Another "Help me with my Pali build" Thread

[CrunK.]

Started playing when the game went F2P back in September. Just got back into it within the past month.

I went with the default Paladin Truthbringer path and stayed on it until it wanted me to choose a weapon proficiency in a weapon I did not recognize. So I chose Great Crossbow instead. From then on when I went to level it no longer offered me the truthbringer path. So I made choices and spent points based upon my limited knowledge.

At this point I don't know if I have a decent build or not. I want to know if I am still good to go, fixable or hopeless and need to start over.

I would like to show the details of my character here. Is there an easy way for me to copy my characters complete information here so I can get some feed back?

[Arvess]

put your characters name and people who want to can look on my.ddo.com and look at some things about your toon.

[Ninetoes]

http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/gnolan/

[CrunK.]

doh! Thanks for that I had forgot about that. But still it does not show enough. I guess I gotta break down and take the time to type it all up.

[rover223]

I don't know why they even bother with great crossbows in the game but as a pally you're a melee type, khopesh or dwarven axe is the preferred weapon of choice. I play a sword and board pally and do just fine in the kill count and can stand in against the end bosses. If you've not been playing for a while you might want to examine some of the suggested builds here on the forums. A 28 point build pally is a challenge to make work but it can work, I would suggest a 15 or 16 starting strength, 12 wis, 15 or 16 charisma and absolute minimum 12 con. You're not going to be dextrous with a 28 point build or intelligent. Making a human will get you a skill point back with a low int.

Charisma becomes very important later in the game when your smites with the right weapons like a dwarven axe and damage enhancement clickies you can be smiting for over 600 points. Don't short change yourself on the charisma.

I hope this helps a bit there are some good builds here on the forum have a look at them but get rid of that great crossbow, if you want a unique ranged pally build repeaters are the only way to go.

Hope this helps some.

[CrunK.]

Ok, I have managed to replicate my toon courtesy of the DDO Character Planner. Keep in mind my goal in doing this was to have something to show where my Pali is at currently. The level at which it shows a particular change does not mean thats what I actually did at that time. I had to mess with it for a while to get it to look like my toon. I did come across one discrepancy that I couldn't solve. The hit points in the Character Planner are 3 points higher than they are in my actual toon.

About the Great Crossbow: IT RAWKS! Seriously though I do like it. I have a Keen Great crossbow. Normally in open area situations it has been really helpful. I can get 2 to 3 shots off before the bad guys close in on me. It may not be much but it hasn't not hindered me yet. It cant be so terrible that a Paladin is using a Great crossbow, is it? Any ways thats why I started thsi thread!

So here is my toon stripped down with no gear. How does he look so far?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page
Gnolan Draconiac
Level 9 Lawful Good Human Male
(9 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 170
Spell Points: 126 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 9
Will: 10
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
               Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 9)
Strength             16                    17
Dexterity            10                    12
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               14                    14
Charisma             14                    14
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
               Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 9)
Balance               0                     1
Bluff                 2                     2
Concentration         1                     6
Diplomacy             2                     2
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     2
Heal                  2                     3
Hide                  0                     1
Intimidate            4                     7.5
Jump                  3                     3
Listen                2                     2
Move Silently         0                     1
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  2                     2.5
Swim                  3                     3
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      4                     7.5
 
Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
 
Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands
 
Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
 
Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead
 
Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
 
Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Great Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease
 
Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
 
Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
 
Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Paladin Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Concentration I
Enhancement: Paladin Heal I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light I

[Xeraphim]

9 levels of Cheddar, some levels of Colby Jack, and you're cheesy! Dangerously cheesy.

[Xeraphim]

I crossed my eyes at this:

Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Great Crossbow

I HOPE THAT WAS A MISTAKE AND YOU TOOK KHOPESH!!!



I'd personally respec into a THF build with your stats, since sword and board isn't enough DPS to warrant participation in upper level raids(Gee, thanks devs...). Grab some Greatswords and Greataxes, Falchions, exchange that exotic prof. out for Improved Two handed Fighting, swap Weapon Focus Slash for Two Handed Fighting(Moar glancing blows with THF, ITHF, GTHF, and folks have told me that KotC procs on a glancing blow ).....

If you were on Argonnessen I could help out by hurling large weapons at your mailbox... but you are on Sarlona! I hope a doter can ravage your Unconfirmed section with donations.


FYI My THF KoTC can be found by using http://www.ddostuff.com/myddo.aspx, default Argonnessen, and searching Mylvania. Note: She is lvl 11 right now, not lvl 5(does it ever update?). No, she is not very well twinked. I can fix that but don't care enough, so *S T F U* powergamers.



If your DEX was base 15 or 16, I could recommend a Tome from the DDO Store and toss a Two Weapon concept at you instead.

[CrunK.]

Thanks for the prompt response and the information. Naturally Xeraphim’s response brought up even more questions. Hopefully someone will have the time to answer my onslaught of questions.

What is Khopesh? Just doesn’t even sound cool enough to warrant my interest.

A couple of people have said the Great Crossbow is bad. I ask again, why? No one has said why. There have been many times when I am the first one shooting with my +2 Keen Great Crossbow, even before the guys with the long bows, and hitting targets. IDK if it’s because I play on a 32” monitor and can see an enemy when it’s just over the size of a spec on my screen or what. Heck I was even considering taking Rapid Reload. Would that be so bad?

I do use a Greatsword primarily. It’s a +4 Seeker Greatsword. And I haven’t had trouble in being 1st or 2nd in kills in any of the parties I am in. Would just swapping out Weapon Focus Slash for Two Handed Fighting be good enough?

If I posted the stats of my guy geared up would that make a difference in my toons “cheesy” title?

Give me a day or so and I will be able to put into words exactly what I “imagined” which hopefully will give some direction to the advice that I get from the community.

Thanks in advance!

[Dartanyn]

...remember that this is your first character. You're NOT "unsalvageable". You do have one kind've off-the-wall feat, but on the bright side, it's one that you seem to enjoy! Most of the "uber" paladin builds on this forum have an extra feat slot that they fill with "Skill Focus: Use Magic Device" anyway -- and it's not like not having that feat is super-duper critical to your 28 point build anyhow.

Right now, your character is fine. It's not great by any stretch of the imagination, and it won't shine really brightly in later levels or higher difficulties, but it's fine. It's actually better than my first character looked.

If I could give you any advice, it would be to look over Junts' http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542 kick arse paladin guide (here on the forums) where he dissects the paladin's abilities and feats and enhancements and such. There's a great deal of good information there.

Also, some light at the end of the tunnel. When your current character accumulates 400 total favor points (by doing quests for the various houses/factions in Stormreach), you'll receive a in-game mail from the Dungeon Master informing you that the drow elf race is now available for you to play. The drow elf race just so happens to make FANTASTIC paladins because of their inherent racial modifiers: a natural +2 to dex, +2 to intelligence, and +2 to the all-important charisma.

That makes it relatively easy to start with pretty great stats. I too had a human paladin (my second character) and took her up to level 8 until I got the drow mail. I rerolled her as a drow and the difference was pretty dramatic. I enjoy her much more now. My drow's starting stats were:

Str: 15
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 8 (I'll explain this in a sec)
Cha: 17

The high charisma is important for several reasons -- charisma is really the driving force behind a paladin. It affects her smites (for to-hit purposes), her saves (divine grace, baby), and the effectiveness of her lay on hands ability (multiplicatively!). LoH is an equation (lemme see if I remember it): Cha modifier * (10+ pal level). As you can see, every modifier you can eke out becomes increasingly more important as you gain levels. She's level 8 now, and has a 20 str and 20 cha with all her gear on. It's nice.

The low starting wisdom is easily dealt with by carrying around a wand of owl's wisdom, which you can use without failure. Go into a tavern/inn/bar, cast the spell, and memorize your spells. In a dungeon, cast your owl's wisdom and then whatever spells you want. I'm using about 3 wands every two levels, and they're relatively cheap for the functionality. They're certainly cheaper than a +wis item, though I'll move up to one of those eventually when I can afford it.

Anyhow, I've gone kinda far off track. I'm new at this game, too, but for my opinion, if the feat gives you that much enjoyment -- keep it. So you miss out on +3 to UMD. Your character won't suffer that much for it.

Good gaming, bro.

-Dartanyn

[CrunK.]

At this point it would seem the best thing to do is start from scratch and get help and learn as I build up.

Since I have unlocked the Drow I am going to go with the Drow Pali as suggested by Junts in his "A Guide To Creating Paladins." His thread is very informative and is allot to digest.

This is Junts build sample I am going off of:

VII. Sample 20 TWF Drow DPS


Lawful Good Drow Paladin 20

Str: 15 + 5 level ups (+6 item, +2 tome, +3 exceptional= 30, 32 with a +3 tome)
Dex: 16 (+1 tome qualifies for twf)
Con: 12 (+6 item, +2 tome for 20)
Int: 10 (2 skill points; +2 tome helps for extra)
Wis: 8 (+2 tome and +6 item is 16)
Cha: 17 (+3 tome for divine might 3; 26-28 charisma equipped)

Feats:

1: Toughness
3: Two-Weapon Fighting
6: Extend Spell
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12: Improved critical: Piercing weapons
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18: Power Attack

Skills: Balance and Use Magic Device, every level. 2 ranks in tumble to enable tumbling at lv 1 (come from balance). With +2 tome, get some jump.

Enhancements:

Knight of the Chalice 1-3 (8 ap)
Courage of Good 1-2 (3 ap, pre-req)
Energy of the Templar 1-2 (3 ap, pre-req)
Divine Sacrifice 1-3 (6 ap)
Divine Might 1-4 (10 ap)
Extra Lay on Hands 1-3 (6 ap)
Extra Smiting 1-4 (10 ap, pre-req)
Exalted Smiting 1-4 (10 ap)
Racial Toughness 1-2 (3 AP)
Paladin Toughness 1-2 (3 ap)
Follower of the Sovereign Host (2 ap, pre-req)
Unyielding Sovereignty (4 ap, pre-req)
Paladin Weapons of Good (2 ap)
Drow weapon damage 1-2 (6 ap)
Paladin Charisma I (if needed for even)
2 action points of your choice

My first question is how should I divide up my 8 lvl 1 skill points? Answered by sephiroth1084 in another thread: "Max out UMD at each level (4 points for 2 ranks at 1, 1 point for 1/2 a rank at each subsequent level), put 2 points into Balance for 1 rank, and 2 points into Tumble for 1 rank."

[Dartanyn]

Well, now I'm kind've saddened to see that great crossbow go to waste.

Regardless, I'm sure you'll have a blast with your new paladin (I know I am). I hope you'll find room in the new one to fit in the EWP: Great Crossbow Proficiency feat. Just for flava.

Have fun!

-n

[Vormaerin]

Sorry, fighters do great crossbow for flava, not paladins :P

[CrunK.]

Well I am still using him. Since this thread I have been paying allot more attention to my standings. I found that I am 2nd and 3rd in kills in the groups I was in over the weekend. I still like the Pali Great Crossbow mix. When I do get my Drow Pali up and going I will re do this one.

But still no one has said what is wrong with a Paladin Using a Great Crossbow. It's almost as bad as the church "we don't know why its bad we just know its bad, so there:" As detailed and long winded as some of the threads are around here I figured someone would have been able to answer that by now.

[Gercho]

In general ranged combat is much lower dps than melee, in top of that most of paladins special abilities dont apply to ranged combat (smites, sacrifices and buffs), you can add to that that paladins are feat starved usually, so you dont have spare feats to spend on a weapon that if you use it you are punishing your own dps.

So, using a ranged weapon is ok in certain specific situations where you need to fight someone unreachable by melee. In any other situation you will do much less dps. For those specific situations, is not worthy to spend a feat.
For example, in your build i guess you fight with a Two Handed weapon (maybe you still use shield and sword in some situations, but soon wont be worthy) so you should have the feats that improve the THF fighting, that you will use 98% of the time instead of a feat that you should be using only 2% of the time.

I see from your build that you appreciate UMD, a feat invested on skill focus umd would be of great use for you, since you are pure pally and cant have max ranks.

So in general, every paladin wants to get these feats at least:

Power Attack
Improved Critical
3 thf line or twf line
Extend Spell
Toughness

that covers the 7 level feats, humans have one feat more that they will use for khopesh if they are twf, or sf:umd if they are thf, i m not saying that 100% of the paladins should have exactly those feats, but is what most have (unless splashing monk or fighter for more feats). Some people will want to trade extend or sf umd for something else, but a crossbow profficiency is not ever worth...
(btw weapon focus is not worthy either, just that ewp heavy crossbow is more rare to see)

[Vormaerin]

But still no one has said what is wrong with a Paladin Using a Great Crossbow. It's almost as bad as the church "we don't know why its bad we just know its bad, so there:" As detailed and long winded as some of the threads are around here I figured someone would have been able to answer that by now.

Oh, its been answered many times though not necessarily in a thread called "Why Great crossbow sucks for paladins." :P

Generally, there are three issues: 1) Ranged Combat is weak in DDO; 2) Great Crossbows are weak by ranged standards; 3) Paladins don't have ranged weapon synergy.

1) The original lead dev (long gone) was paranoid about kiting and perching (unless done by the bad guys). He apparently decided that ranged combat needed to be less damaging than melee combat to offset these "advantages." So no one, regardless of build/gear/skill, can make a ranged combatant that is as effective as a melee one. (You can make one that is decent and fun to play, assuming you don't have the 'must rule the DPS world' gene).

2) Great Crossbows cost a feat and are only a little more effective than other options. Yes, the damage is pretty good. But the rate of fire is not and you can make up a lot of that damage difference with Strength, which applies to all throwing weapons and, if you have Bow Str feat, to bows. But it does not apply to crossbows. Spending that feat on bow strength for longbow or for a repeating crossbow feat would be more effective.

3) Paladins don't get any ranged attack benefits and no bonus feats. Smite and Sacrifice don't work with crossbows. I don't think Zeal does either. And you need a lot of feats: EWP: Great Crossbow, Improved Crit: Ranged, Rapid Reload for starters. A fighter just has a much easier time with taking all those feats. Plus they can get Kensai: Great Crossbow Mastery if you really want to go nuts on it.

[Dartanyn]

Guys, it's not going to be his major combat mode. He only has it for two reasons: 1) he just likes getting off three or so shots before they close to melee, and 2) he found a keen great crossbow that he really likes and he wants to use it.

That's it. He's not using ranged to the exclusion of melee, he's just using it until melee is imminent. And he LIKES it. In my ever-so-humble opinion, that's worth the use of the extra human bonus feat. Especially for a character that he's gonna reroll anyway.

Get off his funfactor, please!

-Dartanyn

[Vormaerin]

He asked why its bad. Twice, in fact. So he got an answer. I kind of assume that if they ask twice, they want an answer...

Everyone has a ranged weapon for perchers and other such situations. If he wants to use a great crossbow, that's fine. I'll take the 1d6+7 of a returning throwing axe with mid 20s str over the 2d8 of the crossbow. 18-20/x2 is a little better than 20/x3, but sample size will be pretty small if its just a situational toy. I think the axe is better because it doesn't require ammo, doesn't require a feat, and lets me use a shield to block the return fire.

Btw, the other question was about the khopesh. Historically, a khopesh is an early blade weapon used in Ancient Egypt. Its not, technically, a sword. Its more of a wierd axe that looks kind of sword like.

It is an exotic weapon in D&D because it allows you to use trip while armed with it, which you can't do with most weapons in D&D. However, this feature is standard on all weapons in DDO, so the devs gave it a different bonus: it has sword crit range, but axe crit multiplier. This makes it one of the best one handed weapons in the game.

[CrunK.]

Pure knowledge, excellent responses. Thank you for the information.

Now its question time regarding my Drow Pali build:

Tomes: The DDO wiki says they are bind on acquire but why do I see them for sale in the auction house? And if I buy them in the auction house do they then bind on acquire? If not can my lvl 9 pali buy it and send it to my Drow Pali? So far I haven't found a mailbox on korthos.

Action Points: I have four action points so far. Which enhancements should I spend them on first?

khopesh: Sounds cooler than its name. If I wanted to go twf with the Khopesh what changes could I make on my current build while not straying too far off my current build path?

[Vormaerin]

Now its question time regarding my Drow Pali build:

Tomes:

Action Points:

khopesh:

Whether Tomes are bound depends on where you get them. They are bound if you buy them from the store. +1 Tomes that drop in loot are rarely, if ever, bound. +2, +3, and +4 Tomes will be bound in the lowest level instances they can drop, but not bound in higher level areas. So a quest might drop a bound +3 or an unbound +2, as I understand it. Raids tend to give you bound tomes earlier than you could otherwise get them.

Action points are kind of personal preference. I'd take Paladin Toughness I, Extra Smite Evil I, and whatever you might need as prerequisites later. For example: If you know you want to be a defender of Siberys at lvl 6, you could just get Focus of Good and Armor Boost out of the way. Its not terribly important because its just money to change your enhancements around if you goof, unlike feats.

Nothing really needs to change to go khopesh, other than taking the exotic weapon proficiency and NOT taking any of the drow weapon enhancements, since you won't be using rapiers or shortswords. Given that Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite give crit multipliers on use, you may wish to stay with a rapier for the 18-20 crit chance and use the drow racial bonuses to make up some of the day to day damage difference. But it really depends on whether you feel more feat starved or more AP starved as your paladin. You really are starved for both compared to a lot of classes.