What's better value?

[Catholicon]

I'm trying to work out if a fully enhanced Empower Healing feat would make a Cleric more SP-efficient than a standard Empower Healing'd Favoured Soul.

How many healing spells could a Level 10 Cleric with 20 Wisdom cast compared to a Level 10 Favoured Soul with 20 Charisma, if both of them used the Empower Healing feat but the Cleric had all enhancements for it?

[Kralgnax]

Well - assuming Potency / devotion / etc. are a wash and casting stats are the same - it's the ratio between how many more SPs an FVS has (Anyone know %?) vs. Cleric life magic healing bonus (40%), right?

Are there other factors I'm missing?

[Catholicon]

Don't Clerics and Favoured Souls have the same amount of Life Magic enhancements (Positive Energy damage) available?

I'm referring to inherent number-of-spells ability, I know SP enhancing equipment will change this because it gives different SP boosts for the two classes.

Would this gap close or widen by Level 20, assuming no equipment.

[Kralgnax]

Don't Clerics and Favoured Souls have the same amount of Life Magic enhancements (Positive Energy damage) available?

I'm referring to inherent number-of-spells ability, I know SP enhancing equipment will change this because it gives different SP boosts for the two classes.

Would this gap close or widen by Level 20, assuming no equipment.

I'm afraid I don't play an FvS, so I can't answer - I think I may have misunderstood your original question. Feats would all seem to be a wash, as FvS have access to the same feat selection & numbers

I've always understood the tradeoff was FvS spellpoints vs. Clerics getting more spells earlier and being able to swap them out at will. i.e. FvS is to Cleric as Sorceror is to Wizard.

[The_Great_Samulas]

It's a little more complicated than you are making it. I say this because if you don't understand what is going on in both cases (FS healing vs. Clerical healing), your analysis won't matter because very few have toons set up that way. I have capped toons of both types.

First, as you know FS get enhancements to empower and clerics get enhancements to empower healing. That being said, FS can bring empower down to 9 mana per cast, while clerics can bring empower healing down to 4 mana per cast (both costs incorporate maximum enhancements plus the appropriate items). Both have the same net effect on healing except empower healing will affect the heal spell and mass heal, which empower does not.

Second, FS often are forced to use non-optimal spells for healing as they can't swap out easily and have extremely limited slots. Because of this they typically burn mana faster. Their heal spells don't hit as hard because they typically don't have empower healing (250 hp doesn't do the trick on a 900 hp barb or a WF with 65-85% healing). So just remember that it is more than a numbers game, i.e. just because a FS can cast more spells doesn't mean they can do it better. My cleric is a much better healer than my FS, and my FS does have empower healing. A cleric has everything they could possibly need as far as optimal spells ready to go, and this can make a huge difference (but only in the hands of a knowledgeable player).

Third, remember both classes get the same amount of mana from the bauble and the epic spell storing ring. In addition there are always mana pots you can take and both classes get the same from these.

In conclusion, I would caution you that rather than dwelling on how many spells a typical FS and Cleric can cast per mana bar, I would know the particulars that feed into mana efficiency of each class. Hope this helps.

[Jakarr]

It's a little more complicated than you are making it. I say this because if you don't understand what is going on in both cases (FS healing vs. Clerical healing), your analysis won't matter because very few have toons set up that way. I have capped toons of both types.

First, as you know FS get enhancements to empower and clerics get enhancements to empower healing. That being said, FS can bring empower down to 9 mana per cast, while clerics can bring empower healing down to 4 mana per cast (both costs incorporate maximum enhancements plus the appropriate items). Both have the same net effect on healing except empower healing will affect the heal spell and mass heal, which empower does not.

Second, FS often are forced to use non-optimal spells for healing as they can't swap out easily and have extremely limited slots. Because of this they typically burn mana faster. Their heal spells don't hit as hard because they typically don't have empower healing (250 hp doesn't do the trick on a 900 hp barb or a WF with 65-85% healing). So just remember that it is more than a numbers game, i.e. just because a FS can cast more spells doesn't mean they can do it better. My cleric is a much better healer than my FS, and my FS does have empower healing. A cleric has everything they could possibly need as far as optimal spells ready to go, and this can make a huge difference (but only in the hands of a knowledgeable player).

Third, remember both classes get the same amount of mana from the bauble and the epic spell storing ring. In addition there are always mana pots you can take and both classes get the same from these.

In conclusion, I would caution you that rather than dwelling on how many spells a typical FS and Cleric can cast per mana bar, I would know the particulars that feed into mana efficiency of each class. Hope this helps.

Valid Advice.

Having played a Cleric and TR'ed em to a FvS I will say if both the FvS and Cleric are Good healers, and the FvS has the healing spells needed(its really not hard to pick divine spells as all of em suck untill 6) the FvS will win hands down.

But you do have to remember a nicely thrown Greater Command/BB/Cometfall or even jumping over and killing that caster real quick with yer weapon will almost always net ya more SP saved vs SP used to sit in the back and Healbot.

[Catholicon]

So if I want to be the best at healing I should choose a Cleric with Empower Healing instead?

What about if I took both Empower and Empower Healing on my FvS, will it stack and therefore get the Empower Healing benefit on my Heal spell?

With this, any Empowered and Empowered Healing Cure spell will cost an extra 19 SP on both a Cleric and FvS, yet a FvS will have more SP to use.

Do they stack in this way, even with Empower Healing being the only Metamagic that works with Heal and Mass Heal?

[barongt]

So if I want to be the best at healing I should choose a Cleric with Empower Healing instead?

I wouldn't say that would make you the "best at healing", it sounds like the OP saying FS and Clerics are pretty equal if both are played well.

What about if I took both Empower and Empower Healing on my FvS, will it stack and therefore get the Empower Healing benefit on my Heal spell?

With this, any Empowered and Empowered Healing Cure spell will cost an extra 19 SP on both a Cleric and FvS, yet a FvS will have more SP to use.

Empower Healing Spell Affects: All "Cure" spells, all "Heal" spells
Empower Spell Affects: All "Cure" spells

Because of this, the OP is saying that clerics have an advantage because their improved metamagic improves the better of these 2 feats (The "better" feat being the one that affects both cure/heal, not just cure).

Ultimately, it comes down to a Cleric having his Heal SP cost AND his Cure SP cost reduced by a few spell points, and having a wider range of spell choice. FvS only have their Cure SP cost reduced. (All of this assuming you take empower and empower healing.)

Do they stack in this way, even with Empower Healing being the only Metamagic that works with Heal and Mass Heal?

It does work that way, but you definitely want to use Heal and probably Mass Heal. You can't just use the Cure line of spells end game. Heal is by far more SP efficient than Cures, only drawback for a FvS being that Empower doesn't affect it. (Since we get improved Empower Spell.)


I play a pure healing FvS, and I can tell you that I have no problem carrying a wide variety of appropriate spells for most any situation, and in my humble opinion I do not think having 1,000 less SP at cap (about that much right?) is worth Heal/Mass Heal costing a few less SP per cast. If you know exactly the right spells to get, FvS has enough room for every spell you'll ever need.

[Catholicon]

So Heal with Empower Healing will cost 39 SP for a Cleric and 45 SP for a FvS then? How many time will each be able to cast, given that SP cost?

[barongt]

So Heal with Empower Healing will cost 39 SP for a Cleric and 45 SP for a FvS then? How many time will each be able to cast, given that SP cost?

Correct, assuming that cleric took the Improved Empower Healing enhancement.

Well....do the math.

39 SP x 50 Casts = 1950 SP Used
45 SP x 50 Casts = 2250 SP Used

Even with that many casts (and that is a gross exaggeration....you will be casting some mass cures too), you still only save 300 SP by going Cleric.

My opinion: the SP you save by having Improved Empower Healing v.s. Improved Empower does not compensate for the SP difference between Cleric and FvS. And Improved Empower makes your offensive spells cheaper too

[The_Great_Samulas]

So Heal with Empower Healing will cost 39 SP for a Cleric and 45 SP for a FvS then? How many time will each be able to cast, given that SP cost?

It's 45 for a FvS, with the added caveot that they aren't taking advantage of their class' empower enhancements. FS burn mana much quicker than clerics do.

The main problem with FS is that their spell slots are so restrictive that they lose the versatility of the cleric class, which is one of the huge strengths of the cleric. To be close to a cleric as far as healing ability a FS has to be a healbot for the most part. A comparable cleric will be much more. That being said, you can't take advantage of the cleric versatility all that well until you have more experience and knowledge playing the game. It is for this reason that I recommend FS for beginners. Once you get your legs under you and are ready for more, TR or roll up a cleric.

The 900 - 1000 mana difference between the two is accurate. However, 1) mana efficiency lowers the real value of this, 2) even at elite levels this mana isn't needed on a well played cleric, 3) pots and end game items really make this difference inconsequential (you don't need the mana almost all of the time, when you do reserves of pots/bauble/epic ring are very substantial - I have 100s of them because I never need them), 4) scroll and wand use save both classes the same amount of mana, and 5) there are items in the game (DQ Torc and concordiant opposition greensteel) that give you 100s of mana on a typical quest, which is the same on a FS or a cleric.

This of course doesn't take into account the other advantages of the cleric class, which are not pertinent to the original poster's question, but are pertinent to some suppositions put forward in the thread.

[Nott]

I saw a plea to ignore equipment in figuring this out, but this is an invalid request if you're looking to compare at level 20 -- at that level, every cleric and fvs is going to have at least a tier 1 shroud item with wiz6 on it. This means the fvs has 150 more sp due to just a single low tier item. Most of the time, by level 20 these classes also have +50 and +100 sp items (which equate to 150 more sp to the cleric and 300 more to the fvs), and it's reasonable to expect a wiz7 item as well. Score 350 sp to the cleric but 700 to the fvs when adding in items that are commonly attained when levelling to 20.