Drow Cleric/Monk?

[Naechtweard]

So...this is a speculative build, one for which I'm obviously seeking feedback. A few caveats as folks get the cutting torches warmed up:

Build goals: survivable healing and fun, ability to get through the low-mid levels without being completely reliant on others for damage...also, no being super-dependent on high-end gear/tomes for functionality.

This build purposefully sacrifices much (read:any) focus on offensive casting enhancements to focus on buffing and healing. I'm also not looking for a "killer" endgame build. I'm not concerned at this point with main-healing elite raids, or imploding devils, or the like.

I'm looking particularly for feedback on starting stats and feats...I've not really played a cleric thus far, though I've dug through the first few pages of the class forum. Please wave the red flags at anything you think merits them.


EDIT: Several of the waved flags taken into account below, particularly feat selection and level progression.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(3 Monk \ 17 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 247
Spell Points: 1212 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 13
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               16                    24
Charisma             10                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    19
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         5                    25
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     0
Heal                  3                     8
Hide                  3                     5
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  6                     9
Listen                3                     9
Move Silently         3                     5
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                  6                    13
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                4                     6
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Philosophy - Path of Harmonious Balance


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing III
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Fists of Light
Enhancement: Void Strike
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Disciple of Candles
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality III

[zooble]

Build goals: survivable healing and fun, ability to get through the low-mid levels without being completely reliant on others for damage...also, no being super-dependent on high-end gear/tomes for functionality.

pretty much any decent 16+ cleric satisfies the above

I'm looking particularly for feedback on starting stats and feats...I've not really played a cleric thus far, though I've dug through the first few pages of the class forum. Please wave the red flags at anything you think merits them.

to focus on buffing and healing.

all you need to focus on buffing is a high cleric level and extend spell... which you have

your feat selection makes me believe that you want to melee more than you want to heal.

either way weapon focus slashing could be replaced. personally i'd replace it with greater 2 weapon fighting/power attack for more melee power or maximise for more healing(mass cures)/offensive spell power.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm looking particularly for feedback on starting stats and feats...I've not really played a cleric thus far, though I've dug through the first few pages of the class forum. Please wave the red flags at anything you think merits them.

1. Drow is a poor match for both the Monk and Cleric classes. Drow get a bonus to intelligence and charisma, which are the stats that monks and clerics don't need. The typically recommended monk race is Halfling.
2. Only Fighters (or Warchanters) should take Weapon Focus.
3. If you're interested in melee combat, you should get Power Attack.
4. If you take any TWF feats, you should try to get all the way to GTWF.
5. If you have 3 levels of Monk then you should be using centered weapons, and handwraps are a better choice than kama, which means Bludgeon feats instead of Slashing.
5b. Users of centered weapons can consider skipping Improved Crit.
6. Consider not using Weapon Finesse and raising Strength instead of Dexterity. This would save a feat, increase, damage, and reduce AC. But if you don't plan on raiding a lot, then AC will suffer anyhow.

[Calebro]

Please wave the red flags at anything you think merits them.

Taking a third monk level at level 20 is next to pointless. At that point you'll want the cleric level for the spells. If, however, you're dead set on that last monk level for more melee ability, you'll want to take levels 2 and 3 much earlier.
The entire point of taking that third monk level would be for the Fists of Light ability, which will be MUCH more useful at low levels that at high.

I wouldn't say that I recommend taking that 3rd level of monk at all, but if you're set on it, you should change your progression to the following:
1) monk1
2) monk2
3) cleric1
4) monk3
5) cleric2-17

That would give you Fists of Light early.
Use that ability often, and I mean OFTEN, to make up for the fact that you're lagging on your healing levels, and the difference in your healing capabilities will be noticed a lot less.
Simply put: You'll be healing everyone in melee a little bit at a time, therefore you'll need to spend a little less mana healing them and they won't notice as much.

This is a workable solution provided you remember to NEVER attack FIRST and get yourself killed. Let the Tanks hit the mobs and grab aggro before you and you'll have a much easier time keeping everyone (including yourself) alive.

[Angelus_dead]

The entire point of taking that third monk level would be for the Fists of Light ability, which will be MUCH more useful at low levels that at high.

The main benefit of Monk3 is Aligning the Heavens, which is very useful in top-level quests. But yes, he should want to get it earlier.

[Calebro]

The main benefit of Monk3 is Aligning the Heavens, which is very useful in top-level quests. But yes, he should want to get it earlier.

Yes, obviously Aligning the Heavens helps save SP, but I was speaking in regards to his lowered healing ability and the boost this would (appear to) give it.

[Jacoby]

On paper this looks nice but in game it may be difficult to pull off until you master the play style. This game is awful about pigeon holing Clerics into the "heal only" mode. What they don't understand is most "good" groups rarely need any healing at all.

[Naechtweard]

1. Drow is a poor match for both the Monk and Cleric classes. Drow get a bonus to intelligence and charisma, which are the stats that monks and clerics don't need. The typically recommended monk race is Halfling.

While I'd make a case for human as balanced monks, halflings definitely take the "wis/dex monk" cake. I knew the race was an odd/nonoptimal choice going in, and was more or less balancing the dex and "extra" skill point against the not-capitalized-on in this build charisma and con penalty.

That said, would you mind suggesting a starting stat layout for a 17/3 as a halfling or human?

2. Only Fighters (or Warchanters) should take Weapon Focus.
3. If you're interested in melee combat, you should get Power Attack.

My thinking on this (and it was late-at-night thinking) was that I'd be having a hard time hitting things anyway. I'm happy to chuck WF out the window. These are good points.

4. If you take any TWF feats, you should try to get all the way to GTWF.

Absolutely true, and a byproduct of entering the feats into the charbuilder very haphazardly.

5. If you have 3 levels of Monk then you should be using centered weapons, and handwraps are a better choice than kama, which means Bludgeon feats instead of Slashing.
5b. Users of centered weapons can consider skipping Improved Crit.
6. Consider not using Weapon Finesse and raising Strength instead of Dexterity. This would save a feat, increase, damage, and reduce AC. But if you don't plan on raiding a lot, then AC will suffer anyhow.

Switching to halfling would make the strength disparity greater and finesse a more obvious choice.

I was also, in my late-at-night thinking, in the wrong about kamas v. base monk wrap/fist damage. At low monk levels, the (base) damage is more or less a wash, and any related feats would probably get swapped depending on what dropped for me.

Thanks for the continuing feedback! I'm trying to make my reasoning clear so you folks can critique it--more important that I figure out how I'm wrong than simply that I'm wrong.

And Calebro--totally right about the placement of the last monk level. I would, as you suggest, probably try and get all the monk levels in before getting completely out of the Harbor.

Suggestions now taken into account in the original post.

[Angelus_dead]

I was also, in my late-at-night thinking, in the wrong about kamas v. base monk wrap/fist damage. At low monk levels, the damage is more or less a wash

At low levels the kama is noticeably inferior, and it just gets worse and worse as a monk advances. The only reason to use a kama is when you need things like slashing, silver, greensteel, or vorpal. (Or if you have a nice Dream Edge)

[Angelus_dead]

That said, would you mind suggesting a starting stat layout for a 17/3 as a halfling or human?

That's too much work for me! All I'll say is to be sure you can reach the 17 dex requirement for GTWF, which probably means starting with 15 dex and planning to use the 1750 favor tome on it. If you intended to raid a lot, you could instead stay down at 14 dex. (Obviously a finesse character would put level ups into dex and reach the requirement without trying). The importance of qualifying for GTWF is one of the reasons Halflings are recommended.

Aside from that, you can split between str, wis, and con as you like.

[Calebro]

If you wanted to focus more on your cleric levels, but still wanted to get that 3rd monk level in, the latest I'd wait for 2 & 3 is around 10-14.

1. m1.....OR.....m1
2. c1..............c1
3. c2..............c2
4. c3..............c3
5. c4..............c4
6. c5..............c5
7. c6.............. c6
8. c7..............c7
9. c8..............c8
10. m2..............m2
11. m3..............c9
12. c9..............c10
13. c10..............c11
14. c11..............m3

The first progression I showed in the prior post will give you more melee ability and will help your lesser healing abilities in the earlier levels.
The first one here will get you evasion when you'll need it most, and will get you Aligning the Heavens right about the time it will truly begin to shine.
The second one here will get you evasion when you'll begin to need it most, but waits to give you Aligning the Heavens until after you have Heal and BB.
All can be considered good choices depending on what you want.