True Resurrection v. Resurrection

[Carpone]

Is there any content (epic or otherwise) where True Resurrection is an absolute must, where Resurrection would not suffice?

[Matuse]

Any content where you care about spellpoint efficiency.

[Arkat]

Any content where you care about spellpoint efficiency.

-1 Rep for the smart-alecky answer.

The OP is new. Care to answer in a more helpful manner?

Perhaps you could explain why one is more spellpoint efficient than the other. After all, it may not be as spellpoint efficient for YOU to cast True Resurrection but it may be more efficient for the PARTY if you True Res a Caster or other Healer who had a full Mana bar right before he/she died.

[Matuse]

Rez+Heal is more spellpoints than True Rez.

[Lithic]

Are you playing a favored soul? If so, don't bother memorizing True Rez. On my lvl 20 FvS, I only have raise dead, and to hell with those who insist I need resurrection or better.

Ressurection is plenty IMO, especially if you don't mind tossing around a few heal scrolls. For a cleric that can memorize all of the lvl 9s anyway, you may as well use true rez.

Ideally, if you are worried about spell points (which a favored soul shouldn't), then you could always use a ressurection scroll and then top off with heal scrolls. These are both orders of magnitude cheaper than sp potions.

[Nott]

On my lvl 20 FvS, I only have raise dead, and to hell with those who insist I need resurrection or better.

For most non-raiding situations, I agree with you. If you raid though, you'll be ineffective with only raise dead because you won't be able to cure people fast enough post-raise to keep them alive in too many situations. Raise dead is fine for the controlled situation, but not when the spit hits the fan.

[Arkat]

Oh no...MINUS REP! WHATEVER SHALL I DO?

There was nothing smart-alecky about my answer, and the OP's forum account is 3 months old.

Rez+Heal is more spellpoints than True Rez.

Oh, and bite me. Rep that.

The following two answers are much better than yours. They may be right or they may be wrong but they at least gave a rationale for their thinking.

Are you playing a favored soul? If so, don't bother memorizing True Rez. On my lvl 20 FvS, I only have raise dead, and to hell with those who insist I need resurrection or better.

Ressurection is plenty IMO, especially if you don't mind tossing around a few heal scrolls. For a cleric that can memorize all of the lvl 9s anyway, you may as well use true rez.

Ideally, if you are worried about spell points (which a favored soul shouldn't), then you could always use a ressurection scroll and then top off with heal scrolls. These are both orders of magnitude cheaper than sp potions.

For most non-raiding situations, I agree with you. If you raid though, you'll be ineffective with only raise dead because you won't be able to cure people fast enough post-raise to keep them alive in too many situations. Raise dead is fine for the controlled situation, but not when the spit hits the fan.

Good points made by the both of you.

+1 Rep each!

[Sinni]

i personally went for true res. one is the reason already mentioned, you use less spellpoints this way. the other reason is the spell selection:
i can't fit resurrection in because of mass spell resistance, mass protection from elements and destruction
raise dead is on the same level as break enchantment (for those enemy BB and firewalls), greater command, true seeing and mass cure light wounds
i can fit in true res tough. or am i underestimating energy drain? if so i guess i'd throw out mass prot from elements

[Arkat]

i personally went for true res. one is the reason already mentioned, you use less spellpoints this way. the other reason is the spell selection:
i can't fit resurrection in because of mass spell resistance, mass protection from elements and destruction
raise dead is on the same level as break enchantment (for those enemy BB and firewalls), greater command, true seeing and mass cure light wounds
i can fit in true res tough. or am i underestimating energy drain? if so i guess i'd throw out mass prot from elements

In Shavarath content, you'll find Energy Drain invaluable if you try to use Destruction on monsters. I'd think seriously about keeping that spell.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Anyway, on my FvS, I have Raise Dead, Resurrection and Undying Call. I could probably swap out Raise Dead, but I haven't yet. Spell slots are precious commodity at certain levels as a FvS, especially since you don't get the Cures for free like a cleric.

[Carpone]

Yes, I'm playing a Favored Soul.

If you raid though, you'll be ineffective with only raise dead because you won't be able to cure people fast enough post-raise to keep them alive in too many situations. Raise dead is fine for the controlled situation, but not when the spit hits the fan.

This the the kind of thing I'm looking for. Ideally I'd like to get Implosion, Mass Heal and Energy Drain as my 9th levels spells so I'm trying to determine if it's practical to ditch True Resurrection for Resurrection. SP efficiency when bringing people back from the dead isn't a high concern for me.

[chrislb20]

i personally went for true res. one is the reason already mentioned, you use less spellpoints this way. the other reason is the spell selection:
i can't fit resurrection in because of mass spell resistance, mass protection from elements and destruction
raise dead is on the same level as break enchantment (for those enemy BB and firewalls), greater command, true seeing and mass cure light wounds
i can fit in true res tough. or am i underestimating energy drain? if so i guess i'd throw out mass prot from elements

on a fvs i'd drop spell resistance 90% of the casters you face only fail on a 1

also tho it may be expensive i carry the raise spell and use scrolls for rezzing when people will need more hp's

[sirgog]

Yes, I'm playing a Favored Soul.


This the the kind of thing I'm looking for. Ideally I'd like to get Implosion, Mass Heal and Energy Drain as my 9th levels spells so I'm trying to determine if it's practical to ditch True Resurrection for Resurrection. SP efficiency when bringing people back from the dead isn't a high concern for me.

Take Implosion at 18 when it's good, ditch it at 20 for True Rez as *everything* (only real exception is Shroud trash) is immune to Implosion at endgame (unless you are favor/speedrunning easier content).

The main reason to have True Rez is that it can really turn around a raid/epic dungeon situation that's going to hell. Example: In Tower of Despair part 2, if a Shadowfiend kills six party members, you want to be able to get the highest hp Cleric/FvS up immediately and have them able to survive (quickened True Rez). Then you can use the separate cooldown of Raise Dead to try to get someone else up. (Similar situations against Epic Raiyum are common too)


Be warned - True Rez has a pretty long cooldown (12 seconds) so you don't want to rely on it as your only raise effect.

[Carpone]

The main reason to have True Rez is that it can really turn around a raid/epic dungeon situation that's going to hell. Example: In Tower of Despair part 2, if a Shadowfiend kills six party members, you want to be able to get the highest hp Cleric/FvS up immediately and have them able to survive (quickened True Rez). Then you can use the separate cooldown of Raise Dead to try to get someone else up. (Similar situations against Epic Raiyum are common too)

I can't help but to read this two ways:

1. I'm a bad healer and couldn't keep people alive.
2. Other players are bad because they did something dumb and got instagibbed.

I'd rather focus on being a better player and keeping people alive than being a better rezzer because others did something dumb. Maybe I'm way off the mark as I haven't done ToD or epic Raiyum. As a refugee raid healer from other MMOs, it feels like the bar in DDO isn't set very high (rez zerging, really?)

[Nott]

I can't help but to read this two ways:

1. I'm a bad healer and couldn't keep people alive.
2. Other players are bad because they did something dumb and got instagibbed.

I'd rather focus on being a better player and keeping people alive than being a better rezzer because others did something dumb. Maybe I'm way off the mark as I haven't done ToD or epic Raiyum. As a refugee raid healer from other MMOs, it feels like the bar in DDO isn't set very high (rez zerging, really?)

I don't see anyone suggesting sacrificing healing in order to resurrect -- in fact, if that's happening, then priorities are backwards. You cannot treat the symptom without treating the cause, if your goal is to prevent the symptom.

Your post seems to suggest that if a healer is good enough, then noone will ever die. I can't argue that position, other than to say no healer is that good. Bottom line, in DDO, is players will die. [The cause... be it bad healer or bad player or something else... just doesn't matter, and finger-pointing games won't change that.] Once you've accepted that people will die, you (as a FvS or cleric) need to decide how you're going to manage the eventuality. That's what people in this thread have been discussing.

Rez zerging? I suppose people do that but by that point, you've already lost (or will just barely win), since when you die, you've got a negative level for every death you've taken in the instance. It doesn't take long before you're more worthless alive than dead in that situation.

[Matuse]

Because if one of your groupmates rolls a 1 vs Disintegrate when fighting a Beholder, you're a bad healer.

Also, you're a bad healer if someone runs into pike traps on Elite and takes 700 damage in 3/10ths of a second.

Naturally, being hit by a 300 point meteor swarm from a Living Meteor in the Sub or Enter The Kobold is due to the healer being incompetent.

And not forgetting that when the melee pull each of the 4 bosses in Shroud2 to disparate corners, it's only through complete ineptitude that any of them die due to the healer running around between all 4 and not being good enough to cast through walls.

[Carpone]

Because if one of your groupmates rolls a 1 vs Disintegrate when fighting a Beholder, you're a bad healer.

Unless it's a boss fight, it doesn't matter to me. The example above was six people dying during a raid, which would necessitate rez spells on different cooldown timers to recover quickly. Six people aren't going to roll a 1 in that short amount of time. If six people are dying in short order, then it's time to change tactics.

Also, you're a bad healer if someone runs into pike traps on Elite and takes 700 damage in 3/10ths of a second.

One rez spell is sufficient. If it's not a boss fight, then I really don't care how long the cooldown is on my rez spells.

Naturally, being hit by a 300 point meteor swarm from a Living Meteor in the Sub or Enter The Kobold is due to the healer being incompetent.

300 hit points isn't exactly a high watermark. Also, isn't moving out of the way of the meteors an option?

And not forgetting that when the melee pull each of the 4 bosses in Shroud2 to disparate corners, it's only through complete ineptitude that any of them die due to the healer running around between all 4 and not being good enough to cast through walls.

If one healer can't keep them up, then adding rez spells into the rotation isn't going to improve your success rate. Bring more than one healer to a raid, perhaps?

[Arkat]

I don't see anyone suggesting sacrificing healing in order to resurrect -- in fact, if that's happening, then priorities are backwards. You cannot treat the symptom without treating the cause, if your goal is to prevent the symptom.

Your post seems to suggest that if a healer is good enough, then noone will ever die. I can't argue that position, other than to say no healer is that good. Bottom line, in DDO, is players will die. [The cause... be it bad healer or bad player or something else... just doesn't matter, and finger-pointing games won't change that.] Once you've accepted that people will die, you (as a FvS or cleric) need to decide how you're going to manage the eventuality. That's what people in this thread have been discussing.

Rez zerging? I suppose people do that but by that point, you've already lost (or will just barely win), since when you die, you've got a negative level for every death you've taken in the instance. It doesn't take long before you're more worthless alive than dead in that situation.

Well said.

+1 (when I spread some more Rep around first )

Because if one of your groupmates rolls a 1 vs Disintegrate when fighting a Beholder, you're a bad healer.

Also, you're a bad healer if someone runs into pike traps on Elite and takes 700 damage in 3/10ths of a second.

Naturally, being hit by a 300 point meteor swarm from a Living Meteor in the Sub or Enter The Kobold is due to the healer being incompetent.

And not forgetting that when the melee pull each of the 4 bosses in Shroud2 to disparate corners, it's only through complete ineptitude that any of them die due to the healer running around between all 4 and not being good enough to cast through walls.

I see your points but is it too much to ask that you make them in a less snotty and sarcastic manner?

Unless it's a boss fight, it doesn't matter to me. The example above was six people dying during a raid, which would necessitate rez spells on different cooldown timers to recover quickly. Six people aren't going to roll a 1 in that short amount of time. If six people are dying in short order, then it's time to change tactics.


One rez spell is sufficient. If it's not a boss fight, then I really don't care how long the cooldown is on my rez spells.


300 hit points isn't exactly a high watermark. Also, isn't moving out of the way of the meteors an option?


If one healer can't keep them up, then adding rez spells into the rotation isn't going to improve your success rate. Bring more than one healer to a raid, perhaps?

Carpone, please see Nott's point above. I believe he has gotten to heart of the point of the OP's thread. Could you perhaps address Nott's point?

Thanks.

[SimVerg]

Maybe I'm way off the mark as I haven't done ToD or epic Raiyum.

Yep. Both situations feature massive instant ae damage as a possibility in the event of bad luck, lag, or incompetence on the part of a kiter.

[Xithos]

If your party members are dying left and right you are doing it wrong. True Res is really nice, but not required for anything.