Please don't make a battle cleric

[biggin]

Before I get neg rep'd off the board, let me explain. I've seen a big influx of new players wanting to make battle clerics. Rather than responding to the same questions over and over I'd like to just summarize a few things to hopefully head off this obsession.

Many people who start playing this come from a PnP background, whether from when we were kids or adults. It seems that many are thinking of a cleric who swipes this huge mace around and smashes everything in sight. The simple fact is it doesn't work that way in this game. Good battle cleric builds are easy to find on here, but they have to be geared AND played correctly. This is a build that when pulled off is very lethal, but more often than not ends in disaster. I honestly believe that if Turbine forced everyone to play the battle cleric experiment they had, you would see 20 LFM's with a single battle cleric in each one because most wouldn't take a battle cleric they didn't know into a PUG.

That's the 2nd point. Most people who have made successful BC's had either alot of experience and/or big guilds to run them with. I can honestly say that if I was forming a PUG and I didn't know them or their guild I wouldn't take them unless it was for a slot filler. Not to say that you will always be confined to guild runs only, but as a new player it will be a very hard struggle to be accepted as anything more than a healer/offensive caster.

I know its tempting. Many have the mindset, "Hey, if I can heal and fight, I won't have to worry about grouping as much." At the lower levels you may get away with it for a time, but as the DPS gap starts growing (and it will), it's going to almost force you to retire your character because you won't find groups.

Many of you have seen how hard this game can be. I've read tons of stuff about how hard it is to find a group. My advice: pick one thing to start and learn to be good at it. Learn the game. If you don't like it, switch to something else. But for your sake, and the sake of everyone else, don't try to play a build that takes a lot of funding and knowledge to pull off correctly. It's lonely standing in the harbor by yourself all night.

[malicia]

Before I get neg rep'd off the board, let me explain. I've seen a big influx of new players wanting to make battle clerics. Rather than responding to the same questions over and over I'd like to just summarize a few things to hopefully head off this obsession.

Many people who start playing this come from a PnP background, whether from when we were kids or adults. It seems that many are thinking of a cleric who swipes this huge mace around and smashes everything in sight. The simple fact is it doesn't work that way in this game. Good battle cleric builds are easy to find on here, but they have to be geared AND played correctly. This is a build that when pulled off is very lethal, but more often than not ends in disaster. I honestly believe that if Turbine forced everyone to play the battle cleric experiment they had, you would see 20 LFM's with a single battle cleric in each one because most wouldn't take a battle cleric they didn't know into a PUG.

That's the 2nd point. Most people who have made successful BC's had either alot of experience and/or big guilds to run them with. I can honestly say that if I was forming a PUG and I didn't know them or their guild I wouldn't take them unless it was for a slot filler. Not to say that you will always be confined to guild runs only, but as a new player it will be a very hard struggle to be accepted as anything more than a healer/offensive caster.

I know its tempting. Many have the mindset, "Hey, if I can heal and fight, I won't have to worry about grouping as much." At the lower levels you may get away with it for a time, but as the DPS gap starts growing (and it will), it's going to almost force you to retire your character because you won't find groups.

Many of you have seen how hard this game can be. I've read tons of stuff about how hard it is to find a group. My advice: pick one thing to start and learn to be good at it. Learn the game. If you don't like it, switch to something else. But for your sake, and the sake of everyone else, don't try to play a build that takes a lot of funding and knowledge to pull off correctly. It's lonely standing in the harbor by yourself all night.

Dont know how you could get neg repped for this, seems a well thought out warning/reminder that you wont automatically smash faces just because you can heal yourself and carry a big hammer.

[Kriogen]

Ah, another of "those" threads :/

Clerics are overrated.

I just make chars that are so **** uber they don't need a cleric. My WF wizzy allways has an extra inventory slot for BCs soul stone

[Elealar]

Shouldn't you just say "If you're making a Battle Cleric, prepare to do a LOT of item grinding"? 'cause that's really the truth of it. Battle Cleric works. It's an excellent archetype. It just requires a lot of work. But then again, so does everything since more than class, this game is really about your gear. Battle Cleric just needs certain pieces more and needs more gear overall.

Mechanical playing is something you learn by doing it. You can hardly become a competent player until you start playing it. So it shouldn't be an obstacle to making one; as long as you listen to people who you play with, you'll get there.


But yeah, it's true Battle Cleric DPS doesn't match a FB's DPS. Still, it can be decent enough to contribute significantly, and when combined with the offensive casting that comes naturally (Blade Barrier, for one), the composite damage is actually quite impressive.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The problem is two fold.

Battle clerics who don't do what the party needs them to do.

And players who can't do a quest without a babysitter.

I expect (desire) every player to take responsibility for his own survival.

And I expect every player to do whatever is in their power to help a teammate in trouble.


(note: the guy who is saving your butt by purposely taking agro, will do a much better job if you make keeping him alive your priority. In some cases it's the guy casting the Blade Barriers.)

[Aranticus]

the more important thing is if a BC wants to melee, do not join the lfm looking for a healer

[Xithos]

Can I at least make a MeleeSoul? Battlesoul?

[Clay]

The problem is two fold.

Battle clerics who don't do what the party needs them to do.

And players who can't do a quest without a babysitter.

I expect (desire) every player to take responsibility for his own survival.

And I expect every player to do whatever is in their power to help a teammate in trouble.


(note: the guy who is saving your butt by purposely taking agro, will do a much better job if you make keeping him alive your priority. In some cases it's the guy casting the Blade Barriers.)

good post. I agree completely. +1
Since almost every quest in the game has been completed without a healer, I would rather an offensive cleric in my group than a sit back and only watch health bars.

Cleric offensive and cc spells can be very powerful. I would rather clean up a roomful of blinded/stunned/halfhealth mobs b/c of a bad ass blade barrier, smite or symbol.

And Aranticus' point is also true. Even if you want to play melee, if you join an lfm asking for a healer and you go all out BC mode... you are a selfish behind.

[ace_mason]

Can I make a cleric and melee portals?

[Atenhotep]

the more important thing is if a BC wants to melee, do not join the lfm looking for a healer

Because a battle cleric can't heal and fight? huh?

No, the issue comes back to bad players.

The "Healbot" is the offspring of lousy, lazy, incompetent players who need a mom.

A cleric isn't your mom.

Many ppl who play clerics have been pigeonholed and backed in to a corner forcing them to think they must be healbots because for the most part it's all the other ppl who really suck - jeesh .. doing a ToD run and you'd think 18th - 20th lvl toons would know how and where to buy remove curse pots before they join .. but no .. they expect "mom" to do it all for them.

[weyoun]

Oh jebus, another bc post. I agree with the OP. But if a cleric/fvs is killing 80% of the mobs with bb/implosion don't expect too many heals, even if the party wanted a healing cleric/fvs. Just try to keep up. Raids are different of course . . . especially shroud 4/5.

cheers

[Battleworm]

Oh jebus, another bc post. I agree with the OP. But if a cleric/fvs is killing 80% of the mobs with bb/implosion don't expect too many heals, even if the party wanted a healing cleric/fvs. Just try to keep up. Raids are different of course . . . especially shroud 4/5.

cheers

Gee what kind of selfish cleric would do that? : >

[Dandonk]

I've made several battlecleric/fvs builds during my time in DDO, and I must say I agree. I made the same mistake very early: Making a cleric that could smash the enemy's face in. It worked well... until level 8 or so. At that point, I started being useless as melee, and not very good at healing.
It -can- work well. I've made a fvs that melees decently. BUT he always heals when grouping unless the group specifically requests otherwise. And he can heal very well, too.

So, very good point OP. A BC is not a beginner build, it should be approached with caution and planning. And an understading that though you might feel like killing stuff, the group might need you to do something else. And the group comes first.

[Krag]

*gulp* My barb is self-sufficient *gulp* he haz 9999hp and even more pots. You just wait till I heal myself
*gulp* *gulp* *gulp*

[biggin]

This wasn't a post about how BC's suck. This was a post to warn off new players from trying a BC as a first toon. If you've been playing this game for any amount of time you can't honestly tell me you feel that a 28-point BC played by someone brand new to the game will be very effective. It's not a slam to the new players, I just don't think that until you get the hang of what's going on with the UI, DDO's unique rule sets, etc, that it's a toon that can be played effectively. On top of that, with all the bad pugs going on lately, how well do you see a BC being taken? The only reason many would take them is 1) filling a slot, 2) brand name guild tag.

This wasn't directed towards the vets. Most of us have guilds to run with or most recognize our name enough to know what type of player we are. All I've run on Thelanis is clerics for 3+ years (well, and a fvs now). And even still I may have trouble finding a group even knowing the cleric class as well as I do.

[arminius]

Some of the commenters are confusing battle cleric with offensive casting cleric. They are quite different, n'est ce pas? Offensive casters who also heal are prized, I thought it was clerics who try to melee that were so shunned.

Overall I agree, but here's another way to look at it.

Going X/1 Cleric/Fighter or Cleric/Paladin makes a very good character that can easily solo and short man a lot till about level 12-14. After level 14, the opportunities to productively walk up and smack things drop precipitously (vorpals, disruptors, etc notwithstanding).

Solution to satiating your need to get your heavy mace on while still having a good end game character:

Lesser or Greater Reincarnation +1. Melee to your heart's content until that well runs dry at 12-14, then spend some TP and remove your multiclass, and go offensive caster/healer from there. I intend to do this with my 13/1 Clr/Pal, and expect to motor on happily therefrom.

_

[Impaqt]

Before I get neg rep'd off the board, let me explain. I've seen a big influx of new players wanting to make battle clerics. Rather than responding to the same questions over and over I'd like to just summarize a few things to hopefully head off this obsession.

Many people who start playing this come from a PnP background, whether from when we were kids or adults. It seems that many are thinking of a cleric who swipes this huge mace around and smashes everything in sight. The simple fact is it doesn't work that way in this game. Good battle cleric builds are easy to find on here, but they have to be geared AND played correctly. This is a build that when pulled off is very lethal, but more often than not ends in disaster. I honestly believe that if Turbine forced everyone to play the battle cleric experiment they had, you would see 20 LFM's with a single battle cleric in each one because most wouldn't take a battle cleric they didn't know into a PUG.

That's the 2nd point. Most people who have made successful BC's had either alot of experience and/or big guilds to run them with. I can honestly say that if I was forming a PUG and I didn't know them or their guild I wouldn't take them unless it was for a slot filler. Not to say that you will always be confined to guild runs only, but as a new player it will be a very hard struggle to be accepted as anything more than a healer/offensive caster.

I know its tempting. Many have the mindset, "Hey, if I can heal and fight, I won't have to worry about grouping as much." At the lower levels you may get away with it for a time, but as the DPS gap starts growing (and it will), it's going to almost force you to retire your character because you won't find groups.

Many of you have seen how hard this game can be. I've read tons of stuff about how hard it is to find a group. My advice: pick one thing to start and learn to be good at it. Learn the game. If you don't like it, switch to something else. But for your sake, and the sake of everyone else, don't try to play a build that takes a lot of funding and knowledge to pull off correctly. It's lonely standing in the harbor by yourself all night.

Interesting argument. But about 6 months too late.

The game really is NOT that hard if you dont want it to be. and its only getting easier with Update 3 and "Casual" Mode.

WHile there are lots of "Bad-le" Clerics out there, there is also a lot of really good players who do just fine as a cleric who heal and fight.

It all comes back around to playign the game how you want to play it. If you get stuck with a bad-le Cleric in your group, feel free to add them to you list and move on. They will eventully "Get it" and adapt or they wont and they will leave the game. Its not up to us to tell people how they should play the game.

[Impaqt]

the more important thing is if a BC wants to melee, do not join the lfm looking for a healer

This is the biggest problem I see. Too many newer players for some reason dont understand this concept. 4 melees and a caster in the group with the LFM up for a Cleric or FvS and they hit the join button but then do not heal anyone.. Sometimes not even themselves.... Bad form.

[gwlech]

A well-played battle cleric can solo very well at any level. A well-played battle cleric can also heal very well, and even lead the kill count in some groups as well. The key words here are "well played" this also involves knowledge of the right gear/spells/tactics to pull off.

A battle cleric can solo just as well as a sorcerer/wizard imo and its situational depending on the content being run. Level up points into str? sorry thats a bad idea. No potency/spell point items? sorry another really bad idea. (these are both 2 of the main things that I see battle clerics running around without)

For a brand new player trying the game out, a battle cleric is a very cheap and easy straightforward build. They may have a more forgiving time, but do no expect a newbie battle cleric to be a very effective healer or killer (aka player) this all takes experience, and a willingness to learn, just as any build would.

A good battle cleric would imo focus on melee early on, while later shifting to more of an offensive caster with melee as backup. Wisdom SHOULD NOT be neglected, and neither should the ability to heal and any applicable enhancements/items that will augment that.

This doesn't stop at just battle clerics. ANY well played and built build does not need a healer for almost all content in the game. Battle clerics make good scapegoats though, as they are seen as a healer, and accordingly, expected to be everyone's devoted wetnurse.

Furthermore, people don't usually tell these new players who make battle clerics how and what is expected of them in groups, it is just assumed that its already there.

[Lilliana]

What precisely is a battle cleric?

I have seen people call a cleric that uses a melee weapon a battle cleric, even if they healed the party and kept people up.
I have seen offensive caster clerics be called battle clerics.
I have seen cleric x/fighter x be called battle clerics, regardless of their healing capacity.
I have seen people call a cleric that never healed for a battle cleric.

At this point I am not sure what a battle cleric is.

If I go into a party as a healer and I keep people up by healing them and buff them, does it really matter if I also use a weapon or a spell to cc or kill things?

I still haven't found a good definition of a battle cleric, because I have heard so many versions of what it is.

I am honestly confused by this. If someone can help me out, I would be grateful

If this post is meant to help new players, I suggest the OP describes a battle cleric in his OP, simply because of the many weird definitions of this creature.
If you want new players to avoid making a battle cleric, please explain what it is, so they know what it is they should avoid.