenes. Fighter is a better archer than ranger for pure bow damage.

If you were going to go 12/6/2 you could bring in builds that had 2 rogue or monk to bring back evasion to the build, which is nice and adds flexibility. But I doubt you would actually make something that truly made up for the loss of crit range in pure bow damage numbers.

Edit: I did my fighter aa with 1 wizard for the free feat (mental toughness for imbues) and 1 rogue, and had a decent int so I could double as a trap monkey. I think 1 bard/1 ranger sounds like an excellent alternative.

[sephiroth1084]

Maxed DPS aside, I'd consider Bard 2 to be worth consideration--enhancements are available for +1 damage from your song (not a bad filler in a group without a bard), and Wand and Scroll Mastery I for +30% effectiveness on a lot of your UMDing.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

lol, aesop beat me to it but the first thing i thought of when i saw your enhancements was....wait a second, those imbues cost mana....and fighter isnt gonna get any. sucks ;(

just go ranger. 25% archer alacrity far outweighs 10%. plus you get all those cool spells - resists, rams might, FoM, runspeed, blah blah blah blah, blah...

i see no reason to be an archer if you arent a ranger. you still get full GTWF as a ranger archer anyway, so this build concept is basically just a gimped form of what a ranger would be.

well, the kensai dmg is nice ofc so i take that back, it wont be as fast hitting but it will hit harder.
maybe it works out to be more dps but i think the amount of more dps itll give compared to that ranger archer alacrity is so small that its not so noticeable. and you lose all the ranger abilities (evasion, better saves, and those spells).
not to mention - favored enemy damage of +12 with 5 picks of favored enemies is pretty **** near impossible to beat even with kensai and all those weapon spec feats.
so no. i repeat what i said before. only a ranger arcane archer is even worth building. 5 FE's is plenty that you'll always be hitting FE mobs when it counts.

My LRed old Ftr archer is now Ftr15/Rgr1/Wiz1 Kensei II, AA.
He's a darn good archer. Who does some nice damage numbers with a bow.

But he's a one trick pony who has severe limitations.

IMO the Rgr is a better choice. The Rgr may not be the best possible DPS archer build, but the Rgr's other benefits make a much better all around char IMO. And I think the capstone may put the Rgr over the top anyway.

[AylinIsAwesome]

For feats, my AKA is taking:

Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Toughness
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Weapon Specialization: Ranged
Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged
Superior Weapon Focus: Ranged
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength (from level 1 Ranger)
Manyshot
Combat Expertise
Power Attack

and

THF
ITHF
GTHF

(Though I may decide to change those to Skill Focus: Intimidate, Bullheaded and Improved Critical: Slashing, depending on how much I do which role as I level further, and whether or not I can rework the gear to get an AC that will work on Epics.)

I tested the 20 ranger capstone with my AA. I timed 400 arrow shots. I measured the 10-12% that people are reporting, not the 25% that the capstone description says. The testing I did was without the ToD set and without haste or any sort of other alacrity.

If you run the DPS numbers please post them. I'm curious how 20 ranger compares to other AA specs.

I can definitely post the calculations I did when I get home tonight. However I did it before I even rolled up my toon, and they represent a "best case" scenario of hitting on a 2, full gear benefits (like bloodstone, the AA set, that sort of thing), so take all of that at that value.

[Diib]

My LRed old Ftr archer is now Ftr15/Rgr1/Wiz1 Kensei II, AA.
He's a darn good archer. Who does some nice damage numbers with a bow.

But he's a one trick pony who has severe limitations.

IMO the Rgr is a better choice. The Rgr may not be the best possible DPS archer build, but the Rgr's other benefits make a much better all around char IMO. And I think the capstone may put the Rgr over the top anyway.

I agree completely. Ranger is much more well rounded and I really missed the spell selection later on. And if you like to kite vs. standing and shooting the ranger's sprint boosts are great. And even all of the skill points meant that I could cross class a little more.

The fighter is better at ONLY ranged damage really, which I keep trying to tell people. But it really is a lot better. By level 14 or so I was significantly out damaging what I could do with a bow as a pure level 14 ranger. FE are great and all, but how often while leveling is that really what you are facing? 20% of the time? 30%? Sure a ranger can sorta kinda close the gap in Vale and Amarath, but those aren't all of endgame anymore.

But there seem to be a lot of ranger players out there who think that rangers make the best bow dps. It is simply not the case. AA ranger can do a lot of things, but top bow dps is not one of them. As I've advised people in game and even mentioned in this thread... what do you want to do with your char? If ALL you want to do is fire a bow through 20 levels, thats the only place the fighter version shines imo (as you say, one trick pony). Even though you can also pick up twf kopesh/scimitar use with the fighter build, the loss of the spells really hurts the utility.

[sephiroth1084]

Well, a fighter AKA's melee ability will be way behind that of a ranger, simply because you're not adding any damage to the fighter's attacks from class abilities, while the ranger is still getting his (almost free) +14 from FE in some cases.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Well, a fighter AKA's melee ability will be way behind that of a ranger, simply because you're not adding any damage to the fighter's attacks from class abilities, while the ranger is still getting his (almost free) +14 from FE in some cases.

Don't forget that you can build it so that you can get the TWF line and Khopesh Prof, as well as Improved Critical: Slashing.

Not to mention that Power Surge will help Khopeshes too, as well as Haste Boosts.

[sephiroth1084]

Don't forget that you can build it so that you can get the TWF line and Khopesh Prof, as well as Improved Critical: Slashing.

Not to mention that Power Surge will help Khopeshes too, as well as Haste Boosts.

Yeah, but so can the Ranger. I'm not saying it isn't viable, just that the comments about fighters being able to pick up melee DPS are kind of misleading, since you may have the feats to enable it, but don't have any additional damage to support it very well, making them about as good with the melee weapons as, say, a bard. It's useful to note, but not something to excited about.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Yeah, but so can the Ranger. I'm not saying it isn't viable, just that the comments about fighters being able to pick up melee DPS are kind of misleading, since you may have the feats to enable it, but don't have any additional damage to support it very well, making them about as good with the melee weapons as, say, a bard. It's useful to note, but not something to excited about.

Well, Power Surge works with both the bow and Khopeshes, so don't discount that. Also with Haste Boost +30% attack speed, that's pretty powerful as well.

Also since picking up Kensei automatically gives +3 to combat tactics, the AKA can also use a weighted 5% weapon and a weapon of Vertigo on trash.

That's way better than a Bard in melee.


While not nearly as good a Fighter who's specced for those things, but they can still definitely hold their own in melee.

[zealous]

Yeah, but so can the Ranger. I'm not saying it isn't viable, just that the comments about fighters being able to pick up melee DPS are kind of misleading, since you may have the feats to enable it, but don't have any additional damage to support it very well, making them about as good with the melee weapons as, say, a bard. It's useful to note, but not something to excited about.

well...

...would AA make elf the preferred race for hmmm...e.g. the monster?
unarmed dps is quite close to khopesh dps against 0% fort, dps higher with unarmed against 50%+ fort.
http://community.codemasters.com/for...-mod-10-a.html

This frees up 3 feats for imp.prec even though you need a +4 tome, stat rearrangement or TR to get dex for it.

Possibly drop IC: pierce,L.ref and G.wfoc:khopesh for wfoc,wspec,gwspec ranged?
righto...need to drop either gwspec or stunning blow for MT to qualify for AA i guess.

Dunno what a appropriate enhancement layout would be but from the monster template going elf instead of WF would cost some hp and leave enough ap for ranged stuff?
...
Summary
*Multishot is like really good if you got the timingz for it
*It's even bettah if you're a elf
*AA is liek awsum for monk+ranger 6 splashed elves
*AA isn't as good for rangers due to loosing tempest

[AylinIsAwesome]

Well zealous, if you're taking the Arcane Archer PrE (either Ranger or Elf version) then you can't get Tempest.

At which point it's not really the Monster anymore, and you're missing out on the improved crit range full Kensei offers as well as the speed bonus that full Ranger grants.