Three quick Sorc questions

[DaoJones]

1. I don't see many people talk about a Sorc 18/Pally 2 splash build. To me, it seems like a really excellent way to massively buff your saves, score some free auras, up your HP slightly, and pick up a few other abilities. Granted, it costs you 1 level 8 and 2 level 9 spells, but it seems to me that it's a decent trade-off for significantly better survivability. Am I missing something?

2. Dex versus Con. Without rehashing the debate I've seen all over this forum, I just want to make sure I basically understand the end-game implication here. A level 20 Human Sorc with a base 16 Con will have 40 HP more a level 20 Drow Sorc (assuming base 12 Con). However, the Drow Sorc will have potentially a +3 better reflex save (assuming 16 base, +2 Drow Dex enhancement; the Human Sorc I'm assuming put both +stat enhancements into Cha to catch up to the Drow's base 20 Cha).

So the Dex vs. Con debate is essentially 40 HP versus +3 Reflex save, right? Because it looks like everything else is equal in this comparison.

Given that, then:

3. If I decided to roll a Sorc/Pally, would it make more sense to consider a higher Dex Drow? +3 Reflex becomes much more relevant when I'm buffing all of my saves with Divine Grace, doesn't it?

Thanks in advance!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

1) In addition to losing some of the most powerful spells in the game, you are also taking a -2 penalty on your spell pen checks.
2) Your math is fine, but as someone with that build, let me tell you as soon as LR comes out I will be fixing those starting stats because the save is worth far less than the HP at the mid and higher levels.
3) You'd have to do the math to see what your resulting save would be to know if it would be high enough to be useful or not.

[issiana]

1. I don't see many people talk about a Sorc 18/Pally 2 splash build. To me, it seems like a really excellent way to massively buff your saves, score some free auras, up your HP slightly, and pick up a few other abilities. Granted, it costs you 1 level 8 and 2 level 9 spells, but it seems to me that it's a decent trade-off for significantly better survivability. Am I missing something?

with the right gear and player skill this build works well as you can melee as well as buff and nuke (but good luck getting cc and nukes to land in anything above normal)


2. Dex versus Con. Without rehashing the debate I've seen all over this forum, I just want to make sure I basically understand the end-game implication here. A level 20 Human Sorc with a base 16 Con will have 40 HP more a level 20 Drow Sorc (assuming base 12 Con). However, the Drow Sorc will have potentially a +3 better reflex save (assuming 16 base, +2 Drow Dex enhancement; the Human Sorc I'm assuming put both +stat enhancements into Cha to catch up to the Drow's base 20 Cha).

So the Dex vs. Con debate is essentially 40 HP versus +3 Reflex save, right? Because it looks like everything else is equal in this comparison.

con is FAR more important than dex. sure as a sorc you can buff up to avoid most issues, aka stoneskin, displacement, resists and protections. but failing a reflex save just means a rebuff, but failing a reflex save and not having the hitpoints = you being raised.

Given that, then:

3. If I decided to roll a Sorc/Pally, would it make more sense to consider a higher Dex Drow? +3 Reflex becomes much more relevant when I'm buffing all of my saves with Divine Grace, doesn't it?

the issue you face is to be an effective sorc you want a 18 (if human) 20 (if drow) char to make you spells DC as high as possible. next is con as high as possible followed by dex, str,wis,int. maybe more int if you want to go umd path (which every sorc should)

Thanks in advance!

so in summary unless you totally know 100% what your doing in game, and have the gear to back it up the sorc/pally build isnt the most viable. if you want a good sorc it must stay pure to maximise the DC's of your spells. but if you just want to be a melee with buffs then a WF sorc/pally would be better with char as a dumpish stat using tomes and items to gain you the higher lvl spells.

ansewers in red

[Memnir]

1: I don't see the point in multiclassing a Sorc. These are one of the classes that is better to stay pure in, IMHO. The saves boost would not be worth the loss to spell casting.

2: Con hands down.

3: If you really wanted to go that route, and it sounds like you do, seems like a good idea. Either that or go Human and boost your Human Versatility enhancement for the Saves boost and an extra feat w/o a racial hit to Con. Granted, it won't be a static boost to your Reflex save - but then again you typically know when you'll need that reflex save.

[DaoJones]

Thanks for the speedy replies.

I'm definitely not married to the Sorc/Pally idea. Honestly, I just want to find an alt I like; my main is the character in my sig, and every time I make an alt (luckily I bought vet status and 32 pt builds) I keep saying "well, he's not as good as my main..."

My current focus is between a Favored Soul (party support via healing, off-nuker and no melee) and a Sorc (nuker with off support via wands and Sorc party-buffing spells). I wasn't intending to fight with the Pally; I just wanted the saves and the free aura. Plus, having low saves makes me nervous. However, not landing my CC/damage spells in the end game makes me more nervouser.

So I see the value in a pure Sorc build.

[Spiffyspiffy]

2. Dex versus Con. Without rehashing the debate I've seen all over this forum, I just want to make sure I basically understand the end-game implication here. A level 20 Human Sorc with a base 16 Con will have 40 HP more a level 20 Drow Sorc (assuming base 12 Con). However, the Drow Sorc will have potentially a +3 better reflex save (assuming 16 base, +2 Drow Dex enhancement;

All of the following assumes 32 point builds.
ASSuming a max cha and max con for the left over points for the race:

Naked, at level 20,
A drow has 14 con which is 140 hp (2 build points leftover)
A human has 18 con which is 180 hp
A WF has 22 con -with-racial-enhancement- which is 220 hp

They can all take the toughness feat, and it provides the same benefit.
If they take the toughness feat, they can all take two enhancement levels of toughness.
All WF, and humans who take +CON as one of their other enhancements, can take a third level of toughness. (+10 for WF and human)
WF can take a fourth. (+10 for WF)

All races can wear the same equipment (or at least get the same bonuses for the chest slot) and eat the same tomes.

So the racial spread is for toons that max con 100hp. At that difference, the drow would have +3 reflex over the WF and human when including enhancements. The drow could lower his hp by 20 to increase his reflex by 2, the human and WF could lower his hp by 20 to increase his reflex by 3. (yes three) After that, dex gets more expensive.

Note that in everywhere above "Dwarf" could be substituted for "WF".

the Human Sorc I'm assuming put both +stat enhancements into Cha to catch up to the Drow's base 20 Cha).

Can't be done. Each human stat increase must be different. This gives value to odd stats for humans.

So the Dex vs. Con debate is essentially 40 HP versus +3 Reflex save, right? Because it looks like everything else is equal in this comparison.

Except for DC, which if WF is the baseline then humans are +1 and drow are +2.

The drow could, instead, start with 16 cha (the max for a wf), and buy up his dex instead for +2 reflex as compared to a sane drow or +5 as compared to the WF. They could even sell off 2con&20hp for yet another +1 reflex, and even do it -again- for a total of +7 as compared to the hp orientated WF.

So max spread is 140hp on the WF side to 7 reflex on the drow. But its really a silly build.

3. If I decided to roll a Sorc/Pally, would it make more sense to consider a higher Dex Drow? +3 Reflex becomes much more relevant when I'm buffing all of my saves with Divine Grace, doesn't it?

It would only make sense if you intended to hit 20 and instantly reincarnate - or never hit 20 at all. Say if you were using this toon to get 1750 favor and 32 point builds. It's not a reasonable end-game build. Note I'm not saying you won't have fun playing it, and if you want to then have at it. Just don't expect too much from late to end game.

[DaoJones]

Can't be done. Each human stat increase must be different. This gives value to odd stats for humans.

Oh yeah. I had forgotten about that.

Hmm. So then, if I really want to maximize my DCs for 20th level spellcasting, then I pretty much have to make a Drow for that last +1 DC, along with two focus feats and whatever enhancements I can take. My understanding is that DCs at endgame are extremely hard to beat; is the trade-off of one less DC worth whatever you gain from taking a non-Drow? (I don't think I'm inclined to play a WF, as I doubt I'd pay for it when I stop subscribing, plus they don't really appeal to me.)

So in essence I lose a DC and potentially some Dex as a Human, but gain better Con, a bonus feat, some skill points, and... I guess Versatility. I think I might almost prefer taking a Drow with 14 Con. I don't expect to be able to gear this guy out with ideal stuff (I'm too casual a player), so every DC advantage I can get I should take.

[ddoer]

..

for your questions:
1) pal splash has really high saving throw and I could expect it is funny to play with.

I've rolled a drow Monk-splash sorc with higher dex (initial Cha 18, Dex 17). The worst thing is not the -1 DC compare to a Cha 20 but the lack of spell slots and getting new spells 2 level later than a pure. imho, even for a pure sorc, there isnt enough spell slot, and splashing 2 levels of other class makes it even worse. Take a look at my #5 reply in the spell level 8&9 question thread for what spells may be useful.

if you seriously need survivability, go for WF. Self-healing/repairing is a key to survive. Human is the 2nd in survivability imho, not because of the slightly more HP but the human recovery enhancement. Drow and human could survive fairly well with heal scroll when you have got enough UMD.


2)
re. HP vs Reflex save discussion, you could just randomly read some threads on this forum and it's likely you'll find the argument as it exists everywhere. just notice that, high HP doesn't mean zero reflex save, and high reflex save doesn't mean zero HP. Statement like "HP is more important than reflex save" or "reflex save is more important than HP" is not too meaningful to me unless the full build is provided for comparison, and the exact amount of HP and reflex save is stated.

con is FAR more important than dex. sure as a sorc you can buff up to avoid most issues, aka stoneskin, displacement, resists and protections. but failing a reflex save just means a rebuff, but failing a reflex save and not having the hitpoints = you being raised.

for argument sack, I could say the high HP build with no reflex save will be killed by elite traps while the high reflex save build with 40 or 60 less HP survive because it makes some saves and the damage of every hit is reduced by a half.

On paper, at the extreme, you could get a reflex save of 30 and 467 HP at the same time. I do not think high HP and high reflex save are mutually exclusive. Check #1 of the drow cha 20 stats and cha 18 high dex build for details.

if you ask me whether 40 HP or +3 reflex save is more important, I'll ask you how many HP and reflex save you'll get in end game. Ideally, you should have 400+ HP if you'll play epic, and at least 300 HP for end game quest on normal. e.g. if you got 500 HP or 30 reflex save already, neither of them are important. If you have no idea, just go for more HP. Reflex save is similar to AC and it is for those who put efforts to utilize it.


3)

If I decided to roll a Sorc/Pally, would it make more sense to consider a higher Dex Drow? +3 Reflex becomes much more relevant when I'm buffing all of my saves with Divine Grace, doesn't it?"

I don't really get it. If you got for Pally, there is no reason you should put any ability point in Dex and Wis. Divine Grace makes all saving throw to use the Cha modifier. With Divine Grace, you should get over 30 for every save if you got a Cha 40. There was another thread on this topic: Sorc splash Pally?