Please don't make a battle cleric

[hermespan]

Role is not defined by class.
Specify what role you want in your LFM instead of specifying a class, the player of which may or may not fill the role you want filled.

Examples:
Bad LFM: Need cleric, fvs (when you need a healer)
Good LFM: Need healer (opens up classes to FvS, Cleric, and other classes that can heal)

Problem solved.

The first LFM can lead to trouble, the second clearly indicates that you want a healer. If you get a BC with the second LFM you can feel free to berate the player when they don't heal anyone. Otherwise you got what you asked for.

Don't get upset when you get what you ask for because, well, you got what you asked for.

[krud]

Again, being able to do something well does not make it a main role, and it has nothing to do with the number of years you have played a game. Nothing at all.

That is like saying that a wizard's main role is travel. Yes they can do it, but that does not make it a main role. it has to do with common sense and logic, and not the game.

Not at all like the wizard example. You are equating something very minor and barely related to the class with something that is a large part of the cleric's arsenal. Maybe the groups you run with relegate the cleric to healbot, but I have been thru many quests that went very smoothly where i've spent more mana on cc than healing. Clerics can banish their way thru the vale as well as any wizard. There are a number of clerics that dominate at high levels with bb. Healbot is only as much a cleric's main role as trapmonkey is a rogue's main role.

[Irinis]

the more important thing is if a BC wants to melee, do not join the lfm looking for a healer

QFT

Also, please heal yourself if the only other person in the party capable of ANY healing is a Warchanter, tyvm.

[Lorz]

Ah, another of "those" threads :/

Clerics are overrated.

I just make chars that are so **** uber they don't need a cleric. My WF wizzy allways has an extra inventory slot for BCs soul stone

Hey that is my LINE..and being a card carrying 28pt old school cleric from Lhazaar...I can say

[Vouivre]

Not at all like the wizard example. You are equating something very minor and barely related to the class with something that is a large part of the cleric's arsenal. Maybe the groups you run with relegate the cleric to healbot, but I have been thru many quests that went very smoothly where i've spent more mana on cc than healing. Clerics can banish their way thru the vale as well as any wizard. There are a number of clerics that dominate at high levels with bb. Healbot is only as much a cleric's main role as trapmonkey is a rogue's main role.

That is exactly what I was talking about earlier in the thread and you just proved my point for me. What others believe your role should be is their own stupidity and small mindedness. A group that is upset over getting a BC when they didn't specifically ask for a healer has no one to blame but their own dumb selves. It is not the fault of the BC unless he/she responds to a LFM which specifically asked for a healer.

The general idea behind what a cleric is supposed to do (according to those opposed to BCs as evidenced in this thread) is heal and cure most of the time. That would be the definition of their primary roles through most of the game. A BC doesn't do this most of the time, and therefore according to that theory that makes them a bad choice. A BC who is capable of taking out mobs on their own and being self sufficient is a hell of a lot better than most other classes who want the cleric to hold their hand and wipe their butts for them through the whole game.

[krud]

That is exactly what I was talking about earlier in the thread and you just proved my point for me. What others believe your role should be is their own stupidity and small mindedness. A group that is upset over getting a BC when they didn't specifically ask for a healer has no one to blame but their own dumb selves. It is not the fault of the BC unless he/she responds to a LFM which specifically asked for a healer.

The general idea behind what a cleric is supposed to do (according to those opposed to BCs as evidenced in this thread) is heal and cure most of the time. That would be the definition of their primary roles through most of the game. A BC doesn't do this most of the time, and therefore according to that theory that makes them a bad choice. A BC who is capable of taking out mobs on their own and being self sufficient is a hell of a lot better than most other classes who want the cleric to hold their hand and wipe their butts for them through the whole game.

/agreed

I entered this thread to answer the post asking "what exactly is a battle cleric?". Somehow our lines of thought got tangled. All I was saying is that casting cc and offensive spells is as much a part of being a cleric as healing. Using a cleric's offensive spells isn't doing anything out of the ordinary for a cleric, at least not enough to warrant the additional term "battle' cleric. Picking up a melee weapon, a melee class and some feats is, on the other hand, doing something out of the ordinary for a primarily spell casting class. imo a battle cleric is like a battle mage; someone who is built for or focuses on melee.

[Vouivre]

/agreed

I entered this thread to answer the post asking "what exactly is a battle cleric?". Somehow our lines of thought got tangled. All I was saying is that casting cc and offensive spells is as much a part of being a cleric as healing. Using a cleric's offensive spells isn't doing anything out of the ordinary for a cleric, at least not enough to warrant the additional term "battle' cleric. Picking up a melee weapon, a melee class and some feats is, on the other hand, doing something out of the ordinary for a primarily spell casting class. imo a battle cleric is like a battle mage; someone who is built for or focuses on melee.

I always thought of a battle cleric or a battle mage as one of that class who specialized in battle in general be it melee or spells. Of course I do come from a long gaming background of casters who had specialized roles unlike here in DDO.

An offensive caster cleric is no better or worse a healer than what most consider a BC. Neither is interested in healing.

[Greydeath]

Usually that is not the case. The difference between a wizard or sorc and a cleric is that those two classes main roles are generally utility and damge, where a cleric is healing and curing.

So that argument is irrelevant. You wanted to correct someone, and got corrected yourself. No matter your argument, you are still incorrect.

The only one that has been wrong, it you. It is fortunate that you correct yourself by the end of the thread, since clearly at this stage you have no idea *** you are talking about.

But in any event, I corrected someone that was wrong, and have since been correcting you - enjoy!

Please don't fix things you don't understand. Having the ability to do something does not make it a main role. What you are attempting to say is that cleric's main roles are healing, curing, DPS, AND CC. So everything they can do is a main role? That isn't even slightly logical.

Again, trying to defend your indefensible position just makes you laughable...

Again, being able to do something well does not make it a main role, and it has nothing to do with the number of years you have played a game. Nothing at all.

That is like saying that a wizard's main role is travel. Yes they can do it, but that does not make it a main role. it has to do with common sense and logic, and not the game.

You apparently need some serious work on what defines a 'main role' - fortunately others have wasted their time schooling you, saving me the trouble and you the embarassment.

[Greydeath]

Given how you constantly fail at debating, I wonder why I would lower myself to your level. Nevertheless, let us look at just how bad you have fracked this up…

Since I posted inthis thread before you even did I Fail to see how you can chastise me for Jumping int he middle of of a debate.....

This is in response to a post directed at someone else. Pretty big of you to mistakenly assume it was meant for you.

Interesting since I had not quoted you, as a matter of fact, you hadnt even posted in the thread when I made my Battle cleric comment... Talk about Obtuse......

This was in response to me responding to your usual stupidity. If he is wrong, he is wrong. I am not going to waste my time to spell it out for him. With the regularity that I have to correct you, I am amazed that you have not yet figured this out…


In any event, your original definition is so wrong, it is super wrong:

ANy cleric that desires to do more than Heal and buff is indeed a battle cleric of some sort.

As has been shown by both myself and others.

School is now out; have a day

[krud]

I always thought of a battle cleric or a battle mage as one of that class who specialized in battle in general be it melee or spells. Of course I do come from a long gaming background of casters who had specialized roles unlike here in DDO.

An offensive caster cleric is no better or worse a healer than what most consider a BC. Neither is interested in healing.

only the poorly played ones aren't interested in healing. A battle cleric is the most difficult kind of cleric to play well.

Healbot has one duty in combat - just watch the health bars.

casting cleric has two - cast offense, and pay attention to health bars.

battle cleric has three - melee, cast offense, and pay attention to health bars.

A well played battle cleric can handle all three of those duties. The poorly played clerics can only focus only one duty at a time. Sometimes that is all that is needed. IMO a battle cleric that refuses to heal party members, even in dire circumstances, is like a rogue who refuses to disable traps. "I got evasion, I can just run through the trap." I'm not saying they need to be a nanny bot, but if they are in the best position to save a party or party member from a bad situation with a well timed heal, then they should at least try. The good battle clerics do. The poorly played ones don't.

[Greydeath]

I have a guildie that ran with what I consider a true battle cleric(Pre Mod9/cap at 16) , a Dwarf Fighter7/Paladin3/Cleric6 or something like that, it was a strange build but he had high HP, AC, saves and Damage -Dual GS Dwarven Axes(pulled aggro off DPS Barbarian's regularly), even threw mass cures in the midst of battle. It was an impressive survivable build, He solo healed shroud while in the midst of melee. Unfortunately he had to solo a lot because he allways had a hard time getting into pug groups because of his unique build.

With that class split, he is not a Cleric... and while extremely unlikely, if he is indeed dropping mass cures then he is not doing it very well

[Yagi]

I try to be as efficiant as possible on my clerics, in everything they do. That means I watch how I use my mana and resources, what heals I use on who depending on incoming dps or the potential inc dps of any given enemy, what buffs we need up, what we dont need up, what saves/abilities a mob typically has vs what spells I use to disable/kill them if any, and yes it means that I am not idle in between heals. Nobody is going to die around me if it is at all possible to save them, but *I am not going to stand in the back napping between heals unless there is a good reason to do so. Often this means I am meleeing. Why not? I generally know what the mobs are going to do and what I can do to counter or avoid their attacks, and I also pay attention to what my team is doing.

For instance if we are fighting undead and I see teamates rocking disruptors (meaning that I dont have to) is there any compelling reason for me to not use an imp cursespewing weapon on all the mobs in between heals if I can stay alive and keep everybody alive while doing so?

I've been called a "battle cleric" because I run clerics with a barb splash, which is kind of funny to me as they meant a melee cleric when they used the term and if I was building a cleric with actual melee dps in mind, I'd make it very differently. The barb splash is actually for defense and utility and when I made them I weighed out the pros and cons in relation to my ability to heal encounters 1-20+raids, nothing else (I did factor in everything else, other aspects of the class simply were not involved in my final decisions). So I've pretty much learned to ignore the entire "battle cleric" angle, since the people in game who have mentioned it to me had no idea what I was going for and apparently didnt think about it enough to understand what they were talking about, and as far as I am concerned, every cleric is a battle cleric. There are simply varying degrees of success with the class itself and that is up to the player/group.

*Of course sometimes the most efficiant thing to do is not be in melee combat, that is also a very real aspect of some encounters and its one that I fully recognize and act upon.

[Emili]

I be thinking ... maybe they should lock new players out of all classes ... except "War Priest."

[Cedwin]

Didn't want to read the entire thread, so maybe this was already mentioned.

How else can a cleric solo without being a battle cleric? Specifically from levels 1-10.

Divine Caster?

Sure you can Greater Command everything, but then what? Heal yourself and run away? Blow through all your spell points throwing searing lights and flame strikes?

[Yagi]

I was creating a ranger for the upcoming update, and got invited into a run of that harbor quest where you have to destroy Yaaryaar's schooner, I forget the name at the moment. Its a quest that involves a large open area, and lots of small skirmishes against a mix of melee and caster types that like to go invisible.

The group was
Ranger - me
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Cleric

they were all sort of new, I could tell in conversations with them. The Cleric was the last to join.

They pushed for Elite, I wasn't too worried though, with so many fighters and a healer to back us up, we had all we really needed.

However, running into the FIRST group of enemies down the hill and to the left, I noticed something odd.
*DING* Fighter 1 has died.
*DING* Fighter 3 has died.
and me at half health, giving myself a wand whipping back to full.

I took a glance at the Party list, and the Cleric had 3/4ths of his mana bar. he was currently running toward a retreating enemy, one of the bow bugbears, swinging his mace. I asked him why, and he replied "I'm a battle cleric".

I immediately recalled and broke party.

I have nothing against battle clerics, I know a good few of them who are better than healbots. But please, PLEASE...If you are going to make a battle cleric, Dont be Free To Play, Inform people you are one, and KNOW what you are doing beforehand.

So instead of trying to manage pulls you ragequit? You dont even need a healer for irestone, you just need everybody to be on the same page. Why shouldnt the cleric be chasing after the mob killing it when the group is full of squishy fighters and rangers that stop to heal themselves from half hp despite there being *fleeing* mobs about? Somebody has to.

[samho]

Didn't want to read the entire thread, so maybe this was already mentioned.

How else can a cleric solo without being a battle cleric? Specifically from levels 1-10.

Divine Caster?

Sure you can Greater Command everything, but then what? Heal yourself and run away? Blow through all your spell points throwing searing lights and flame strikes?

This is really depend on how you definte a "battle cleric".

My offensive casting cleric starts with 16 strength, and surely able to melee enough thing down without much trouble (He end up with 28 strength at level 20, with 39 wisdom at the moment). That's been said, have a ok strength doesn't reduce your divine casting ability, as it can help out your cleric carrier even if you didn't go for pure melee stuff.

[JasonJi72]

only the poorly played ones aren't interested in healing. A battle cleric is the most difficult kind of cleric to play well.

Healbot has one duty in combat - just watch the health bars.

casting cleric has two - cast offense, and pay attention to health bars.

battle cleric has three - melee, cast offense, and pay attention to health bars.

A well played battle cleric can handle all three of those duties. The poorly played clerics can only focus only one duty at a time. Sometimes that is all that is needed. IMO a battle cleric that refuses to heal party members, even in dire circumstances, is like a rogue who refuses to disable traps. "I got evasion, I can just run through the trap." I'm not saying they need to be a nanny bot, but if they are in the best position to save a party or party member from a bad situation with a well timed heal, then they should at least try. The good battle clerics do. The poorly played ones don't.

Whew! I finally made it through all that. I was trying to decide if my Cleric was classified as a BC or not. I would say no, but it looks like he might be treated as such when he draws his greatsword, and starts hacking away. I gotta say the Path to Enlightenment post should be required reading for any person who plays, or will ever play with a Cleric, Favored Soul, or Bard.

I went all Wis and Con on my first Cleric, thinking to capitalize on cc spells and healing. It quickly turned into a healbot who needed help with any type of combat. Boring... ctl alt del. While making the Cleric I have now, I wanted to be more well rounded, and be worthy of the title Cleric. A good Cleric can do all 3. There is a learning curve, but it has made me a better player. I have found that a 2h weapon is a great weapon for a Cleric, since it allows me to help deal damage while standing behind my friends, and comes in very handy when the 3 rangers I am with start falling back from the mob they are kiting towards me. I intend to take power attack at level 12 when divine favor matures. Do these two feats make me a battle cleric? I don't know, I am just a Cleric in my view, and I will work hard to honor that name with deeds.

Being very conservative with my mana, I have no intention of spending every point on healing and buffing others. Very inefficient; been there done that. Control spells and using my blade have saved me almost as much mana as I have wasted on the 1/3 hp Fighter turning a corner to engage another group. FYI I didn't need the hp, I was already topped off, but I guess I'll take em anyway lol. So anyway, I tend to use cc spells for large groups, help deal damage while the group is healthy, go into heal mode, then help finish off the stragglers. Occassionally, somebody may drop while I am engaged, but only when they go down in a couple of seconds. I always feel guilty, but I might not have been able to save them in the first place, and they should have used a potion. I usually get the hp for them too lol.

On a final note, one thing that is an integral part of this game is the class icons by your name. No matter what the build, you will be expected to perform basic tasks associated with that class. I would like to build what I would consider to be a good melee build; 8 ftr, 12 Cleric/FS, but I do not want to deal with all the hoopla. In my eyes that character would be a front line warrior who can also cast spells. That would be a battle cleric. So don't get too excited when you see my Cleric using a huge sword, because my Cleric is a Cleric.

If you still think my guy is a bc, then I guess this post is for me, since I have only been playing here for 6 months. I do however play him very well and I am getting better.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Impaqt]

Given how you constantly fail at debating, I wonder why I would lower myself to your level. Nevertheless, let us look at just how bad you have fracked this up…

This is in response to a post directed at someone else. Pretty big of you to mistakenly assume it was meant for you.

Then DONT quote ME when you respond.

This was in response to me responding to your usual stupidity. If he is wrong, he is wrong. I am not going to waste my time to spell it out for him. With the regularity that I have to correct you, I am amazed that you have not yet figured this out…

No. Stating someone is "Wrong" doesnt cut it at all unless you can back it up. Something YOU fail at regularly.

In any event, your original definition is so wrong, it is super wrong:
As has been shown by both myself and others.

School is now out; have a day

Well that certainly clears things up. I'm very glad I did not attend your school....

[Vouivre]

The only one that has been wrong, it you. It is fortunate that you correct yourself by the end of the thread, since clearly at this stage you have no idea *** you are talking about.

But in any event, I corrected someone that was wrong, and have since been correcting you - enjoy!


Again, trying to defend your indefensible position just makes you laughable...




You apparently need some serious work on what defines a 'main role' - fortunately others have wasted their time schooling you, saving me the trouble and you the embarassment.

I know it is hard for someone of your limited mental capacity to understand that you are a lost cause, but you are. I'll leave it at that, I'm sure it's not the first time you've heard it in your life.

[Mercules]

Try this experiment:

Take a party of random players with no "designated healer" and run an adventure. Watch the return to tactics, pulling, CC, blocking doorways, and people curing their own ills with wands and pots.

Then add someone with a Cleric symbol by their name into the mix. Watch running into a room and swinging, calling out for easily remedied status affect removal, ignoring CC, and running through traps become the norm again.