Please don't make a battle cleric

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This wasn't a post about how BC's suck. This was a post to warn off new players from trying a BC as a first toon. If you've been playing this game for any amount of time you can't honestly tell me you feel that a 28-point BC played by someone brand new to the game will be very effective. It's not a slam to the new players, I just don't think that until you get the hang of what's going on with the UI, DDO's unique rule sets, etc, that it's a toon that can be played effectively. On top of that, with all the bad pugs going on lately, how well do you see a BC being taken? The only reason many would take them is 1) filling a slot, 2) brand name guild tag.

This wasn't directed towards the vets. Most of us have guilds to run with or most recognize our name enough to know what type of player we are. All I've run on Thelanis is clerics for 3+ years (well, and a fvs now). And even still I may have trouble finding a group even knowing the cleric class as well as I do.

I think they just need to understand that people are really going to expect them to heal....a lot.

And it is a hard road if they do not want to meet that expectation.

Plus those groups that say "need healer" really do need a healer, more often than not.

Unfortunately having a cleric icon next to your name, is most likely going to have people expecting you to babysit them.

it shouldn't be this way IMO, but it is.

So be warned.

[krud]

What precisely is a battle cleric?

I have seen people call a cleric that uses a melee weapon a battle cleric, even if they healed the party and kept people up.
I have seen offensive caster clerics be called battle clerics.
I have seen cleric x/fighter x be called battle clerics, regardless of their healing capacity.
I have seen people call a cleric that never healed for a battle cleric.

At this point I am not sure what a battle cleric is.

If I go into a party as a healer and I keep people up by healing them and buff them, does it really matter if I also use a weapon or a spell to cc or kill things?

I still haven't found a good definition of a battle cleric, because I have heard so many versions of what it is.

I am honestly confused by this. If someone can help me out, I would be grateful

If this post is meant to help new players, I suggest the OP describes a battle cleric in his OP, simply because of the many weird definitions of this creature.
If you want new players to avoid making a battle cleric, please explain what it is, so they know what it is they should avoid.

For the person playing the character, a battle cleric is a cleric who isn't a healbot. To everyone else a battle cleric is a cleric who won't hjeal them. That should clear it up.

seriously, I consider a battle cleric any cleric whose main focus is melee. They fight alongside the main melee classes instead of sitting back and watching health bars. Their spells support the melee role. An offensive casting cleric is just doing what any normal cleric can do, and is not a battle cleric, imo. You don't call mages "battle mages" because they can throw down cc and firewalls, do you?

[Impaqt]

What precisely is a battle cleric?

I have seen people call a cleric that uses a melee weapon a battle cleric, even if they healed the party and kept people up.
I have seen offensive caster clerics be called battle clerics.
I have seen cleric x/fighter x be called battle clerics, regardless of their healing capacity.
I have seen people call a cleric that never healed for a battle cleric.

At this point I am not sure what a battle cleric is.

If I go into a party as a healer and I keep people up by healing them and buff them, does it really matter if I also use a weapon or a spell to cc or kill things?

I still haven't found a good definition of a battle cleric, because I have heard so many versions of what it is.

I am honestly confused by this. If someone can help me out, I would be grateful

If this post is meant to help new players, I suggest the OP describes a battle cleric in his OP, simply because of the many weird definitions of this creature.
If you want new players to avoid making a battle cleric, please explain what it is, so they know what it is they should avoid.

The answer is quite simple. Its "All of the above"

ANy cleric that desires to do more than Heal and buff is indeed a battle cleric of some sort.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is the biggest problem I see. Too many newer players for some reason dont understand this concept. 4 melees and a caster in the group with the LFM up for a Cleric or FvS and they hit the join button but then do not heal anyone.. Sometimes not even themselves.... Bad form.

It always amazes me when they dont heal themselves.

I think this is just being new to the game.

Its similar to no one buying pots. Pals and Rgrs who don't know they can use wands.

A guy rolls up a toon, thinks the cleric looks cool. Then goes and plays them just like everyone else plays....charge into battle swing your weapon, and don't give a though to anyone's HP...including their own.

It's just more obvious when the guy doing it is a cleric.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

*gulp* My barb is self-sufficient *gulp* he haz 9999hp and even more pots. You just wait till I heal myself
*gulp* *gulp* *gulp*

Barbarians and self sufficiency do not mix well.
And those pots are darned expensive.

But those scrolls are expensive too.

A good party will realise this and everyone will help out the best they can.






(At lvl 1 a shield is less exensive than a stack of pots btw.)

[Cyr]

The OP's post is doing a disservice to the new player base. Not because it is not well written or thought out, but because it uses far too general a term.

Battle Cleric.

A) 17+ cleric level offensive caster. Not too bad to gear up. Very fun to play. Not too difficult to build. Works well in parties and in solo. Players must be aware that in certain raid situations in particular you may NEED to just be healing for a time.

B) 17+ cleric level offensive melee/ranged... Much more gear to make effective. May be fun to play. Melee damage negligible in most cases at high end. Makes sacrifices for mediocre at best melee/ranged skills to their core strengths. Attacking often distracts newer players from being productive members of the party. Same requirement for healing in certain raids of course, but players are more likely to not do it.

C) Less then 17 levels of cleric rest melee focused mix. Most common mixes have 11-12 levels of cleric. Huge sacrifices are made in build to help melee. Tons of gear is required to not have a gimped toon. Build's real strength is self heals. Build never DPS's as good as a melee character built half way decent. Often has serious difficulties healing party or raids in harder content. Very good solo build, but very bad group build as it focuses inwards instead of on the total contribution to party. Often declined from harder content and even easier content unless played by top notch players where anything they played would be accepted.

[Vouivre]

As somewhat of a battle cleric I take offense. I join groups expecting to be the healer only. If I get into the group and there is another healer I specifically ask if I am healing or they are. If I am not then I switch it up and melee. I also backup heal, and heal myself.

I think the problem is more about what has been stated already. Horrible, pathetic, lazy, and stupid players who don't take responsibility for themselves and expect someone to hold their hand throughout the entire game. Carry healing and cure potions with you. Stop making the cleric responsible for keeping you up all the time. Clerics probably spend more money in groups than anyone else most of the time because other players want to tell them what they should be doing and yet have no clue how to really play in the first place.

If people aren't being complete wastes of flesh, I have no problem healing the entire group throughout an entire mission and/or raid. And yes I have actually been in raids where the other two healers didn't do anything and I had to heal the entire raid most of the time.

It shouldn't be about not making a battle cleric, and more about how if you play a cleric, expect everyone else to tell you what your job should be. Be prepared to heal unless you want to solo all the time, and be prepared to be blamed for everyone else's stupidity 24/7.

[TheBlueFox]

I was creating a ranger for the upcoming update, and got invited into a run of that harbor quest where you have to destroy Yaaryaar's schooner, I forget the name at the moment. Its a quest that involves a large open area, and lots of small skirmishes against a mix of melee and caster types that like to go invisible.

The group was
Ranger - me
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Cleric

they were all sort of new, I could tell in conversations with them. The Cleric was the last to join.

They pushed for Elite, I wasn't too worried though, with so many fighters and a healer to back us up, we had all we really needed.

However, running into the FIRST group of enemies down the hill and to the left, I noticed something odd.
*DING* Fighter 1 has died.
*DING* Fighter 3 has died.
and me at half health, giving myself a wand whipping back to full.

I took a glance at the Party list, and the Cleric had 3/4ths of his mana bar. he was currently running toward a retreating enemy, one of the bow bugbears, swinging his mace. I asked him why, and he replied "I'm a battle cleric".

I immediately recalled and broke party.

I have nothing against battle clerics, I know a good few of them who are better than healbots. But please, PLEASE...If you are going to make a battle cleric, Dont be Free To Play, Inform people you are one, and KNOW what you are doing beforehand.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I agree with the original poster in most aspects. Except for the fact that the idea of battle clerics is more complex than he represents. Some aspects of this have come out in the discussion in this thread. We have been discussing battle clerics and the progression of player expertise in another thread you might find interesting. Look at the last two pages.

The Path to Enlightenment

Basically, it comes down to confusing a cleric based build built for fighting (option 1) with a cleric that can also fight (option 2). A cleric based build built for fighting can be played with a little skill, but cannot keep a party up when they are needing serious healing. A cleric that also fights requires much more skill and can keep a party up. Confusion arises on both sides between these two. You have players that build option 1 thinking they can heal. You have players building option 2 that think they have the skill to play it when they don't. You have groups thinking option 1 builds can keep a group up and expecting this, when the toon is not built that way. Communication can resolve some of this, but nothing can help when the players involved on both sides just don't understand the limitations of the toon or player involved.

[biggin]

I agree with the original poster in most aspects. Except for the fact that the idea of battle clerics is more complex than he represents. Some aspects of this have come out in the discussion in this thread. We have been discussing battle clerics and the progression of player expertise in another thread you might find interesting. Look at the last two pages.

The Path to Enlightenment

Basically, it comes down to confusing a cleric based build built for fighting (option 1) with a cleric that can also fight (option 2). A cleric based build built for fighting can be played with a little skill, but cannot keep a party up when they are needing serious healing. A cleric that also fights requires much more skill and can keep a party up. Confusion arises on both sides between these two. You have players that build option 1 thinking they can heal. You have players building option 2 that think they have the skill to play it when they don't. You have groups thinking option 1 builds can keep a group up and expecting this, when the toon is not built that way. Communication can resolve some of this, but nothing can help when the players involved on both sides just don't understand the limitations of the toon or player involved.

You are right, along with a few other replies I've seen. What I was trying to convey to new players is that they need to stay away from the 18 STR melee BC. I never said clerics couldn't be effective support melees. It's actually quite the opposite. At mid levels with Greater Command you can run through Gianthold with a +1 vicious dagger if you want. Clerics make great support melee with paralyzers, vorpals, smiters, etc. And at upper levels its usually a toss up between a cleric/fvs or a sorc/wiz who will have the highest kill count in most quests. The reason I left it vague in my OP was that I was trying to shy the new players away from the "fighters with spells" theory. I would think that most people new to the game would think a BC is focused melee.

And to the person who said I am doing a disservice to the new players and that his battle cleric can solo heal raids. Either a) you drink 20 pots per raid or b) you didn't make a BC. And Tempest Spine doesn't count. If you've solo healed every raid in the game but TOD (where lag can rip a raid down in 3 seconds) then I apologize.

[Corstaad]

Since this game has collision detection its extremely easy to tell when someone is about to take damage. Even enemy casters will turn and get a straight LOS to a target. This game allows for flexability of classing outside of traditional mmorg roles. I'd much rather have a battlecleric that can heal then a Healer thats standing back doing nothing tell Boss fights.

[Vouivre]

And to the person who said I am doing a disservice to the new players and that his battle cleric can solo heal raids. Either a) you drink 20 pots per raid or b) you didn't make a BC. And Tempest Spine doesn't count. If you've solo healed every raid in the game but TOD (where lag can rip a raid down in 3 seconds) then I apologize.

I think you are confusing two posts, not one. I said I have been on raids as a main healer, but not all raids. It most certainly doable regardless what you think you know. I think the true disservice being done is players assuming that because someone is more than a pure cleric they aren't capable of healing and I laugh at them all the time when their healer gets them killed because they suck, and those who assume every cleric is a healer. I guess we should not allow rogues to be anything but trap monkeys, rangers be ranged fighters, and Paladins only be tanks.

[Uskathoth]

I'm a new player and at first I didn't understand what the OP meant by "battle cleric" either. Reading further I get the idea it's a high-strength cleric who takes feats, enhancements, etc that buff his melee ability specifically (instead of taking things that buff a more generalized role). I get that, but here's my question:

If I am playing on full teams in which everyone on the team is my level and we are doing quests that are my level on "Normal", is a battle cleric without elite equipment worthless? Or more broadly is the 10+ game so difficult that less-than-optimal builds are unplayable across the board?

Basically I see a lot of posts that suggest that you have to have a super-tricked out, very exact build in order to be worthwhile and I am not sure if this means "worthwhile to run the most difficult content on elite" or " worthwhile in order to do anything, including 'Normal' missions".

[Battleworm]

I've never once been impressed by a battle cleric build in 3+ years.

[biggin]

I think you are confusing two posts, not one. I said I have been on raids as a main healer, but not all raids. It most certainly doable regardless what you think you know. I think the true disservice being done is players assuming that because someone is more than a pure cleric they aren't capable of healing and I laugh at them all the time when their healer gets them killed because they suck, and those who assume every cleric is a healer..

I don't think I know. I do know. After more than 3 years of running nothing but clerics I know for a fact. It's a numbers game. There is no way possible for you to solo heal high end raids as a battle cleric because you don't have the spell pool. Other than on the few runs where I am with Legion, Bane, Pestilence, etc (none of which I am a part of) will I have SP left, sometimes even having to click my bauble for that little extra.

Your awesome BC was not the topic of this post. The topic was that new players should stay away from 28 pt BC builds.

I guess we should not allow rogues to be anything but trap monkeys, rangers be ranged fighters, and Paladins only be tanks.

Not even going to reply to the obvious baiting.

[Vouivre]

Not even going to reply to the obvious baiting.

It's not baiting, what you are doing is telling new players that a battle cleric is a mistake. A battle cleric can be quite a good build, but with people's perception on what a cleric should be, they often don't fill that role. It is a valid type of build, no more or less valid than a rogue that isn't a trap monkey, or a paladin that isn't a tank. The problem is people assuming that if you're a cleric you are a healer, and their perception of how much the cleric is actually supposed to be doing.

[biggin]

I'm a new player and at first I didn't understand what the OP meant by "battle cleric" either. Reading further I get the idea it's a high-strength cleric who takes feats, enhancements, etc that buff his melee ability specifically (instead of taking things that buff a more generalized role). I get that, but here's my question:

If I am playing on full teams in which everyone on the team is my level and we are doing quests that are my level on "Normal", is a battle cleric without elite equipment worthless? Or more broadly is the 10+ game so difficult that less-than-optimal builds are unplayable across the board?

Basically I see a lot of posts that suggest that you have to have a super-tricked out, very exact build in order to be worthwhile and I am not sure if this means "worthwhile to run the most difficult content on elite" or " worthwhile in order to do anything, including 'Normal' missions".

That's a very good point. You can easily play a BC at level with a full group. It would be very fun to play as a matter of fact. But here's the catch. You can play a cleric at level with a full group and almost do the same thing without the drawbacks. If you roll a BC, go full melee feats, high STR, etc, you have just put yourself into a role you can't get out of. It will be hard to find groups. You will be kicked without explanation from a lot of groups as soon as you explain your build(and you will have to explain), or won't be invited in the first place.

On the other hand........
If you go high WIS/CON cleric. At lower levels the difference in the classes is very small other than slight variations in HP, small to hit/damage bonus, almost negligible. After a few levels the difference becomes more apparent, but now you have access to paralyzers, vorpals, etc. A vorpal is an insta-kill on a 20, and it doesn't matter who's swinging. You can easily help with melee while still being a very effective cleric. And the up side, almost every group wants a good cleric.

This wasn't about if a BC can be effective. This was about very new players and character choices. The BC is a very poor fit for people who don't have a good working knowledge of this game. If you want to make a melee that self heals, make a ranger, pali, or anything else that is melee focused and can heal itself.

[Vouivre]

This wasn't about if a BC can be effective. This was about very new players and character choices. The BC is a very poor fit for people who don't have a good working knowledge of this game. If you want to make a melee that self heals, make a ranger, pali, or anything else that is melee focused and can heal itself.

What in your opinion is the difference between playing a ranger or paladin rather than a BC other than other people's opinions on what clerics should be?

[biggin]

A battle cleric can be quite a good build, but with people's perception on what a cleric should be, they often don't fill that role. It is a valid type of build, no more or less valid than a rogue that isn't a trap monkey, or a paladin that isn't a tank. The problem is people assuming that if you're a cleric you are a healer, and their perception of how much the cleric is actually supposed to be doing.

And herein lies the problem. I don't know if you are new from your join date or just let your account go f2p, but you're arguing my point for me and it's hard to argue back. I never said BC's weren't valid builds. They aren't good builds for people who only have 28 pt builds and who don't know the game well. Can a rogue be more than a trap monkey? Of course they can, they have some of the best DPS in game and can vorpal at will at higher levels. But what happens when someone puts up a LFM for rogue, last spot open in party? Most of us know it's because they need someone to disable traps. But someone new to the game might not know that and get a bit frustrated when he starts getting yelled at because he can't disable a trap on Normal at level.

And you are right, the perception is a cleric is a healer. That's the point. BC's are hard to find groups for outside of friends and guilds. Period. Nowhere in my post did I say to never play a BC. I said it was a poor choice for a first run at this game. There are going to be some people who come to DDO with RL friends or people they knew from other games. They might play together regularly and a BC may fit a role they need, like a rogue splashed wiz who can help pop some traps. But most come to DDO without really knowing anyone and I don't want them to see "Battle Cleric" and invest time into something that isn't widely accepted and hard to play.

[ddaedelus]

What precisely is a battle cleric?

I have seen people call a cleric that uses a melee weapon a battle cleric, even if they healed the party and kept people up.
I have seen offensive caster clerics be called battle clerics.
I have seen cleric x/fighter x be called battle clerics, regardless of their healing capacity.
I have seen people call a cleric that never healed for a battle cleric.

At this point I am not sure what a battle cleric is.

If I go into a party as a healer and I keep people up by healing them and buff them, does it really matter if I also use a weapon or a spell to cc or kill things?

I still haven't found a good definition of a battle cleric, because I have heard so many versions of what it is.

I am honestly confused by this. If someone can help me out, I would be grateful

If this post is meant to help new players, I suggest the OP describes a battle cleric in his OP, simply because of the many weird definitions of this creature.
If you want new players to avoid making a battle cleric, please explain what it is, so they know what it is they should avoid.

Simple. A battle cleric is a cleric that doesn't play the game the way you want them to.