Spell penetration at 20th lvl question

[joneb1999]

Does having this bonus from feats and enhancements allow you to casts spells as if higher than level 20 or is spell penetration useless when you get to level 20?

[Sirea]

I don't really understand the first part of your question (are you assuming Spell Pen works the same way as Heighten?), but I can say that Spell Pen is still highly useful at level 20.

To expand on how spell pen works, spell pen has to do with that blue "shield" that you've probably seen sometimes when you try to cast a spell on a monster. If you're seeing that shield then you're not breaking the mob's spell pen. What the spell pen feats and enhancements do is increase the likelihood that you'll get past that blue shield. The monster still (most of the time) gets a save to see whether your spell lands, that save boils down to your DC, aka the value of your main casting stat combined with things like spell focus feats and gear (and the Heighten metamagic).

[TheDjinnFor]

Does having this bonus from feats and enhancements allow you to casts spells as if higher than level 20 or is spell penetration useless when you get to level 20?

I don't entirely understand what you mean by casting spells as though they're higher than level twenty. My best guess would be that you're confusing a caster level check with the caster level of a spell.

Let me explain: the caster level of a spell determines to some degree what a spells effects are. Many spells increase in damage based on the casters level (examples: "this spell does 1d8 damage per two caster levels, to a maximum of 5d8, or 1d6 damage per caster level to undead, up to a maximum of 10d6", or "this spell cures 3d8 damage +1 per caster level, up to a maximum of +15"). Other spells have extended durations (usually 1 minute per caster level). These effects, of course, aren't random in any way, but plot a linear increase (from 1d8+1 to 1d8+2, or from 1 minute to two minutes). I'm sure you're all aware of these effects by now and no more explanations are necessary.

On the other hand, there's whats known as a caster level check. A caster level check is a d20 roll (which means a bonus is randomized from +1 to 20) to which the casters level is added. A fifth level caster making a caster level check would result in a number between 6 and 25, for example. A caster level check is used for a couple things, one of which is spell resistance, which represents a number (typically between 12 and 20 for trash mobs, if any) that must be beaten by a caster level check (1d20 + caster level), before a spell can affect a target (this is a somewhat uncommon ability that not all monsters have); so when you take the feat/enhancement that increases a casters effective caster level check for the purposes of spell resistance, you are increasing that number by a specific amount.

It won't affect your actual caster level for the purposes of health, feats, enhancements, spells, or anything else, just that specific instance where you use your level for making a roll. It also won't affect the caster level check used for dispel magic and related spells (another time where you make a caster level check, where you must roll 11 + a spells level to remove it), because, of course, the feat/enhancement is for overcoming spell resistance, not using dispel magic.

I hope that clarifies things, but if it doesn't, can you be more specific?

[joneb1999]

the description for spell penetration is +n to your caster level when trying to defeat an enemies spell resistance though the enhancement improved spell resistance just says +n to your level but what you guys advised is the answer Im looking for I believe? Thanks

[ZeroTakenaka]

I don't entirely understand what you mean by casting spells as though they're higher than level twenty. My best guess would be that you're confusing a caster level check with the caster level of a spell.

Let me explain: the caster level of a spell determines to some degree what a spells effects are. Many spells increase in damage based on the casters level (examples: "this spell does 1d8 damage per two caster levels, to a maximum of 5d8, or 1d6 damage per caster level to undead, up to a maximum of 10d6", or "this spell cures 3d8 damage +1 per caster level, up to a maximum of +15"). Other spells have extended durations (usually 1 minute per caster level). These effects, of course, aren't random in any way, but plot a linear increase (from 1d8+1 to 1d8+2, or from 1 minute to two minutes). I'm sure you're all aware of these effects by now and no more explanations are necessary.

On the other hand, there's whats known as a caster level check. A caster level check is a d20 roll (which means a bonus is randomized from +1 to 20) to which the casters level is added. A fifth level caster making a caster level check would result in a number between 6 and 25, for example. A caster level check is used for a couple things, one of which is spell resistance, which represents a number (typically between 12 and 20, if any) that must be beaten by a caster level check (1d20 + caster level), before a spell can affect a target (this is a somewhat uncommon ability that not all monsters have); so when you take the feat/enhancement that increases a casters effective caster level check for the purposes of spell resistance, you are increasing that number by a specific amount.

It won't affect your actual caster level for the purposes of health, feats, enhancements, spells, or anything else, just that specific instance where you use your level for making a roll. It also won't affect the caster level check used for dispel magic and related spells (another time where you make a caster level check, where you must roll 11 + a spells level to remove it), because, of course, the feat/enhancement is for overcoming spell resistance, not using dispel magic.

I hope that clarifies things, but if it doesn't, can you be more specific?

Spell penetration is not caster lvl.

Spell penetration is a check that most high lvl monsters gain due to certain effects that stop certain spells from affecting them.

I think Spell Pen is useful at lvl 20... I'm lvl 19 and I'm finding it highly useful. I hear there's a monster or two with a spell penetration of 35. Maybe it's on epic. I don't know. I do know I'm a wizard and I took some spell penetration feats to help me at least have a 70% penetration rate.

[Rusty_Can]

I think I have understood your question: yes, Spell Penetration features, enhancements and items are useful also when you hit lvl 20.

In order to overcome mobs' Spell Resistance, the Spell Penetration of a lvl 20 pure caster could be:
+ 20 from caster level
+ 4 from features (Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)
+ 3 from enhancements;
+ 3 from items (Greater Spell Penetration VIII is surely in game, Spell Penetration IX too, not sure about Greater Spell Penetration IX)
= 30 + 1d20

Remember that, especially against red/purple named bosses, party can help you hitting mobs with weapons of Shattermantle (-3 to SR) and Improved Shattermantle (-6 to SR).

[joneb1999]

thx

[TheDjinnFor]

Edit: Nevermind.