Please don't make a battle cleric

[biggin]

What in your opinion is the difference between playing a ranger or paladin rather than a BC other than other people's opinions on what clerics should be?

Because people expect rangers and pali's to fight. People expect clerics to heal. Not usually do you see a ranger answer a LFM asking for a clr/fvs saying they can heal the group. I can roll up a BC and probably play it pretty well because I already know how to set my spell selection per quest, people on the server to run with, etc. Someone new to the game who is running things for the first time doesn't have this knowledge.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Was running Hazadil's the other day. Came time for the swim through traps and the rogue gets murdered in the first tunnel on norm. So someone asks, what's your reflex score? His answer? 8. At level 14. Now is this build viable? Of course it is, just not to fill the trap/evasion slot. That's good knowledge to know before a group walks into a quest. Would they still have taken him? IDK, but he didn't feel good about it. He didn't know what his reflex was supposed to be or that dexterity was even important to a rogue. People should play what they want, I completely agree. But there are certain roles we play in DDO. When you go outside of those roles it makes people wary of you unless they know you are a solid player.

[Vouivre]

Then wouldn't it as well be important to post about people being smart enough to ask if the player is a healing cleric? I don't accept blind invites, ever. Even if I am on the LFG, I deny every invite that comes in since I tag myself as not accepting blind invites. Whether I am playing my heal cleric or battle cleric.

[Greydeath]

ANy cleric that desires to do more than Heal and buff is indeed a battle cleric of some sort.

Incorrect

[Vouivre]

Incorrect

Actually it would be correct by general definition, however incorrect by your definition.

[Greydeath]

I don't think I know. I do know. After more than 3 years of running nothing but clerics I know for a fact. It's a numbers game. There is no way possible for you to solo heal high end raids as a battle cleric because you don't have the spell pool. Other than on the few runs where I am with Legion, Bane, Pestilence, etc (none of which I am a part of) will I have SP left, sometimes even having to click my bauble for that little extra.

Apparently you do not know, because this is false. You even disagree with yourself and prove our point: good groups can do fine with solo BC healing in end game raids.

We agree that it is not an easy role to play; we disagree that it cannot be done.

[Greydeath]

Actually it would be correct by general definition, however incorrect by your definition.

No - it is incorrect by general definition.

[Vouivre]

No - it is incorrect by general definition.

In the english language it would imply a cleric who battles. So you are in fact incorrect.

[acidtiger]

Sigh, Battlecleric hate strikes again...

I have 2 'battle clerics' and a pure cleric. I've only been back to the game since it went f2p, but I'm a compulsive reader/researcher about the class. I like to think I've done my homework. I didn't make a move on the first battle cleric without consulting Sirgog or posts of his :>

I'll agree that a 28pt battle cleric in the hands of most new players is dangerous. I think its those unskilled and unprepared people that make 'battle cleric' a bad word.

Why the heck would anyone take a cleric and make it a melee toon if you have no intentions of at the very least keeping yourself alive. Make a fighter, pali or barb if you have no plans on casting cures/heals. And don't even get me started with that warpriest premade path...

With that said, any sort of cleric (or fvs) in the hands of a decent player should be an asset to a group. My battle cleric and a friend's melee orientated fvs toon pulled a phase5 out of the crapper the other day because the pure fvs and pure cleric were subpar at their jobs.

So don't hate on the build, try to educate the new ppl (which I think was the OP's point).

[samho]

And to the person who said I am doing a disservice to the new players and that his battle cleric can solo heal raids. Either a) you drink 20 pots per raid or b) you didn't make a BC. And Tempest Spine doesn't count. If you've solo healed every raid in the game but TOD (where lag can rip a raid down in 3 seconds) then I apologize.

This is totally depend on what you mean about the solo heal thing. In a good team-work raid party, you can certianly make a lot of raid easier even with fairly low sp pool. My suggestion here was do not use such a bold statement right here next time you want to claim something. As it certianlly is not true. I'm pretty sure Nightward must not be the only BC who been the solo cleric on non-ToD normal raid, thanks for the DDO Korea guys on Ghallanda keep pulling some odd raid party and convince me to stay on my battle cleric back to the day of mod 7. Of course, these kind of raid experience are not common, but it could be done.

[biggin]

Apparently you do not know, because this is false. You even disagree with yourself and prove our point: good groups can do fine with solo BC healing in end game raids.

We agree that it is not an easy role to play; we disagree that it cannot be done.

You can also say that no cleric is needed in a WF party. That also would be correct. I didn't say end game raids could be solo healed by a BC without pots. This is directed at NEW PLAYERS WITH 28 POINT BUILDS. Even the gimped 28 point cleric build I made 3 years ago could be fine in almost any situation with 260 HP end game. Would I recommend this build with for a new player? Not in a million years. What you or I may be able to do isn't the point. It's what the majority of new players can do that has me worried.

[biggin]

This is totally depend on what you mean about the solo heal thing. In a good team-work raid party, you can certianly make a lot of raid easier even with fairly low sp pool. My suggestion here was do not use such a bold statement right here next time you want to claim something. As it certianlly is not true. I'm pretty sure Nightward must not be the only BC who been the solo cleric on non-ToD normal raid, thanks for the DDO Korea guys on Ghallanda keep pulling some odd raid party and convince me to stay on my battle cleric back to the day of mod 7. Of course, these kind of raid experience are not common, but it could be done.

Of course they can, but by a 28 pt BC who is new to DDO? They may be able to but by a very very select few. Can anyone honestly say that if they were forming a Shroud, had a spot open for 1 good cleric, and got the response from a 28 pt unguilded BC, they would take them?

The reason I said that earlier was because the person I was responding to had a join date of 10/09. I asked if he just let his account go f2p and didn't get a response. Point being I don't think anyone who has 2 months under their belt in game is going to be able to heal a Shroud as a BC solo. Sure, with the right group a bard can heal a VOD with nothing but scrolls. I've walked out of those with almost full mana bars before. Could you do a Hound? Absolutely. All it really takes is scrolls anyway. But those are with great groups. How often is a new player going to be in those? I'm trying to discourage this because those good groups are sometimes hard to find. Again, this is directed at new players, unguilded or in little known guilds, who are going to have a hard time finding groups.

[PurdueDave]

It's all player, imo. A crappy player on a battle cleric is still crappy on a barbarian...it's just not as noticeable.

A new player with decent twitch skills and a clue about the tools at his disposal could, I expect, play a battle cleric character reasonably well.

[samho]

You can also say that no cleric is needed in a WF party. That also would be correct. I didn't say end game raids could be solo healed by a BC without pots. This is directed at NEW PLAYERS WITH 28 POINT BUILDS. Even the gimped 28 point cleric build I made 3 years ago could be fine in almost any situation with 260 HP end game. Would I recommend this build with for a new player? Not in a million years. What you or I may be able to do isn't the point. It's what the majority of new players can do that has me worried.

The thing was, I wouldn't even recommend any new player with 28 point cleric build to solo heal high end raid on their first run, battle cleric or not. That's all depend on your game experience and skill, knowledge as well as gear set up, where a new player could not fulfilled after all. The difference of 28 point build to 32 point build wasn't as big as you thought it to be.

My opinion was quite similar to what Impaqt said in early post. Let the new cleric player choice what they want to build. We could give some suggestion and guideline, as well as some warning what they may encounter with their build choice, but that's it. Even if a good number of them decide to go for battle cleric at their first build, the community still benefit from it as a whole.

1) If he learn enough experience and skill from his early attempt and success, great, we now get a new good BC

2) If he didn't pull out enough BC experience and skill, you still got a cleric which can be fixed to be a generalist type cleric, as every party looking for a cleric can still benefit from it.

3) If he didn't make his way to high enough level and decide to dump it, fine -- it's no worse than another person who play other class and decide to reroll.

4) Frankly, the whole process may even make other player learn the importance of self sufficient which will benefit all of us (cleric or not) in the long run

[biggin]

It's all player, imo. A crappy player on a battle cleric is still crappy on a barbarian...it's just not as noticeable.

A new player with decent twitch skills and a clue about the tools at his disposal could, I expect, play a battle cleric character reasonably well.

And I'm not really arguing that. Difference is when DPS is being asked for, most will take a barbarian. I'm seeing guys with 17/2/1 Rng/monk/rogue getting turned down for DPS slots because new people are forming groups and don't know any better. Can you imagine a BC?

[Impaqt]

No - it is incorrect by general definition.

Your ability to describe your point of view is astonishing.

[MystDragon]

The problem with Battle Clerics is often the player rather than the concept. My first character was a Battle Cleric - 28 pt. The only problem I had with him was around 12th-ish level I wasn't satisfied with his performance. My parties were happy - I wasn't.

The primary problems I found out was that I had leveled too quickly to support my gear, and that I had followed a path as my first character which really didn't mesh with how I would have leveled him. In fact, I posted all my stats here on the forums and some really great vets gave me all kind of awesome ideas to smooth him out until I could TR, gain the extra build points, and fix him with what I learned by playing the game. Now he's quite potent and I'm about to either use the new GR to smooth out new mistakes or TR - still undecided which.

Do I get kicked from parties? Nope
Do I have problems finding parties? Not generally, other than finding an actual PUG for the quest I want to run at that time (which is the same problem for any class.) In fact, when on a quest I have to go anonymous because I receive continuous tells asking me to join.
Do I have problems filling groups when I post LFM? Nope. They fill very quickly.
Do I run exclusively with my guild? Nope. I've only been on a guild run once or twice.

Because of the different threads I've seen about the battle cleric I am thinking of posting a guide to Battleclerics as my experiences indicate that a Battlecleric can be awesome - but as the OP stated, not something to rush in blindly by new players without knowing what they are doing.

First of all - Battleclerics get a REALLY bad rap when played by idiot players with no common sense. Yea, I learned by trial and error - but I always used common sense. A Battlecleric played with no common sense is just as bad - if not worse - than any other character played badly - because other players do rely on you.

A Battlecleric TO ME is a cleric who has spent time on his battle training and gear to be a better party addition - to be able to multi-task. The primary advantage in a party of a GOOD battlecleric is that you are right there near the tanks which for me has really made the difference. I especially despise being in a room with columns and obstacles as the battle flows rapidly and wasting my mana on a heal spell just to have it blown because at that exact moment an obstacle was in the way. I'm not talking about a zerging character shooting 4 rooms over and complaining that your not healing them - but a good player doing what they are supposed to be doing.

A GOOD Battlecleric to me is like a front line tactical general of an army - he needs to go where he is needed best. This means using his battle skills to augment the party, not detract from it. This DOES NOT mean he doesn't heal. He heals, he offensively casts, he fights when he doesn't have to do the previous. When fighting - you are not there to try to prove you have good DPS - you should use your battle skills to help conserve your SP's. (For example - at lower levels I would use a cursespewer to weaken enemies - now I use a paralyzer to the same effect. I'll "tag" enemies until it takes hold and then switch targets.)

A badly played Battlecleric is just like the other classes when played badly - just a lot more noticeable. You know what - the more I think about it, the more I like the idea - I'll start writing it up and post it. (Should be fun.)

[samho]

And I'm not really arguing that. Difference is when DPS is being asked for, most will take a barbarian. I'm seeing guys with 17/2/1 Rng/monk/rogue getting turned down for DPS slots because new people are forming groups and don't know any better. Can you imagine a BC?

If you want to pigeonhole your party setup by this way, then it's your choice and we wouldn't argue it after all. I like how our regular faster shroud run just pack up whatever class (with experience player behind) and go in. Is it done faster than the other shroud LFM which only the best DPS of the world could apply? Probably not. But chance are we might done the shroud run long before the prefect DPS shroud party finally filled up.

[Angelz_Fire]

If you insist on playing a battle cleric do not join a party that askes for a healer! Do not expect other healers in party to heal you, you wanted to be self sufficent use that to it's full extent "self heal".

[acidtiger]

If you insist on playing a battle cleric do not join a party that askes for a healer! Do not expect other healers in party to heal you, you wanted to be self sufficent use that to it's full extent "self heal".

While I agree with your first statement, does the reverse hold true for the second part? If you're telling healers not to heal me, should I not toss a heal to the healer...say if he/she is commanded, tripped or otherwise unable to heal themself?

You people must be getting into some really bad pugs that include battle clerics to have so much hate to toss around...

[krud]

In the english language it would imply a cleric who battles. So you are in fact incorrect.

battles with what? Typically for a battle cleric it implies melee weapons. Offensive spells alone do not make a battle cleric. If that is all that's needed for a battle cleric, then by the same measure all mages are battle mages. I don't think you'll find many people who would say a mage who throws down cc, fod, and firewalls is a battle mage.

A battle cleric is someone who melees, or is built to melee, in addition to all the other normal cleric duties (healing and/or offensive casting).