Better splash for Cleric BC?

[Kage72]

Since a cleric has spare levels right now, I've been debating which other class would make the better splash.

One of my main things I'd like from the splash if "martial weapon proficiency". I really prefer having a wider option of weapons when looking for good elemental weapons and such. I like being able to use a flamatonue at like lev.4, then being able to shoot over to my flaming burst/maiming scimitar at lev.8. I know i could just use a feat to get a korpesh or something, but they tend to cost waaay too much due to thier demand.

So, the 3 classes that would give me the martial weapon proficiency are:

Fighter: This one is nice since allows for the extra feat. Has a nice +2 confirm crit enhancement at lev.1

Ranger: This one provides for an extra +2 reflex save and a much better skill start option.

Paladin: Seems to only provide the aura, which I'm not sure even adds anything at lev.1

Barbarian: The base run speed is nice, but seems to be only perk at lev.1

Aside from that, I'm debating if i need the 2 levels of rogue for evasion in late game. If so, would seem best to make lev.1 as rogue for the starting skill pts.

I don't have monk access!!! So, pls don't suggest!!

[sirgog]

Fighters are the most popular, as battlecleric builds are very feat starved (needing all of Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Toughness, Power Attack, and having a lot of use for Empower Spell, Empower Healing, the Two-Weapon/Two-Handed Fighting chains, and more). A second level gets you a second feat and a +1 Str enhancement.

Barbarian run speed is better than it might sound. Rage is extremely situational, but has its uses (be warned: you cannot cast spells while raged, so you'll only really use it in a group with too many Clerics).

Ranger and Paladin both boost SP a little, which makes up for the lacklustre other abilities a one-level splash of these classes offers.

[Arnya]

Just a little info in rogue levels for evasion: if your dex is low and your reflex save is under 30 then evasion is useless to you from level16 onwards - you will never make a save

I took my cleric to lvl20 pure, as a WF lord of blades I can use a turn undead to get greatsword proficiency.

My main question is why melee on a cleric when you get the best offensive and CC spells in the game?

[Kage72]

Just a little info in rogue levels for evasion: if your dex is low and your reflex save is under 30 then evasion is useless to you from level16 onwards - you will never make a save

I took my cleric to lvl20 pure, as a WF lord of blades I can use a turn undead to get greatsword proficiency.

My main question is why melee on a cleric when you get the best offensive and CC spells in the game?

I think I like melee because it's free damage, therebye allowing me to use all my SP on buffs and healing.

[Kage72]

Fighters are the most popular, as battlecleric builds are very feat starved (needing all of Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Toughness, Power Attack, and having a lot of use for Empower Spell, Empower Healing, the Two-Weapon/Two-Handed Fighting chains, and more). A second level gets you a second feat and a +1 Str enhancement.

Barbarian run speed is better than it might sound. Rage is extremely situational, but has its uses (be warned: you cannot cast spells while raged, so you'll only really use it in a group with too many Clerics).

Ranger and Paladin both boost SP a little, which makes up for the lacklustre other abilities a one-level splash of these classes offers.

yeah, that's what I'm playing now. I've just been driving myself crazy debating wether it was right choice. I've rerolled a good 15+ characters in the last couple of months since I started. Having run thru ea korthos quest 50+ times was very boring.

I'm mostly debating Ranger. Debating which is better in long run... 1 feat or much better skills. Not to mention the extra +2 reflex save a ranger gets over a fighter.

[sirgog]

Just a little info in rogue levels for evasion: if your dex is low and your reflex save is under 30 then evasion is useless to you from level16 onwards - you will never make a save

I make a fair number of Reflex saves with a 26 Ref save on my melee cleric, but I don't have Evasion.

My main question is why melee on a cleric when you get the best offensive and CC spells in the game?

Because your offensive spells - the ones that dominate level 1-18 quests like Implosion and Bladebarrier - are virtually useless at endgame. Tower of Despair and Epic trash are all immune to Implosion (and that spell is hard to land in Amrath above Normal), so the spell isn't worth loading except for speedruns of easy content. Bladebarrier kiting does too little damage per second and too little damage per mana to deal with 6000hp mobs in Epic dungeons, and a foe you are BB kiting can't be effectively meleed by your party members.

Personally, if I had a DC-based offensive caster level 20 Cleric at the moment, I'd be looking to reincarnate them. (Future content releases may change this, in particular endgame foes with <2000hp and/or endgame foes susceptible to Implosion might push offensive caster clerics ahead of melee clerics again)

[TheDjinnFor]

Because your offensive spells - the ones that dominate level 1-18 quests like Implosion and Bladebarrier - are virtually useless at endgame. Tower of Despair and Epic trash are all immune to Implosion (and that spell is hard to land in Amrath above Normal), so the spell isn't worth loading except for speedruns of easy content. Bladebarrier kiting does too little damage per second and too little damage per mana to deal with 6000hp mobs in Epic dungeons, and a foe you are BB kiting can't be effectively meleed by your party members.

Personally, if I had a DC-based offensive caster level 20 Cleric at the moment, I'd be looking to reincarnate them. (Future content releases may change this, in particular endgame foes with <2000hp and/or endgame foes susceptible to Implosion might push offensive caster clerics ahead of melee clerics again)

Just throwing this out there, but the same could be said of a BC who didn't severely damage his healbot abilities (access to high level spells, missing feats and enhancements, missing item slots) in order to improve his melee capability. I would go so far as to argue that a capped BC on Epic and Elite is just as worthless as a DC caster when it comes to damage output and potential, unless you're running with the bare minimum (that is, cleric level 11 for heal and that's it), in which case, you can't call yourself much of a cleric anymore. At least a DC caster can be a healbot when DC is worthless; a battle-cleric who actually wants to be able to fight past the standards you've set for DC clerics is going to have almost no "main healer" abilities worth mentioning.

[sirgog]

Just throwing this out there, but the same could be said of a BC who didn't severely damage his healbot abilities (access to high level spells, missing feats and enhancements, missing item slots) in order to improve his melee capability. I would go so far as to argue that a capped BC on Epic and Elite is just as worthless as a DC caster when it comes to damage output and potential, unless you're running with the bare minimum (that is, cleric level 11 for heal and that's it), in which case, you can't call yourself much of a cleric anymore. At least a DC caster can be a healbot when DC is worthless; a battle-cleric who actually wants to be able to fight past the standards you've set for DC clerics is going to have almost no "main healer" abilities worth mentioning.

BC builds don't sacrifice much healing ability. My main is a Clr18/Ftr2 that has Quicken, Empower Healing (with all enhancements) and Maximize Spell, Cleric Life Magic 4, and Cleric Wand/Scroll Mastery 4 (they also have most of the healing crit enhancements, although I may not keep these) - in short, my healing output is only slightly less than that of a pure offensive caster. Here's the comparisons, not taking into account metamagic cost reducing items like the Ring of Thelis:

SP: About 350 less than an offensive caster build, plus some of this is often used on offensive selfbuffs on the battlecleric. However, the BC will proc Concordant Opposition and/or Torc of Raiyum more often than offensive caster builds, closing this gap.
Healing output (assumes offensive caster has Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, no Empower Healing, and that both builds use Quicken on Mass Heal but on no other spell - in practice the BC will use Quicken more than this)
Mass Heal: 378 for 66 mana (280 for 60 on most offensive caster builds)
Heal: 427 for 41 mana (285 for 35 on offensive casters)
Maximized, Empowered Mass Cure Light: (1d8+18)*1.9(enhancements and potency)*2.5(metamagic multiplier) for BC, 61 SP. (1d8+20)*1.9*2.5 for 70 SP on offensive caster. 8% more healing output on offensive caster build for 15% more mana.
Maximized, Empowered Mass Cure Critical with Superior Ardor/Devotion 8: (4d8+18)*1.9*2.5 for 76 SP, or (4d8+20)*1.9*2.5 for 85 SP, healing output difference is under 5%.

Overall, the two heal about as well as each other, but the battlecleric runs out of SP slightly faster. In exchange, mobs go down faster as you have more sustainable DPS (typically a max-STR BC contributes about 70% as much DPS as a 'traditional' melee, or closer to 50-60% in content like Epic dungeons where you are frequently taking 2.5 second breaks from melee to cast Quickened Mass Heal).

For more on that melee DPS - I've pulled aggro in ToD parts 1 and 2 quite frequently, although never from the top-notch DPS players, and much more often in 6 player quests where the group has agreed to me Madstone Raging (in 2 cleric groups where I wasn't required to heal at all).

[hoppe172]

Just throwing this out there, but the same could be said of a BC who didn't severely damage his healbot abilities (access to high level spells, missing feats and enhancements, missing item slots) in order to improve his melee capability. I would go so far as to argue that a capped BC on Epic and Elite is just as worthless as a DC caster when it comes to damage output and potential, unless you're running with the bare minimum (that is, cleric level 11 for heal and that's it), in which case, you can't call yourself much of a cleric anymore. At least a DC caster can be a healbot when DC is worthless; a battle-cleric who actually wants to be able to fight past the standards you've set for DC clerics is going to have almost no "main healer" abilities worth mentioning.

Why do you believe BCs have no "main healer" abilities worth mentioning? I guess I don't understand. You get all the metamagic feats...can cast all the same spells. Can you explain this better? I just made a new BC and as far as I could tell, the only thing he wouldn't have going for him in terms of healing is maxed out wisdom(so less SPs).

[Premier]

Go with the 1 lvl of Ranger at creation, it's all the melee you'll need. Favored enemy Undead and pick up Sprint Boost. I have a Dwarf version (19/1), hindsight I would have picked Human for the extra feat because I currently can't fit Power Attack in.

At current endgame I'm more caster oriented than melee because my spells do much more damage. But at low lvls the 1 Ranger greatly increases your melee and survivability. You won't lose spell points like you would with Fighter or Barbarian lvls. In my opinion 1 Ranger lvl is the way to go.

[Angelus_dead]

Barbarian: The base run speed is nice, but seems to be only perk at lev.1

Also +1 or +2 damage from Power Attack.

[acidtiger]

I'm certainly no expert, still learning as I go, but I have one Battle Cleric @ 20 and another almost there.

One is a 18 cleric/2 Fighter the other is Valiance's evasion Cleric 17 cleric/2 Monk/1 Rogue. The 2nd has been far more enjoyable to play and seems far more effective. The cleric/fighter has no evasion, mediocre saves and while over 400 hp, still takes a beating. The 17/3/1 has great saves, evasion and great AC. Spell points will always be somewhat of an issue, not coming anywhere near my pure 20 cleric, but that's the sacrifice you make and it is easily remedied with pots/scrolls/wands etc.