Wow....What the hell? I guess I'm a noob now!

[zealous]

What is the prot rate of a lightning strike? If a lightning strike averages 600pts of dmg, by your 10/swing that has it going off every 60 attacks.

I haven't seen recordings of extensive testing nor have I been bothered to perform them myself so that's based on what I've read and heard, 10 would be counting quite low.

Of course you also have the rogue auto SA dmg once the radience goes off.

Yes, and as I previously stated it is quite possible to get ~100% SA even without radianceII weapons, which should be obvious to any vet.

Plus a Lightnig II strike could go off on a trash killing it, and not all the damage being counted. Where the rogue SA thru radeince is more constant.

Yes, and hypothetically it could go off on the first, second and third strike against every mob in an entire quest, thus providing +~600damage/attack, however unlikely that would be.

So examining the validity of your hypothetical situation:
Lightningstrike will on average overkill so much that the lightning strike will contribute as little as to be equivalent to radiance, making the erroneous assumptions that radiance will never result in overkill and that lightning gives 10damage/attack, in order to favor your hypothesis.

Now 2.8/10=28%, i.e. on average 72% of the damage of the rad will be overkill.
This would imply that half the hp of the mob is equivalent to 28% of lightning strike damage of 600, i.e. mob hp of approx 336.

First off the mob would die just by looking at it, secondly you would kill it before loosing SA if someone else just grabbed first sight aggro, thirdly the probability of radII to not proc would be 64% and finally you wouldn't bother to melee since the mob would die so easily that ranged would be more viable than melee.

I like generalized statements saying 1 weapons is better then others. It allows the reader to cut thru all the actual facts of the weapons based on a particular class and simply just follow the more inaccurate conclusions. Of couse they don't have to read pages upon pages of caculator garble, and can simply just pick by assumption, it is quicker i suppose. So here's my general all BS no fact statement, since those must be what works for proper answers:

On a rogue, Radience II > Min II or Lightning II

Yeah, but why?
I totally get the convenience of being able to zerg off on your own or soloing, once again that's probably not sound advice for a new player though.

And why is convenience more important than being able to contribute as much as you can where lack of contribution is likely to lead to failure?

Most failed shrouds I've been in have been due to a combination of lack of DPS and healers unable to keep people up for the extended time to kill resulting thereof.

[Clay]

This is really just an extension of a common cultural disconnect between the "vets" and the "noobs". In general, the "vets" are strongly oriented towards solo play while the "noobs" are strongly oriented towards group play.

For years, DDO was essentially a solo game. Yes, you had to group to accomplish certain goals, but you didn't have much in the way of grouping options. If someone had a 'gimp' build, you took them anyway because you didn't have a lot of choices. This experience tended to bias such players towards decision that made sense for solo, but not necessarily for grouping.

For example, Radiance vs. Min. In a solo setting, Radiance is by far superior. But when you can build the group you want, it's nearly pointless since you'll be getting your Sneak Attacks anyway.

To a "vet", Radiance II seems the obvious choice. To a "noob", Min II/Lightning seems equally obvious. Neither is strictly "correct", but the "noob" advice will profit a group more while the "vet" advice will profit a solo player more.

what a crock. vets geared to solo play? noobs geared to group play?

what game are you playing? I see vets geared to getting the job done efficiently and working together... I see noobs thinking they know better than those who have played the game for 3 years and doing what they want.

[Xyfiel]

So... what do we do?

I blame it all on grease. The problem is, new players don't know the fun of greasing your group. The sheer excitement when the Cleric slides down the greased ramp into the trap and dies. We know this is good times. If there was more grease, people could loosen up, and being loose could listen better to advice. For instance I greased the chest in DQ1 a few nights back, and that was some crazy kiting around my firewall in the middle. I didn't die, but it sure was fun to have a sense of challenge. Grease is like forum rep, the more someone greases the more reputable they are in my eyes. So get out there, and spread some grease around!

[Bunker]

I haven't seen recordings of extensive testing nor have I been bothered to perform them myself so that's based on what I've read and heard, 10 would be counting quite low.


Yes, and as I previously stated it is quite possible to get ~100% SA even without radianceII weapons, which should be obvious to any vet.


Yes, and hypothetically it could go off on the first, second and third strike against every mob in an entire quest, thus providing +~600damage/attack, however unlikely that would be.

So examining the validity of your hypothetical situation:
Lightningstrike will on average overkill so much that the lightning strike will contribute as little as to be equivalent to radiance, making the erroneous assumptions that radiance will never result in overkill and that lightning gives 10damage/attack, in order to favor your hypothesis.

Now 2.8/10=28%, i.e. on average 72% of the damage of the rad will be overkill.
This would imply that half the hp of the mob is equivalent to 28% of lightning strike damage of 600, i.e. mob hp of approx 336.

First off the mob would die just by looking at it, secondly you would kill it before loosing SA if someone else just grabbed first sight aggro, thirdly the probability of radII to not proc would be 64% and finally you wouldn't bother to melee since the mob would die so easily that ranged would be more viable than melee.


Yeah, but why?
I totally get the convenience of being able to zerg off on your own or soloing, once again that's probably not sound advice for a new player though.

And why is convenience more important than being able to contribute as much as you can where lack of contribution is likely to lead to failure?

Most failed shrouds I've been in have been due to a combination of lack of DPS and healers unable to keep people up for the extended time to kill resulting thereof.

Of course this was based on which GS weapon a rogue should wield and the success of the weapon vs. trash mobs.

I think I will stick with the generalizations for this one thread.

1 vote Radience II
1 vote Lightning II
....and if everyone else chimed in to vote, they would probably say something like Min II cause they are all a bunch of Min II copy cats!. I personally do not choose everything weapon for the game based on what others say. I choose them based on what I think is right. By all means, do the same. See you in Stormreach.

[gavagai]

So... what do we do?

Just politely but persistently underscore that DDO is not (at present) like other MMOs. Neither is it completely like PnP. Pulling up one or two forum threads on a subject rather than getting mad can help. Or at least pushing players to go to forums.ddo.com or ddowiki.com for information and to post ideas.

I think 9 times out of 10 the most outspoken newer players are so insanely outspoken because they feel they possess an intuition for RPGs born from hours of grinding others MMOs or playing PnP. It's not a newb/vet thing; its the fact that they are underinformed about DDO like a newb but have the same level of pride as a vet. Pride and Openness to Correction are not exactly complementary.

These days when someone whips into a baseless I-am-the-MMO-Guru! fit, I don't fighting drama with drama. I'll usually drop a little encouragement. "Yeah, I see you've got good x, y, z skills. But you'd be killing things faster if you swapped picks with rapiers. I think they have dps comparisons on the forums." Sure, sometimes encouraging a goofy player will make me want to barf a little, but hell. It's a game.

[Arlith]

Though, you can not tell a new player that rad two is the best way to go for a rogue. I saw a rogue earlier today running around with dual rad II light picks because he wanted to see big crit numbers on his finese build.....*face palm*

Why you gotta make fun of me like that!?

[Blackbird]

This is really just an extension of a common cultural disconnect between the "vets" and the "noobs". In general, the "vets" are strongly oriented towards solo play while the "noobs" are strongly oriented towards group play.

For years, DDO was essentially a solo game. Yes, you had to group to accomplish certain goals, but you didn't have much in the way of grouping options. If someone had a 'gimp' build, you took them anyway because you didn't have a lot of choices. This experience tended to bias such players towards decision that made sense for solo, but not necessarily for grouping.

For example, Radiance vs. Min. In a solo setting, Radiance is by far superior. But when you can build the group you want, it's nearly pointless since you'll be getting your Sneak Attacks anyway.

To a "vet", Radiance II seems the obvious choice. To a "noob", Min II/Lightning seems equally obvious. Neither is strictly "correct", but the "noob" advice will profit a group more while the "vet" advice will profit a solo player more.

By "noobs" being "group minded" do you mean running ahead with no sense of tactics because they think they are uber and don't need anyone's help then crying when the cleric hasn't caught up to them and healed them and blaming others for their death or quest failure rather than it being their fault they ran ahead without any knowledge of the quest? Or maybe you mean "group minded" as in not contributing to party resources or considering others by having their own remove curse/disease/blindness/poison pots, having cure pots, or getting House P resist energies at low levels? Yes, group minded.... I was in a group where my FIGHTER was having to toss neutralize poisons, rem curses/disease on other characters because they didn't have pots/wands/the spell mem'd. I rarely see people, especially at lower levels drinking pots to help fill themselves up. I excuse it at higher levels because it's just not worth it but at lower levels why should my FvS be wand whipping you up to full after a fight when you could be at least helping by drinking pots? So please tell me how "vets" are not group minded. Yes, these people existed before F2P came out. HOWEVER, they were for less common and were far less likely to be rude and obnoxious when offered advice on how something should be done by someone who had done it a ton of times in the past.

I have no idea where you get your information. Those that posted previously about always trying to fill a party prior to F2P are absolutely correct. I have been around this game since the original open beta and have ALWAYS grouped. I still don't really solo things but have gotten to the point where I have to sometimes because it's just not worth it. All my characters were built with group play in mind (my cleric has DVs...why would I need those if I was going to solo? What good is an intimitank without a party? If I'm by myself OF COURSE they are going to aggro on me!). I find myself for the first time desiring to short man things rather than open it up to all because of dungeon scaling. Before F2P, you even got bonus xp for running the quest at a lower character level than the level of the quest. You NEEDED a full group of good players to maximize your xp by running Tangleroot at level 4 and Delara's at level 5. Now, I see LFMs up for Delara's for level 12-15.

I love how you say "for years DDO was a solo game" with a join date of October 2009. Last time I checked, that was only 4 months ago. Maybe you played years ago and started a new account. Or maybe you are making an assumption based on no experience whatsoever.

And as for "not having much in the way of grouping options". Again, not sure where you get your information. While there are certain classes that seem to ebb and flow (i.e. for a while everyone had lowbie casters, now not so much) and healers were always a little scarce but most people would swap to an alt that was needed in order to help the party get it done because on the next run someone would do the same for them. I guess that's us "vets" being not "group minded" again.

[DragonMageT]

So... what do we do?

Unfortunately, I know what I am going to continue to do.
I will try to stick to guild groups/runs or friends first and foremost and let my Friends List continue to grow
with people marked as "Never Run With..." I will leave the rest of the quote off.

You guys can flame me all you want...but after working on my second TR on the same toon,
I have had to run with alot of new players (mainly because guildies and friends didn't TR)
so I have been in PUG hell. Story after story...

Low levels not really that big of deal, I have the resources to get through it.
Mid-Level and up, it starts to become a real problem with noobs, hate that word,
with bad players/inexperienced players causing problems.

It's not been all bad, I have added some players to my friends list because they showed good teamwork, play,
etc. but those are far and few in between.

I know that's not a solution, it's my personal answer to the problem.

"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the nave forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget." - Thomas Szasz

[gorloch]

This is really just an extension of a common cultural disconnect between the "vets" and the "noobs". In general, the "vets" are strongly oriented towards solo play while the "noobs" are strongly oriented towards group play.

For years, DDO was essentially a solo game. Yes, you had to group to accomplish certain goals, but you didn't have much in the way of grouping options. If someone had a 'gimp' build, you took them anyway because you didn't have a lot of choices. This experience tended to bias such players towards decision that made sense for solo, but not necessarily for grouping.

For example, Radiance vs. Min. In a solo setting, Radiance is by far superior. But when you can build the group you want, it's nearly pointless since you'll be getting your Sneak Attacks anyway.

To a "vet", Radiance II seems the obvious choice. To a "noob", Min II/Lightning seems equally obvious. Neither is strictly "correct", but the "noob" advice will profit a group more while the "vet" advice will profit a solo player more.

Spoken like a noob. Most of us "vets" as you liked to call us prefer to group. We prefer to work as as team, ie team there. We have crunched numbers, rolled the builds that work and didn't work, have toons that aren't exactly soloable but designed to support the group and make it stronger. Radience is one of those things that helps the groups, everyone benefits from it not just a soloable build. In fact I would believe that many of those who have rogue levels of 18+ are prob not able to solo all that much due to lack of hit points and AC that becomes non-existant once they reach about level 12. I am trying to figure out how a blinded opponant isn't beneficial to the whole party? The rogue gets on average of 40+ points more damage as well as allow the whole party to receive a 50% less chance of getting hit by the big bad ugly they are all beating on.

Those giving the advice are coming from the bigger guilds that raid constantly (again in a group not solo) and are trying to give advice to newer players to help them create a character that that will be helpful when they do get into groups with other players and not have to suffer the rerolls and headaches that we went through already.


PIXA

[Ministry]

Just politely but persistently underscore that DDO is not (at present) like other MMOs. Neither is it completely like PnP. Pulling up one or two forum threads on a subject rather than getting mad can help. Or at least pushing players to go to forums.ddo.com or ddowiki.com for information and to post ideas.

I think 9 times out of 10 the most outspoken newer players are so insanely outspoken because they feel they possess an intuition for RPGs born from hours of grinding others MMOs or playing PnP. It's not a newb/vet thing; its the fact that they are underinformed about DDO like a newb but have the same level of pride as a vet. Pride and Openness to Correction are not exactly complementary.

These days when someone whips into a baseless I-am-the-MMO-Guru! fit, I don't fighting drama with drama. I'll usually drop a little encouragement. "Yeah, I see you've got good x, y, z skills. But you'd be killing things faster if you swapped picks with rapiers. I think they have dps comparisons on the forums." Sure, sometimes encouraging a goofy player will make me want to barf a little, but hell. It's a game.

Very well stated and ideally the stance a mature vet player "should" take, but my fear is that I, and many others have tried something like this a few times so far and have either heard back that we don't know what we are talking about or some other B.S. / arguement or dead silence. Not a good track record on attempting the higher road approach.

I guess a few more tries like that won't kill us and who knows, maybe there is a slight chance we could actually help someone and they will appreciate it.

I keep hoping to actually learn something from a new player, other than realizing more poor attitude and ungracious behavior. But hey, who knows... it might be the not so well hidded disdain and comtempt I'm trying hard to hide.



And to any who think vets don't like to group... ???

Seriously, many of us like to group, but have realized that it is safer and easier to just solo or short man quests and raids with people we know, than suffer the ignorance and ignoble behaviour of these new people who don't know much, are too lazy and don't care.

Please... carry pots. The other day I was in the Dreaming Dark and our cleric ran out of spell points and had no pots. I ran around, chugged over 50 pots and ended up with a completion. I'm so tired of people asking clerics and whoever for buffs like GH and poison and running around like chickens without freaking heads screaming they are cursed, while not having remove curse pots and the cleric is low on mana and trying to keep the other people up while the team leader or whoever is trying to give out orders / tactics. Okay.. maybe GH, because not everyone has a plethora of Girds... but heal, poison and curse pots??? Come on already.

[Flasharte]

I personally do not choose everything weapon for the game based on what others say. I choose them based on what I think is right. By all means, do the same. See you in Stormreach.[/QUOTE]

Not doing what others say is right is a bad example to all the new players who, as all vets have stated, should do as they are told. This kind of behavior is going to encourage new players to "do what they think is right', which will inevitably lead to making mistakes. And as we all know, if a new player makes mistakes because (s)he was doing what they thought was right, we will have to discuss it at length here on the forums!!

[Captain_Wizbang]

Newer players have hit the high end.
Newer players have reincarnated.
Newer players are in established guilds.
Newer players are harder to spot.
Newer players can hit 20 piking the whole way.
Newer players don't get to learn what they need to know.

If I don't know you personally, I will shortman the quest 95% of the time. It just isn't worth the hassle. I will shortman any quest with a few exceptions:

Shroud, but I am seriously reconsidering this one

We are now at an impasse, where the new players are making it to the high end content.
And with that comes the learning curve. OK, so lets take the handful of good players out of the equation, whats left are the same players that tell a member of legion how to play!?

MEH!
The new business model has brought us an overwhelming amount of new players that have played other mmos' and arent a good fit for DDO. What can we do, be selective on who we fill our pugs with, teach those will listen, and when we face bad groups;; use the recall button & drop! (not my style, but I have had to do that recently)

As my guild has a new leader & is bringing in new members, the screening process has ensured the new members from mod 9, are on the same page.
Additionally, the veteran members we have, will do as all good players do, teach and lead these new players.
As for the OP;
I sat idle last night, waiting for guild shroud, (they were in hound) and joined a pug shroud. I didnt recognize anyone there, ok, I can deal with that, but... when I asked about why 3 casters, 1 cleric, and what the game plan is for parts 1 & 2, I was told not to worry, and wait for instructions from the afk leader!
3 rangers in group, not 1 of them were giving out ranger buffs (I had 460 sp so I shared what I could) I was told I didnt need TS (human build) and that the portals never displace! HHMMM, ok, Ill walk carefully over these egg shells, I thought.
Portals were taking a VERY long time, and 20 minutes later we get to part 2. Lets just say I thought I was in a cartoon from there on out! We had cat, earth, kobold, troll. EASY!
Not so! oh no! earth = caster, cat = caster, 2 evasion builds = earth, rest on Kasquick!
First, the 2 "melee" build casters went down, I was quiet all this time, till I suggested a few things, and was ripped a new ****
I recalled and got flamed!
Needless to say, less than 5 minutes later the party was at the tavern in Meridia! LOL
I will not mention the name of the Thelanis based guild.
Nor will I mention the level 15 leader of that Thelanis based guild.
Nor will I mention that they boast over 50 members in that Thealnis based guild!
Nope, cant violate forum policy!

Man am I glad Chainmail has a new leader, new raid-ready (beta) members, and we can run anything, anytime, anywhere!
Next time, I will not be joining a pug unless I know you!

Now!~ about this NEW casual/walk mode/green DA thing...
Looks like they have a Geritol based play style coming here!

[Blackbird]

I personally do not choose everything weapon for the game based on what others say. I choose them based on what I think is right. By all means, do the same. See you in Stormreach.

Not doing what others say is right is a bad example to all the new players who, as all vets have stated, should do as they are told. This kind of behavior is going to encourage new players to "do what they think is right', which will inevitably lead to making mistakes. And as we all know, if a new player makes mistakes because (s)he was doing what they thought was right, we will have to discuss it at length here on the forums!![/QUOTE]

Exactly! I don't know what makes people think that maybe we have tried and failed or thought something was better after experience. I mean, I can't wait for Greater Rez to come out so I can redo my drow paladin's stats. I made her when drow came out and she started with a 10 con. Great back then, not too terrible now (she has over 400 hps at level 18) but not what I would do if I made her now. So, I'm fixing it when I can. I also have several partially completed GS items in my banks that I started because I thought they were a good idea (Min II on said paladin, granted before Holy Sword. I only went to Tier II before swapping to Lightning Strike) or which became obsolete with subsequent equipment releases (all my Wiz 6 SP items). I wish I had known when I started them

[Braegan]

You gotta admit, the newb has a point.

Only if I were asking questions would he have a point.

[DagazUlf]

This is really just an extension of a common cultural disconnect between the "vets" and the "noobs". In general, the "vets" are strongly oriented towards solo play while the "noobs" are strongly oriented towards group play.

Even with your "in general" statement there, your entire post is pretty much the complete opposite of reality.

[cdemeritt]

Pretty sure I was in that run... Ugh.
The first run we had a sub-optimal group, light on beaters and a tad heavy on casters/caster splashes. Also apparently had several people with a first time shroud (or who'd been carried through their firsts by guild groups) as there was a great deal of trouble in part 2.

The Lieutenants respawned not once, not twice, but THREE times!
The casters and clerics didn't want to use the trees because "they take too long" and actually used pots to keep us hanging in there that long.
All but two or three of the melees could not follow simple instructions.
It was an all around cluster-****.

And yes, I stuck around for a second run. Was hoping to get that 20th on that character before the weekend was up.

The second run, we had nobody patrolling. The caster was disintegrating and meleeing the portals. Myself on my Tempest ranger and the TR'd ranger/monk ended up going around killing trogs after a portal keeper spawned at the 6th portal before the 5th was even 1/3rd down!
And after we went roaming, the dps on the portals slowed to a crawl.

We jumped into pt 2... and caster had absolutely no CC. One healer was back shrining and the other... I think he was lost in the maze.
Wipe.

I decided to go nurse my headache instead of continuing on the 3rd attempt.

This sounds like 1 of many runs I've run lately... my favorite was the pt2 where it took 3 attempts to bead the guys down, finally do so, and when people were screaming "prep the crystal", "prep the Crystal" the leader goes "What Crystal?" needless to say, we didn't get the crystal.... Mind you we had 3 casters in that run. Again no one would use the trees for mana, so at that point I was the only cleric with a blue bar left... and after several attempts to get people to wait so all caster/clerics could refill, and them not listening, and pulling the one who just returned and killing it just as the next one came back to life, several death penatlies (the party leader said he had 8minutes worth), 20 minutes of general chaos, They kept wanting to keep going... Then when they finally did recall, and reform, I having nothing much better to do, tried again. (planning on only completing pt 1, could still use a shard, if we got further, then great, if not....). on our second attempt, There was No CC, no Evidence of vorpals, no nothing, I zone in and am almost instantly killed. party wiped in 30 secs flat. recalled, begged a good guild run that was forming to take me (as I was lvl 16, and they were 17-20) said, IDC about XP, just need to craft, they said sure... completed in less time than we spent in pt2 the first time.

[Zenako]

recalled, begged a good guild run that was forming to take me (as I was lvl 16, and they were 17-20) said, IDC about XP, just need to craft, they said sure... completed in less time than we spent in pt2 the first time.

ACK!!! Clerics should never have to Beg for anything!!!

And frankly for almost a year, level 16 was all you could be and those runs somehow seemed to go fine...

[Ministry]

... I was quiet all this time, till I suggested a few things, and was ripped a new ****
I recalled and got flamed!
Needless to say, less than 5 minutes later the party was at the tavern in Meridia! LOL

Herein lies the issue.

The vets may not know everything and there are always different ways to do things, so we join a pug that looks suspect, but we figure... ***... if an all Rogue team can do the Shroud on hard, we've 2, 3 and 4 manned this thing many times, this team can do it on normal, so we sit back and go for a ride.

Then, things start to go as bad as we could have expected they could go, and we still keep quiet.

Eventually it looks like it's going to fail, we step up and take over, because we know it can still be saved.

Then, these failing, fumbling, ill prepared, noobie fools freak out on us because we offer advice, take over, or at minimum are offering a plan that "will" work.

Seriously, why bother.

Might as well just recall with the smalls we collected and form our own team.

Honestly, before I took my break I use to form raids regularly and would either lead them or people all knew what they were doing and very few words needed uttering and we completed.

Now, I don't want to lead anything. I'm going to end up with a bunch of these newer players that have no real clue and won't listen. I don't need that.

So, we find friends and other vets and do our thing and hopefully those others can figure it out on their own... Darwinism FTW.

[Ministry]

This sounds like 1 of many runs I've run lately... my favorite was the pt2 where it took 3 attempts to bead the guys down, finally do so, and when people were screaming "prep the crystal", "prep the Crystal" the leader goes "What Crystal?" needless to say, we didn't get the crystal.... Mind you we had 3 casters in that run...

OMG... this is the funniest thing I've read. I'm sorry for your experience, but this is the best / worst I've seen so far.

"What Crystal?"

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.... ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

Right after that you should have said... okay, not much luck with the Shroud, let's try TOD!

[cdemeritt]

ACK!!! Clerics should never have to Beg for anything!!!

And frankly for almost a year, level 16 was all you could be and those runs somehow seemed to go fine...

Well, it wasn't like I really was begging... and when you have the option of a Lvl 20 cleric or FvS, a level 16 while helpful, isn't as much so... So it was more like "please let me pike with you so I can actually get to the end"

The problem with the shroud is that fore 2 years most of us have had several toons capped at 16, with multiple GS's and knew what we were doing. however most of these toons are now in the 17-20 range, and most of the current 16's are the new people... under equipped, little knowledged, and full of attitude, with a handful of us who have 100 or more runs under our belts. most of the 17-20 groups are either trying to be helpful with the limits, for XP loss is significant, or want to speed up the run. (more likely to have the correct tools at lvl 20)....