Sorcerer vs Wizard - Wizard Wins

[quickgrif]

Funny picture there Grif, lol, however, if that is your only response, i am guessing that must be whats in your front yard.

Nah just thought I would post something with a little humor when someone quotes wizard is better than sorc.

[stockwizard5]

Ref: Irivan's Sig

I have one character and its the bestest ever

[Emili]

Sure, as long as you don't bring any sorcs that are lower than 17th level, AND who have all the raid gear necessary to make polar ray strong enough to one-shot...

I was thinking ... is not the spell which is scary but the bloody respawn factor annoying and it depends on how many are beating down the kolbold, I typically puppet the spells, cloud the room so I have initial agro, and start killing the other mobs in the room cleaning them up without having to worry about some silly spell respawning behind me, that I will have to target and shoot again... Yes I could one shot the things too but they're be another in under six seconds while am busy shooting other things. My wizard has 45 spells slotted ... typically when you're nuking on a wiz you're cycling ... DB fireball, disint, etc on Abbot, utility you've knock loaded for doors in shroud and debuffs for bosses a nuking sorc would not even think about... does not mean much but something as simple as black-bones, come accross those the sorc disintigrates one, I sunburst the rest in one aoe - he looks at me and calls me a "cheater."

A wizard has every arcane spell in the game and 45 spell slots to swap into any configuration at any inn or shrine... now that does not seem like much to many a sorc - they tend to use the same strategy and spells over and over with little variation, until new content comes out or a spell rule changes ... then they're scrambling and asking around what to swap or what works best for the newer content or the changed mob... The wizard is the innovator - not because they're a better castor but because they can experiment and adjust easily - have you any clue how we figured out what spells stood up or still work in Epic content? in Devils battle field quests? In Vale? Against Doomssphere? ... give you a clue - like Vale - when the then 14th level fire nuking sorc seen fire resistant mob with SR above thier 14th level FoD and PK... was the wizard happened along banish and other things. Come Epic? where do we turn? It is mostly the wizard once again to find out what works. Now could you imagine if their were no wizards - how long do you think it would take for us to figure out what works being confined to what the sorcerer provides?

Did you know there was a time when Hold Monster, and Haste + Invisibility were "The Bomb." Did you know there was a time Sorcercers and bards could not switch spells at all except one when leveling up? They were constantly rerolling to get back to being sufficient again... Thank goodness they added a spell respec for such classes.

Nothing in this game is stagnant - nor should it be... the game would get boring otherwise. I expect more content, I expect new spells, I expect changes to exisiting ones, I expect new items to enhance spells in school, in power and dynamics... I do believe however if Turbine gets back into it's pace and delivers content and adjustments at the pace it had in the first two years of this game - the wizard finds itself adjusting to changes more readily and the sorcerer has to make adjustment based on what the learned arcanes unviel. I do not believe one class better than the other in any great respects but the wizard adjusts to environment and the sorc re-spec's into practice for it after such is found... that's just the way things happen.

[Montrose]

[COLOR="Plum"]A wizard has every arcane spell in the game and 45 spell slots to swap into any configuration at any inn or shrine... now that does not seem like much to many a sorc - they tend to use the same strategy and spells over and over with little variation, until new content comes out or a spell rule changes ... then they're scrambling and asking around what to swap or what works best for the newer content or the changed mob... The wizard is the innovator - not because they're a better castor but because they can experiment and adjust easily - have you any clue how we figured out what spells stood up or still work in Epic content? in Devils battle field quests? In Vale? Against Doomssphere? ... give you a clue - like Vale - when the then 14th level fire nuking sorc seen fire resistant mob with SR above thier 14th level FoD and PK... was the wizard happened along banish and other things. Come Epic? where do we turn? It is mostly the wizard once again to find out what works. Now could you imagine if their were no wizards - how long do you think it would take for us to figure out what works being confined to what the sorcerer provides?

Yes, it's great that wizards can try out all the new spells, but so what? Meta-game knowledge is not limited to each character. Once a new "good enough" strategy is known, there is no more advantage to being a wizard.

I agree that it's great to be able to play with every spell in the game, it's why I still have a wizard. But that doesn't make the character more viable and it certainly doesn't make wizards better than sorcerors for general gameplay.

It's like arguing that bards at better at haggle than sorcs. Sure, in almost all cases they are, but so what? Does that make bards better than sorcs? I use my bard to sell stuff, then I switch back to my sorc to actually play the game.

"Experimenting with strategy" is a very minor part of this game, and only needs to be accomplished once.

[COLOR="Plum"]
Did you know there was a time when Hold Monster, and Haste + Invisibility were "The Bomb." Did you know there was a time Sorcercers and bards could not switch spells at all except one when leveling up? They were constantly rerolling to get back to being sufficient again... Thank goodness they added a spell respec for such classes.

Once again. What is the point here? The conversation isn't "What class was better two years ago?"

[Kalari]

Smart player vs Ego player

Smart player wins

Look I tried to avoid this thread cause I am bias I love the Wizard class I know what they can bring despite those who choose to think sorcerer's have it better.

But this arguement is nothing but a battle of opinions and thats a battle no one can possibly ever win. I cant be convinced by those who believe that wizards suck compared to sorcs any more then I can convince someone who is against the class to see the beauty in playing one.

For the flaws some think wizards have I see them as things that only players who have no patience or tactics cant work around. For all those who praise the sorc being better I find they tend not to want to use tactical play and thats their right.

I decided to stop taking it so personal those who hate the wizard class or think "it can be better." I love the class when im playing my wizards I use my best asset my brain and it has helped. I think thats what people need to understand instead of arguing what "our seperate views of value or merit" in a class is.

[ddoer]

To all those who keep saying how versatile wizards are compared to sorcs, can you please give us an example from endgame?

first of all, i don't agree with those who think "end-game" should be the only concern. Especially when we can reincarnate over and over again, and the concept of end game keep changing over time. When I'm leveling up, I feel it is much better to use a wiz than sorc. However, the following paragraphs will focus on end-game only.

It's not easy to give an example because different sorc have different spell set, and when I say certain spell is useful in a particular end game quest, one of the sorc could step out and say he/she has the spell and it's not an advantage.

At this point, the main issue is whether the sorc spell slot could cover all/most useful spells. To me, in most spell level (except spell level 1 and 4), there are more useful spells than sorc's spell slot. Any sorc could ignore those good spells that they can't memorized, and excel in their chosen area and perform well or better than any average wiz. When I play my sorc, I don't think my spell slot is enough, and I could live with it and have a careful selected spell list to handle any scenario. (not necessarily the most effective spell, however) For sure, I think my sorc is played very well. With my sorc background, at the beginning when i'm playing my reincarnated wiz, i believe i will use a static spell list like my sorc and won't swap spell too often, but I found out it is not the case and a small change in the spell list could optimize my performance per quest and I swap spell more often than I originally thought.

responding to Aaxeyu's post about example:

1. in Shavarath quests, e.g. in Genesis Point, symbol of stun, otto disco ball, and web are good CC spells. I believe no sorc will take the symbol which is the best as it gives auto-crit to the melees, most will not take disco ball, and most of them will use web only. heightened web + wave of exhaustion works well except the duration is much shorter.
2. I haven't played my wiz in any epic yet. but for sorc, we can't do instant kill with banshee and fod, and many spells that are useful elsewhere are completely useless in epic, and it leaves me not too many usable spells. For shortman'g wiz-king, my sorc loaded Incendiary Cloud that I almost never use it in elsewhere.
3. In dust, a wiz could load both Fod and PK and kill ogres faster than a sorc. Most sorc probably won't load both. (and I somehow think any sorc who keep PK is gimp'd)
4. spell like fire shield is extremely powerful and probably a must to any sorc. But it is also extremely situational. For 98% of game content, it's a waste of spell slot.
5. for non-WF, it's nice to load two repair spells (and one of them should be reconstruct) when in raid with WF tank. For my flesh sorc, I won't even take the reconstruct and will use scroll only.
6. in some cases, using scroll is a workaround. Take an example, for Greater Heroism, there are many situations we need a longer than 11 mins GH. e.g. VoD, coal chamber, most epic quests (i assume we hope people don't get killed; if you consider people will get killed in 11 mins and get rez, it's ok to use scroll)
7. i don't know how many sorc take Trap the Soul, or have enough material to use it constantly, but for a wiz, it is a good FoD replacement when the mobs in a quest have DW such as in Bastion.

if it is not clear, the limitation of sorc doesn't make them gimp'd, but the versatility of wiz is a clear advantage. When there is no option to change spell, and you have not experienced the usefulness of certain spell, it's natural to think the spells you got already is good enough. When I run my sorc, I don't think the versatility is necessarily (maybe only except right after mod 9 was launched and spending 2-3 weeks to change spells)

[Emili]

Yes, it's great that wizards can try out all the new spells, but so what? Meta-game knowledge is not limited to each character. Once a new "good enough" strategy is known, there is no more advantage to being a wizard.

I agree that it's great to be able to play with every spell in the game, it's why I still have a wizard. But that doesn't make the character more viable and it certainly doesn't make wizards better than sorcerors for general gameplay.

It's like arguing that bards at better at haggle than sorcs. Sure, in almost all cases they are, but so what? Does that make bards better than sorcs? I use my bard to sell stuff, then I switch back to my sorc to actually play the game.

"Experimenting with strategy" is a very minor part of this game, and only needs to be accomplished once.



Once again. What is the point here? The conversation isn't "What class was better two years ago?"

As I stated in my post... I do not believe one class better than the other in any great respects but the wizard adjusts to environment and the sorc re-spec's into practice for it after such is found... that's just the way things happen.

And no meta game changes... we had a point where it came to a complete halt, but if it lingers too long the result is no more players. Meta game has to change constantly to present a new and different challenge, as to what the point of refering to two years ago, three years ago, one year ago? are you approaching the same game using the same tools you had three years ago? two years ago, one year ago? No of course not... will you play Deleras the same a year from now? That remains to be seen... If the game gets back on track by Turbine delivering everything changes ... even those quests we played so long ago.

[GreenGurgler]

Nick Naylor: OK, let's say that you're defending chocolate, and I'm defending vanilla. Now if I were to say to you: 'Vanilla is the best flavour ice-cream', you'd say...

Joey Naylor: No, chocolate is.

Nick Naylor: Exactly, but you can't win that argument... so, I'll ask you: so you think chocolate is the end all and the all of ice-cream, do you?

Joey Naylor: It's the best ice-cream, I wouldn't order any other.

Nick Naylor: Oh! So it's all chocolate for you is it?

Joey Naylor: Yes, chocolate is all I need.

Nick Naylor: Well, I need more than chocolate, and for that matter I need more than vanilla. I believe that we need freedom. And choice when it comes to our ice-cream, and that Joey Naylor, that is the defintion of liberty.

Joey Naylor: But that's not what we're talking about

Nick Naylor: Ah! But that's what I'm talking about.

Joey Naylor: ...but you didn't prove that vanilla was the best...

Nick Naylor: I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right.

Joey Naylor: But you still didn't convince me

Nick Naylor: It's that I'm not after you. I'm after them. [points into the crowd]

[Grimlust]

An observation I would like to make after reading this thread (and a few others similar to this one) in it's entirety is this:

" Sorc vs. Wiz" is an argument that seems to include number-crunched facts (or comparisons) that suggest <objectively> an element of superiority of one over the other within the context or situational frame it is presented. But when coupled with emotional preferences/individualized play styles, the arguments tend to get a bit convoluted in the attempt to justify the represented opinion.

This being said, in my opinion, I think it's based on the individual, their style of play, and their end goals of what they want out of their character. I know great drivers I would never put behind the wheel of a Porsche because they total it before they made it out of their neighborhood... and likewise, I know a semi-pro racer who tried his hand at off-roading and ended up around a tree.... different dynamics at work in each and all are not a comfortable fit for all.

The one thing I do like about having two separate classes, is what they bring to an otherwise "narrow" game. Two classes with slight but significant differences offer much more creative latitude to building and multi-classing that just 1 caster class would. They prevent what would undoubtedly result into even fewer cookie-cutter builds than what are out at the moment. Maybe this is drifting a bit off topic, but the diversity challenges players to test and push the classes to their limits -even if it is in competition.

I find the biggest obstacle in many cases with the people I have played with is not so much their character classes or builds -in fact the builds today have come along way in some aspects from back when I started the game; but instead is playing style. Players take so much time to research their next build, the gear they will have, the feats and enhancements... and then they jump on it playing it the way they play a totally different class. Maybe it's muscle-memory (so to speak) or just habit on their part; nonetheless, adapting play style to accommodate the class/build is the caveat in my book.

If something isn't working for you, before you scream doom and gloom on the class/build... ask your guildies if they think you need to tighten up your playing style first.

If that doesn't work, you have obviously tried to drive your Porsche off road.

[SquelchHU]

All I know is, quite a few times, I've been in a party with a sorc, and they didn't have the spell that makes the quest a cake-walk (i.e. ooze puppet in Kobold, Flesh-to-Stone in Tor or Prey, debuffs for Harry back when the Shroud was hard, etc.)

I've seen plenty of sorcs that couldn't handle the beholders because of the anti-magic field...

Wizards can afford the Enlarge feat (very useful in limited situations), and can switch to niche spells that may only be useful in a couple of quests, but are extremely useful in those quests.

Sorcs are generally better, but they can't do everything wizards can do...

There are a few instances where that comes up. Thing is you just named most of them.

Ooze Puppet: Useless basically everywhere else.
6th level spells: You get three. Greater Heroism, Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone. Of course if you're warforged one of those has to go for Reconstruct and if you regularly run something like Abbot one of them has to go for Disintegrate.
7th level spells: 3 again. Finger of Death, Dancing Ball and... Waves of Exhaustion would come at the expense of Delayed Blast Fireball or something.

So yeah, there's a few instances. If more spells were useful, the disadvantages would mean more. But again, narrow character for narrow game. Just look at PnP where lots of spells are useful and Sorcerers are totally gimped accordingly. Except maybe don't take it that far.

I know you probably have but I got ask rhetoricaly, Have you run TOD with a WF as a tank, and you as healer? Have you run epic content? EVERY sp COUNTS. I play a sorc as my main..and have found my 3k sp burn away quite fast, alternating between heal scrolls and reconstruct. Most often casting reconstruct because 600 pt crits make hp's go away quick like.

Yes I have reconstruct on my Sorc, as well as firewall...and haste...

O..wait...there are other spells in DDO? (i know GH, sleet, ddoor, prot becuase i solo alot...polar and disintegrate...those count too)

...Who is tanking TOD and Epic stuff without Heavy Fortification?

But back on topic, if there was 5-10 more GOOD spells in the game, there would be pros and cons to each and some choice involved. Currently Turbine seems to be working on making fewer spells useful, but if they reverse that then yeah.

Though in general, arcanes are in a hard spot because anything that can be subjected to instant death and/or fire is easily beaten by the same basic tactics so they have to remove that in order to even begin allowing for diversity... and that just results in more of the same three devil mobs over and over.

[ddoer]

the "massive amount of SP" of sorc is 600-700 SP per rest shrine. ... For 99% game content, with the bauble and torc, you don't need to use 2300 SP per rest shrine. ...

I know you probably have but I got ask rhetoricaly, Have you run TOD with a WF as a tank, and you as healer? Have you run epic content? EVERY sp COUNTS. I play a sorc as my main..and have found my 3k sp burn away quite fast, alternating between heal scrolls and reconstruct. Most often casting reconstruct because 600 pt crits make hp's go away quick like.

...Who is tanking TOD and Epic stuff without Heavy Fortification?

I think he meant disintegrate from Horoth, that deals around 500 points of damage.

@stazer, the fact is you have 700SP more than a wiz. if the your WF tank needs 2300SP to heal (plus reconstruct scrolls), then your 3000 SP sorc has no advantage. if your WF tank needs 3000 SP or more to heal, then the wiz has to use 1 or 2 major pots than you. Major pots are easy to find, my main caster has over 100 and constantly getting contribution more than I use. For WF tank healing, if you can't keep it up, there are always other people who can help with reconstruct scroll and the clerics are more than willing to heal.

for WF repairing, a wiz can load two spells to heal (and even mass repair if there are more than one WF melees) that can recover the WF's HP much faster than you do. Usually the boss does not do two high damage attack in a row (and if they do, say, do disintegrate twice, most tank won't survive anyway), and you'd better rely on reconstruct scroll mainly, and use your mana only to top up the tank when the scroll is not enough.

when I run Tod in guild, there are usually one or two other ppl spam scroll healing other than the main healer. As scrolls are cheap and many ppl have enough UMD to use, it's better to rely on scroll and use mana only when the tank get hit by disintegrate or stunned, or when the scroll spamming is not fast enough to top the tank. Assume the tod part 3 end fight takes 6 mins, I don't think your 3000 sp is enough to keep the WF tank if you don't use scroll.

if you are the sole healer and no one else can help you, there is something wrong with the party leader.

Ooze Puppet: Useless basically everywhere else.

i think Ooze Puppet is useless in Enter the Kobold, too. It is useful in low level, however.

imho, for L6 and L7, there are more than 3 good spells in each level.

[richieelias]

responding to Aaxeyu's post about example:
in Shavarath quests, e.g. in Genesis Point, symbol of stun, otto disco ball, and web are good CC spells. I believe no sorc will take the symbol which is the best as it gives auto-crit to the melees, most will not take disco ball, and most of them will use web only. heightened web + wave of exhaustion works well except the duration is much shorter.

My sorc has all of these spells including symbol of stunning, and uses them very effectively. Symbol of stunning can lock things down like no other.

I haven't played my wiz in any epic yet. but for sorc, we can't do instant kill with banshee and fod, and many spells that are useful elsewhere are completely useless in epic, and it leaves me not too many usable spells. For shortman'g wiz-king, my sorc loaded Incendiary Cloud that I almost never use it in elsewhere.

I dropped FoD for FtS long ago. Too many death wards and its more fun making statues anyway. As for wail... well there isnt much else from level 9 to pick once you already have energy drain. And even then, I still have a 3rd level 9 slot with (insert random **** spell here). Makes me wish I could choose to select a perma-heightened lower level spell for that 3rd slot :P


As for what your or anyone elses opinion is on which is better, wizard or sorc: I do not care :P

In dust, a wiz could load both Fod and PK and kill ogres faster than a sorc. Most sorc probably won't load both. (and I somehow think any sorc who keep PK is gimp'd)
spell like fire shield is extremely powerful and probably a must to any sorc. But it is also extremely situational. For 98% of game content, it's a waste of spell slot.

Some sorcs still take both FoD and PK. I personally do not, as I find them both to be rather lackluster when FtS does the same thing and bypasses the blanket deathwards in end/near end level content. Air elementals become slightly more of an issue (what with having to get closer to drop a wail and all), but not so much that I ever miss it.

for non-WF, it's nice to load two repair spells (and one of them should be reconstruct) when in raid with WF tank. For my flesh sorc, I won't even take the reconstruct and will use scroll only.
in some cases, using scroll is a workaround. Take an example, for Greater Heroism, there are many situations we need a longer than 11 mins GH. e.g. VoD, coal chamber, most epic quests (i assume we hope people don't get killed; if you consider people will get killed in 11 mins and get rez, it's ok to use scroll)

I put GH on my sorc. I do desert runs a lot and its just more cost effective to be able to cast it from SP. Since the Acid Fog nerf there really isnt anything else I'd rather have at that level.

i don't know how many sorc take Trap the Soul, or have enough material to use it constantly, but for a wiz, it is a good FoD replacement when the mobs in a quest have DW such as in Bastion.

The material component is going to be exactly as difficult for a wizard as a sorc. There is no difference there. As for picking the spell as a sorc, I did not, but it would not be difficult at all to fit it in if I chose to.

[Aashrym]

I know great drivers I would never put behind the wheel of a Porsche because they total it before they made it out of their neighborhood... and likewise, I know a semi-pro racer who tried his hand at off-roading and ended up around a tree.... different dynamics at work in each and all are not a comfortable fit for all.

I think that is an awesome analogy for play style.

Personally, when I play wizzie after a sorc he just feels plain old sluggish with the slower casting.

It's been a while since I've had to adjust tho. Not being able to swap spells drives me nuts. 'Such and such spell would be so useful right now' goes thru my mind often enough that I prefer a wizzie over a sorc just about every time. The faster casting just doesn't mean as much to me as the versatility choosing spells.

The extra feats seems like gravy on the turkey with the wizzie. Spell point pool has never seemed like much of a consideration.

Faster casting was the only real advantage I enjoyed with a sorc.

Just my 2 cents ;-)

[SquelchHU]

I think he meant disintegrate from Horoth, that deals around 500 points of damage.

That makes a lot more sense.

@stazer, the fact is you have 700SP more than a wiz. if the your WF tank needs 2300SP to heal (plus reconstruct scrolls), then your 3000 SP sorc has no advantage. if your WF tank needs 3000 SP or more to heal, then the wiz has to use 1 or 2 major pots than you. Major pots are easy to find, my main caster has over 100 and constantly getting contribution more than I use. For WF tank healing, if you can't keep it up, there are always other people who can help with reconstruct scroll and the clerics are more than willing to heal.

Bauble.

i think Ooze Puppet is useless in Enter the Kobold, too. It is useful in low level, however.

imho, for L6 and L7, there are more than 3 good spells in each level.

My point was it could be useful there.

And I said that.