9Monk/11Cleric ? stop me if I'm doing a mistake

[zealous]

Bottom line, you need epic gear to be just as good as not-have with a sane build?

If you consider only one dimension of the character, yes. It's more about the twink enabling you to be "good enough" at a second "thing", melee dps in this case.

If we take shroud pt4 as an example.
The green not-have cleric might be able to heal for 1 round without pots
The unorthodox abomination might be able to heal for 1.5 rounds without pots
The veteran have cleric might be able to heal for 2 rounds without pots, able to heal 3 rounds in a "good" group but a "good" group would never need 3 rounds.

The green not-have cleric wouldn't have the twink nor skill to melee+heal
The unorthodox abomination might have the dps of roughly 90+% of a twitching 2hf FB
The veteran have cleric might have the dps of roughly 60% of a twitching 2hf FB

The unorthodox abomination might have enough dps and healing to be equivalent to a dps+healer even in a good group, in a worse group it might be noticeably better than a random dps+healer. For some groups the added dps might outweigh the lesser capabilities to heal, mawr dps=>things die faster=>less damage=>less mana required. Skewing things a bit ofc
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In a good group in current content, are higher tier mass cures and mass heals required to cope with the hp lost or is the advantage a higher efficiency in spell point usage?

If this is the case one could translate the benefit of higher spell levels into more spell points.

Does veterans without the ring of epic spell storing commonly resort to massive pot usage in decent-good groups?

[Anderei]

Play what you like...but you may be playing alone. Also for Seliana's build to come to fruition...it took a TON of planning and work (Kudos to you)

I agree, and there is a difference of the veteran player that after capping two melees, a cleric, a fvs, a rogueish build, a hagglebard and an exploiter is bored enough to try something different just because to try something new. Or if we speak of a newbie that lvled 1 maybe 2 toons to lvl 10ish and wants to do something crazy (and also likes the challenge to get through DDO with a rather unconvential build since everything else became too easy) and asks if he is doing an error.

[Mhykke]

....I'm not recommending this build to anyone, and especially not a new player, but it is also not as gimp as you all seem to be convinced of...

So going over this really quickly, I had some questions.....

I probably missed these as I didn't read too carefully, but a couple things:

As this is a melee oriented character, do you have improved crit (as you won't be using min. II's b/c you'll be using handwraps)....Also, do you have quicken? As you're a melee character, do you think it's a problem to not have quicken, as you'll have to back out of any important encounters to throw that heal that you'll need. Considering that you're sacrificing dps to gain survivability through self healing, do you think it's trivial to remove yourself from a fight to throw that heal on yourself? Also, a problem for builds like these is that if you're doing something like a raid, as you mention, you'll be meleeing with others that are getting mass cured, which means you'll be getting mass cured. This means that the ability to self heal isn't really huge. Now, maybe as a solo build, although the problem is you're going to need a lot of groups just to get the equipment to be a viable solo build...

Also, you mention things like the 2d6 you'll get from the past life monk feat, which at first glance seems ok. But these builds don't exist in a vaccuum. Comparing it to a 20 monk who TR'd, he's looking at 2d12 a fist (not to mention the +5% or so melee alacrity he'll have, and the ability to use madstone boots for even more str and melee alacrity). And not comparing it to a monk, you're looking at melee builds, some with dwarven axes that are 2d10 (greensteel), some with khopeshes which may not be as high of a base, but will be 17-20x3 crits (or 16-20x3 in case of a kensai) compared to your 20x2, all of whom can use items like madstone boots/hezrou cookies, while you have to stay away from such items so u can heal.

Also, you mention things like +4 holy wraps of greater bane. Just so people are aware, things like this aren't simply items that you grind and eventually you get. It's not like raid loot or greensteel, where you know where the things drop, and just have to run the quest enough to get the item. These are random, rare items. Just to compare, I had to go do a different server just to bring back a pair of +2 holy wraps of greater construct bane to my home server. I have a decent number of holy of greater bane wraps, but very few +4's, and I've been collecting since monks were put into the game.

Also, why the feats to get displacement? Considering the other items you list, I don't think it'd be a stretch to collect a few shroud displacement clickies at 1:30 each (2 clicks a pop), and save yourself some feats and a decent number of APs.


Like I said, I haven't looked at your post carefully, so I may be way off. But at first glance, these are some of the things that stood out. It seems that you're basically required to get every piece of grindable loot in the game that you can grind in order to function. Up until that point, it seems it would be a huge drag, and even when reaching that point, it seems like you'd be in for a rude awakening as you wouldn't be getting quite the dps you think you will (and even if you do reach it, it's merely ok).

[zealous]

all that gear and time (TRed and Tomes) onto a "normal" build would crush the 11CLR/9MNK build. As in a 20 FVS or 20 CLR would be way better at healing than the 11/9.

Do you really need to rotate mass heal and the higher level mass cures to keep a decent to good party up?

Are mass cures really needed in situations where you have good aggro control?

How many spellpoints do you need to not have to use any pots?

e.g. Can shroud be solo healed by a bard? Can healing in some raids be covered solely by scrolls?

Or a 20 Barb RNG FTR (or DPS build of any kind) would crush the 11/9 build. Or heck even a 20 BRD or a 15/2/3 BRD Axesinger would DPS and have those handy songs and UMD and SP and stuff.

Would they really?

Going by Selianas numbers and adjusting them for proper number of attacks and buffs we're looking at 100% fort dps in the 400+, that's the same or more than the builds you specified can achieve.

[Razcar]

Before you light the fires and begin the flaming me: I'm not recommending this build to anyone, and especially not a new player, but it is also not as gimp as you all seem to be convinced of...

Invalid Target
Elven - Monk 9 / Cleric 11

This seems to me to be a sort of pipe-dream build. I do not want to sound like I'm belittling you, but I used to sketch similar kinds of characters when I started DDO, checking Trosky's static reward list and decking out my "future" characters with all kinds of rare equipment and raid loot - which would make them work. "If a make this elf fighter/wizard with W/P rapiers, Seven fingered gloves, +5 mithral chain and..."

It is always a mistake to use loot and gear to try to make your build viable. The build should stand on its own. And in about all cases I can think of, dual-classed, even split builds are suboptimal - and showering them in loot doesn't make it less so.

Also, there are no new really new ideas, no ground-breaking new takes on old concepts. It has all been tested and tried. The only new ideas come when the devs add new mechanics, and then the possibilities are explored as soon as the new systems are announced.

[Seliana]

So going over this really quickly, I had some questions.....
Also, you mention things like +4 holy wraps of greater bane. Just so people are aware, things like this aren't simply items that you grind and eventually you get. It's not like raid loot or greensteel, where you know where the things drop, and just have to run the quest enough to get the item. These are random, rare items. Just to compare, I had to go do a different server just to bring back a pair of +2 holy wraps of greater construct bane to my home server. I have a decent number of holy of greater bane wraps, but very few +4's, and I've been collecting since monks were put into the game.

Those handwraps are sitting on my character right now. Yeah not everyone has them, but I do. I probably could fine tune my build with displacement clickies from shroud and wrap feats into quicken and improved crit blunt instead of Dragonmarks, One could also probably do wizard levels and warforged as opposed to cleric levels and get stoneskin/displacement/fireshield going that way instead with extend using repair spells instead... I could also probably spent that SP on maximize and empower and toss up blade barriers or firewalls too. Those feats are flexible depending on what your looking to accomplish.

[Mhykke]

Those handwraps are sitting on my character right now. Yeah not everyone has them, but I do. I probably could fine tune my build with displacement clickies from shroud and wrap feats into quicken and improved crit blunt instead of Dragonmarks, One could also probably do wizard levels and warforged as opposed to cleric levels and get stoneskin/displacement/fireshield going that way instead with extend using repair spells instead... I could also probably spent that SP on maximize and empower and toss up blade barriers or firewalls too. Those feats are flexible depending on what your looking to accomplish.

And that's 3 out of how many (and one of your screenshots wasn't a +4, so really, you have 2 of the wraps you named)? What about elementals, orcs, gnolls, etc. etc?

[Lasulie]

Well I decided to go with the ¨build¨ modified it slightly based on what I've read in this thread. I'll go with the 1monk/11cleric first and then see if I want to move on as a pure healer and swap 1-2 feats out (I know 2monk/18cleric is a valid healing build) or if I want to try this build out.

[Ellyll]

Well I decided to go with the ¨build¨ modified it slightly based on what I've read in this thread. I'll go with the 1monk/11cleric first and then see if I want to move on as a pure healer and swap 1-2 feats out (I know 2monk/18cleric is a valid healing build) or if I want to try this build out.

I know I'm necroing this by about a week, but everyone should also know that monk finishers are, currently at least, keyed off of character level, not monk level. Anyone with veteran status can check this out in 5 minutes by rolling a 1 mnk / 3 anything else and doing fire finisher.... You will be doing 4d6 dmg, not 1d6.

This means that a 3mnk / 17 cleric gets healing ki at level 20 same as a L 20 pure monk does. (as well as the three elem/light/elem buffs)

I can not, however, guarantee that it will always be this way. Just thought you should know.