Sorcerer vs Wizard - Wizard Wins

[smatt]

I like Wizards. I really do. And they do have some advantages, such as higher spell DCs, and more feats.

However the thing to keep in mind is that this is a narrow game. Narrow characters win narrow games because narrow games do not appreciate broadness, as a result the sorcerer really isn't missing that many good spells. And the advantage of sorcerers only grows as more and more of the obscure, but useful in the right situation spells are nerfed.

Obviously this changes with the metagame, but as it is now the devs seem to be having a love/hate relationship with sorcs. Why love/hate? Well, have you seen the endgame content?

Wizards are missing out on the former though. Don't get me wrong, plenty of good wizards out there (hell, I've ran with Ghoste before, I'd be lying if I said I didn't) just that the metagame is currently biased against them.

Best short explanation I've seen of the situation...... With the game currently there is no reason for the person worried about a couple minutes of completion time to play, or accept a wizard into their group, over a Sorcy if given the choice. Sure you will run into a few quests out there that a particular Sorcy may not have the spell selection for the fastest possible completion. But those are few and far between.

I'll still play my 18wiz/2rog though... Because I simply don't care about a couple minutes, as long as it's not an hour .... And I'd say at least 90% as a best guess of the DDO population feels the same way. Play what you have fun playing, what you find effective and don't worry about what the desperate to be noticed say.

[ddoer]

You do know that the wizard past life feat can be purchased by sorcs, right? You just need to have leveled as a wizard before.

Just to clarify my point of better Past Life feat is about future proof:

The Wiz past life is significantly better than that of sorc. If you pick Sorc in this life, you’ll have to do Sorc->Wiz->Sorc to get that feat. And if you pick Wiz in the first life, you could do Wiz->Sorc and save 4.3M XP grinding. In another words, if you go for wiz and regret for the decision, and then go back to Sorc in the next life, you still get the premium past life feat that make your sorc much better. (the Spell Penetration +2 could be viewed as getting a free feat, and the +1 DC as +2 Cha)

If you consider spell penetration feats are useful for sorc, (or you want to attempt to solo Running with Devils ;-) ) going for wiz->wiz->sorc is great and it could saves you two feats for the feat starving sorc class.

[Thrudh]

Sorcs can do everything wizards can do, and they do it more efficient.

All I know is, quite a few times, I've been in a party with a sorc, and they didn't have the spell that makes the quest a cake-walk (i.e. ooze puppet in Kobold, Flesh-to-Stone in Tor or Prey, debuffs for Harry back when the Shroud was hard, etc.)

I've seen plenty of sorcs that couldn't handle the beholders because of the anti-magic field...

Wizards can afford the Enlarge feat (very useful in limited situations), and can switch to niche spells that may only be useful in a couple of quests, but are extremely useful in those quests.

Sorcs are generally better, but they can't do everything wizards can do...

[Thrudh]

All sorcs should have the correct damage dealing spell for every situation. You don't need to be a wizard to have a well-built spell list.

Not every situation is best handled by damage spells. Sorcs DO lack the best spell at times... Wizards never do.

However, you're right that the list of GOOD spells is too limited, and makes it easy for a sorc to have 90% of all good spells... All we need, IMO, for balance, is about 5 more GOOD spells (that are useless from a scroll).

[Vienemen]

Well, they limit what bosses are affected by...hindering the effectiveness of the wiz.

Take away the ability to buy heal scrolls...might be interesting.

May need more than 5 more USEFUL spells to shift balance more towards wiz...been waiting for near 4 years now for my spell book to swell up...it has grown, but a majority of the spells have been less than optimal.

Turbine seems to have made a concious effort to not bridge some of the gaps...perhaps its their thoughts that they tip the balance in the wizs favor too much or perhaps its that they dont have the time/manpower/priority/advanced coding for more useful spells...

I am behind the power curve taking that year or so off with my wiz but will TR as a sorc and see for myself both sides to the coin and then decide which if any my third TR will become. Lets hope that since I have limited playing time...by the time I get around to a 3rd TR...many of the above will be seen in different light.

V

[smatt]

Not every situation is best handled by damage spells. Sorcs DO lack the best spell at times... Wizards never do.

However, you're right that the list of GOOD spells is too limited, and makes it easy for a sorc to have 90% of all good spells... All we need, IMO, for balance, is about 5 more GOOD spells (that are useless from a scroll).

The huge imbalance comes from the massive amount of SP a Sorcy has, as well as the amount of spell slots they have. They should've done one or the other, give them the SP, but not the spell slots or Vis-Versa. Too late now...... Taking either away would be a bad thing.

[ddoer]

The huge imbalance comes from the massive amount of SP a Sorcy has, as well as the amount of spell slots they have. They should've done one or the other, give them the SP, but not the spell slots or Vis-Versa. Too late now...... Taking either away would be a bad thing.

the "massive amount of SP" of sorc is 600-700 SP per rest shrine. It is around 12 polar ray, 2 major pots, or 5 mins of mana regen time. For 99% game content, with the bauble and torc, you don't need to use 2300 SP per rest shrine. For the remain 1%, it's mostly boss nuking scenario that no one care you shoot less polar ray, or on epic that any normal sorc won't have enough mana anyway. (at least, without careful conservation)

[Aspenor]

Not every situation is best handled by damage spells. Sorcs DO lack the best spell at times... Wizards never do.

I dunno, they always seem to work for me. Kobold: Kill spells. Tor: Kill giants. etc.

[Thrudh]

I dunno, they always seem to work for me.

Oh sure you'll get all quests finished.... and quickly..

But I guarentee there are some quests that will be finished faster and/or easier with a wizard with the right spells.

Not many! which is why sorcs are still generally ahead, but there are some.

[irivan]

Some of the people here are listing UMD as an advantage for the Sorc, last time i checked, getting my Wizard to 40 is not an issue, I heal scroll all the time.

People that run with me can attest to the fact that i am totally self healed.

Spell points??? Really?

I think once you have 2000+ spell points, that this is a mute point, if you use it all up, you need some training, i can routinely make the next shrine, with little exceptions before running out. My wizard has 2310 SP currently, plus the bauble, plus the spell storing ring, plus the archivist necklace, i also find and average of 3-10 majors a day.

Spell point issues are a thing of the past for a competent end game wizard.

Spell cycling eliminates that casting advantage of a sorc easily, don't even throw quicken into the equation.

And then there is the DC issue, Wizard just wins here, simple.

And for those claiming that there are not enough spells on the list to make the extra slots worth while, simply aren't very knowledgeable and are not good at applying their spells, i wish i had more slots than i do now, In fact you almost can never count on Sorc's debuffing monsters, and that is just one thing all of those slots are good for.

A wizard can carry all of the one shots, good stacking debuffs, all of the major dps spells, as well as all of the significant buffs.

Wizard is not just better than a sorc, it is better in every way.

End of discussion.

[stazer]

End of discussion.

LOLOL WOW!! well I guess you have spoken and this 3+ year debate can end! Thank you!

[stazer]

the "massive amount of SP" of sorc is 600-700 SP per rest shrine. It is around 12 polar ray, 2 major pots, or 5 mins of mana regen time. For 99% game content, with the bauble and torc, you don't need to use 2300 SP per rest shrine. For the remain 1%, it's mostly boss nuking scenario that no one care you shoot less polar ray, or on epic that any normal sorc won't have enough mana anyway. (at least, without careful conservation)

I know you probably have but I got ask rhetoricaly, Have you run TOD with a WF as a tank, and you as healer? Have you run epic content? EVERY sp COUNTS. I play a sorc as my main..and have found my 3k sp burn away quite fast, alternating between heal scrolls and reconstruct. Most often casting reconstruct because 600 pt crits make hp's go away quick like.

Yes I have reconstruct on my Sorc, as well as firewall...and haste...

O..wait...there are other spells in DDO? (i know GH, sleet, ddoor, prot becuase i solo alot...polar and disintegrate...those count too)

[stazer]

I dunno, they always seem to work for me. Kobold: Kill spells. Tor: Kill giants. etc.

seriously why ooze puppet when you can just polar ray one shot those scary living spells...mass charm for the mephits...kobold's not so scary.

[Gunga]

End of discussion.

Not quite...

Ding.

Thanks for the buffs.

NOW end of discussion.

[Sarazahj]

I play a Sorceress and have tried a Wizard,but quit it very early since I didn't like the slow cast time/cooldowns.

Personally the only spells I'd want to squeeze in but can't are:

Knock(well as I found out a Knock Wand works fine for New Invasion's prisoner Chest,so it's a moot point I guess).

Reconstruct would be a fine spell to have but I'm not specced for it so it wouldn't be that great,Scrolls work decently but it's still a big one(although thinking of dropping FtS for it,Tor is the only place I use it "often",followed by Mindsunder's Deathwarded thingies,but Mass Charm works amazingly well for both so I'm really leaning towards a switch).

Otto's disco ball,I got GT instead,since I don't want to drag a bunch of Scrolls around,but I could always switch it if I ever really need it.

Trap the Soul,well,I'm not sure about this one but I might,possibly,take it for some crafting purposes,but yeah...

Meteor Swarm,kinda,the aim's terrible and I'll have to use my robe clickies to make it work well but I guess it could be a decent spell to have,very flashy(does fire spec/Inferno even affect the bludgeon damage?).

Casting speed's not too bad when a Wiz gets Quicken,but it's an extra 5-10 SP per spell,which drains their already smaller SP pool faster,not to mention the need to spend 12 APs and I can't imagine how to fit that in since I'm already "lacking" those on my Sorceress.

Cooldown...that's a big one,sure a Wiz can alternate spells to more or less make up for the cooldown,but what're they going to alternate with?

If you're going to shoot Frost Lance,Disintegrate,Polar Ray at an Orthon,you're going to burn SP fast and risk "losing" a lot of damage compared to pure Polar Ray nuking(since I keep Heighten almost 24/7 SP cost for all those would rise up to 75 a pop,80-85 for a Wiz).

Wiz get a lot more Feats and much better saves,granted,that probably saves their lives a whole lot,personally I get tripped very easily and it really annoys me but I can't do anything about it,Will save's fine and Fort,well,haven't had that much trouble with Fort really,usually manage my saves or make it through the consequences rather unscathed.

Reflex doesn't really bother me much,if Fire Ele in Shroud's shooting DBF at me,no worries,recast Protection against Elements and I'm good for a second round,traps,well,I don't run in first.

Beholders...nothing much to say,Wiz win easily with Enlarge,a decent Sorcerer can land ED FoD right before getting hit with AM but it's a pain,Wiz can safely snipe from far away.

Now I'm pretty sure what I'm posting is biased but I do like my Sorceress more than Wizards,not to mention I've had bad experiences with some Wiz lately(one of them ran around throwing every kind of cloud possible,including Sleet Storm...).

I really think they're both fairly balanced,it's more about a person's playing style than anything.

Oh and...you can't compare Wiz capstone with Sorc capstone since ours doesn't even work!

[irivan]

I know you probably have but I got ask rhetoricaly, Have you run TOD with a WF as a tank, and you as healer? Have you run epic content? EVERY sp COUNTS. I play a sorc as my main..and have found my 3k sp burn away quite fast, alternating between heal scrolls and reconstruct. Most often casting reconstruct because 600 pt crits make hp's go away quick like.

Yes I have reconstruct on my Sorc, as well as firewall...and haste...

O..wait...there are other spells in DDO? (i know GH, sleet, ddoor, prot becuase i solo alot...polar and disintegrate...those count too)

Personally, i have run all of the epic content, was among the first to do so, we run tower every Sun and Wed.

I am the only caster, and you are right every SP does count, but there must be a discrepancy, since you have 3000+ likely, and i have only 2310, if i get by and my groups do to, whats the difference here?

oooh wait don't tell me, because your nerfed sorc has lower DC's you have to cast the same spells over and over again to achieve the same result, thus nullifying your SP advantage.

yes, and i have spoken so this 3+ year debate can end, there really isn't anything to discuss, Wizard is superior.

[Arlith]

My pet rock smashes your eight ball logic

He says "wizards for the win"

You can not fight the logic of my pet rock!

Ever notice how owners resemble their pets??

Just asking.

Sorcs FTW!

Though I do have a 20 wizzy I TR'd back into a wizzy again. She isn't so bad. Really the only thing wrong with her is she isnt a sorc. Meh. No one is perfect.

[quickgrif]

Personally, i have run all of the epic content, was among the first to do so, we run tower every Sun and Wed.

I am the only caster, and you are right every SP does count, but there must be a discrepancy, since you have 3000+ likely, and i have only 2310, if i get by and my groups do to, whats the difference here?

oooh wait don't tell me, because your nerfed sorc has lower DC's you have to cast the same spells over and over again to achieve the same result, thus nullifying your SP advantage.

yes, and i have spoken so this 3+ year debate can end, there really isn't anything to discuss, Wizard is superior.

Nice try but no simply no.
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...nt_of_fail.jpg

[irivan]

Nice try but no simply no.
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/e...nt_of_fail.jpg

Funny picture there Grif, lol, however, if that is your only response, i am guessing that must be whats in your front yard.

[Thrudh]

seriously why ooze puppet when you can just polar ray one shot those scary living spells...mass charm for the mephits...kobold's not so scary.

Sure, as long as you don't bring any sorcs that are lower than 17th level, AND who have all the raid gear necessary to make polar ray strong enough to one-shot...