Sorc with a touch of Bard?

[whysper]

But what differs from the bard is the fact that bards are trained to cast spells using light armours..not just to wear them.

No. Bard spells have simpler somatic components which allows them to be cast in light armour.

[Damionic]

No. Bard spells have simpler somatic components which allows them to be cast in light armour.

same difference...

Ok with the bard training of casting spells with a simpler somatic component to them a bard/sorc mixed toon will still have the bard training to cast the same spells but simpler..thus allowing it to cast using light armour.

[whysper]

same difference...

Ok with the bard training of casting spells with a simpler somatic component to them a bard/sorc mixed toon will still have the bard training to cast the same spells but simpler..thus allowing it to cast using light armour.

Nope. The Bard only knows how to cast certain bard spells. The argument that a Bard could cast any spell off the Bard spell list without ASF regardless of the source of the spell slot is explicitly contradicted by the rules (which makes sense since the Bard does not know that spell.) You could tenuously argue that selecting a spell the Bard already knows off a different lists would negate ASF, but obviously the counterargument is that the different invocations do not access the same power source, or do so in an incompatible manner.

[Damionic]

Nope. The Bard only knows how to cast certain bard spells. The argument that a Bard could cast any spell off the Bard spell list without ASF regardless of the source of the spell slot is explicitly contradicted by the rules (which makes sense since the Bard does not know that spell.) You could tenuously argue that selecting a spell the Bard already knows off a different lists would negate ASF, but obviously the counterargument is that the different invocations do not access the same power source, or do so in an incompatible manner.

So what it boils down to is..are the bard spells Arcane or not...

If they are arcane then with the spells from the bard spell lists..SHOULD crossover to the other arcane class lists..because be it of pure talent (sorcerer) or a researched spell (wizard) the method of casting the spell would be the bards method because is carries the advantage of the simpler somatic componant.

Either way the above point is mute..because the bards method of gaining the spells is the same as the sorcerer..because of the spell swapping laws.

In short.. a Borc (bard/sorc mix) should NOT suffer ASF with spells from the bard lists (even if cast on the sorc side)

but a Bwiz (bard/wizard mix) Should suffer ASF due to two tottaly different methods of casting the spell..although learning to cast the spell from the bards methods should lessen the ASF or just have a consentration check.

[whysper]

So what it boils down to is..are the bard spells Arcane or not...

If they are arcane then with the spells from the bard spell lists..SHOULD crossover to the other arcane class lists..because be it of pure talent (sorcerer) or a researched spell (wizard) the method of casting the spell would be the bards method because is carries the advantage of the simpler somatic componant.

Either way the above point is mute..because the bards method of gaining the spells is the same as the sorcerer..because of the spell swapping laws.

In short.. a Borc (bard/sorc mix) should NOT suffer ASF with spells from the bard lists (even if cast on the sorc side)

No.

[DropList]

A couple of end game points here.

1. You will need at least a 55 ac (and thats assuming you have several ouside buffs to get you up from there). Now if you are the type who likes to do things of much lower level for fun...well ac may work.

2. A lvl of bard is ONLY usefull to unlock umd as a call skill. A 39 umd can be reached by a high cha sorc with only a few pieces of gear.

If I were to multiclass with bard..I would change it at endgame with a plus 1 reincarnation. I realize it will help durin the leveling process(which is like 5 % of that toons life...at most)

Answer:make a pure WF sorc or wiz Or make what ya want and have fun.....

[Damionic]

No.

Please don't just put No as your answer...if you have a valid counter-argument..then lets have it.

otherwise...I win

[whysper]

Please don't just put No as your answer...if you have a valid counter-argument..then lets have it.

otherwise...I win

I have refuted your "points" above. The last one was a complete non-sequitur not worthy of dissecting further.

D&D Bards can only cast spells they know off the Bard spell list without ASF chance. This is explicitly stated in the rules, and as I explained, arguments for full or limited overlap are not logically consistent within the game world.

YHL. HAND.

[Anderei]

I believe a lvl 1 bard/19 src/wiz can cast any lvl 1 spells without armour/ASF check (like Glitterdust from the above example), but lvl 2 spells raise the check. 4 bard lvls make all level 2 spells without armour/ASF and so on.

Did not verify this however.

[Damionic]

I have refuted your "points" above. The last one was a complete non-sequitur not worthy of dissecting further.

D&D Bards can only cast spells they know off the Bard spell list without ASF chance. This is explicitly stated in the rules, and as I explained, arguments for full or limited overlap are not logically consistent within the game world.

YHL. HAND.

Whether or not stated in the D&D Rules, Logic would suggest that someone gaining two or more classes would share the advantages from BOTH classes. (saying its not allowed because the game creator diddent think of it is just cheap!)

Unless it states clearly in "teh rulz" that you cannot use the simpler somatic componant method on a multiclassed bard/sorc ..then it IS allowed in the game.

Game.Set.Match

[Freeman]

Whether or not stated in the D&D Rules, Logic would suggest that someone gaining two or more classes would share the advantages from BOTH classes. (saying its not allowed because the game creator diddent think of it is just cheap!)

Unless it states clearly in "teh rulz" that you cannot use the simpler somatic componant method on a multiclassed bard/sorc ..then it IS allowed in the game.

Game.Set.Match

Bard spells are not sorc/wizard spells. They may function the same, but they are not. That is why their spells MUST have verbal components, and can't be cast with the Silent Spell feat. You can look up the rules on both the bard spell descriptions and the Silent spell feat to confirm this. Since the rule states that bard spells are free from ASF, not arcane spells cast by a bard, I'm not sure why you would think this could be circumvented in some way.

As for the "clearly stated in the rules", guess this line from the SRD might be clear enough:

A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

[Damionic]

Bard spells are not sorc/wizard spells. They may function the same, but they are not. That is why their spells MUST have verbal components, and can't be cast with the Silent Spell feat. You can look up the rules on both the bard spell descriptions and the Silent spell feat to confirm this. Since the rule states that bard spells are free from ASF, not arcane spells cast by a bard, I'm not sure why you would think this could be circumvented in some way.

As for the "clearly stated in the rules", guess this line from the SRD might be clear enough:



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

Ive been reading the "rules" as well..from the same site.

Multiclass
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm

A character may add new classes as he or she progresses in level, thus becoming a multiclass character. The class abilities from a character’s different classes combine to determine a multiclass character’s overall abilities. Multiclassing improves a character’s versatility at the expense of focus.

The page even has additional rules for class mixes under Class Features and if you care to look you will see NO rules made for a Bard/Sorc mix using the bards method of casting spells to stop ASF in light armour.

Also in

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

By contrast, bards not only know how to wear light armor effectively, but they can also ignore the arcane spell failure chance for such armor. A bard wearing armor heavier than light or using any type of shield incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance, even if he becomes proficient with that armor.

So its something that can be learned..IE a talent (remember sorcs gain there spells as talents)

and if you take..Armor restricts the complicated gestures that a wizards or sorcerer must make while casting any spell that has a somatic component (most do). The armor and shield descriptions list the arcane spell failure chance for different armors and shields.

That means that anything that limits the complicated gestures of the spells will cause ASF..

So Turbine you have two choices...

1. Allow this oversite between bards and sorcerers to remain as is (allowing this mix to cast in light armour)

or

2. Add ASF to anyone using weapons,rings,scrolls to cast Arcane spells and see how that takes...

[Delt]

All the other bickering aside, a bard splash on a sorc is a stupid idea at this point in the game (ie: 20 cap). There is no real payoff.

Luckily, Lesser Reincarnates will allow everyone to fix that particular mistake pretty easily.

As for the ASF, pretty sure it was tested before - a fair amount of people splashed a bard level on their sorcs when the cap was lower. If spells aren't getting an ASF check anymore, that's a new addition.

Personally, I wouldn't trust Damionic's testing, as he doesn't sound especially knowledgable on the game. I'm sure there are plenty of vets with shelved 19sorc/1bard's that could try it out.

On that note, with the addition of the new reincarnates, I guess levelling will change slightly. People will start splashing self-healing/feat/AC classes early game, then swap out later for efficiancy. Should be interesting to see what happens.

[Uskathoth]

A couple of end game points here.
...I realize it will help durin the leveling process(which is like 5 % of that toons life...at most)

I wonder if this will be true in the future as F2P changes the player base. There may be more players that level up to 20 then semi-retire that toon and start something new. I guess time will tell.

[DoctorWhofan]

All the other bickering aside, a bard splash on a sorc is a stupid idea at this point in the game (ie: 20 cap). There is no real payoff.

Luckily, Lesser Reincarnates will allow everyone to fix that particular mistake pretty easily.

As for the ASF, pretty sure it was tested before - a fair amount of people splashed a bard level on their sorcs when the cap was lower. If spells aren't getting an ASF check anymore, that's a new addition.

Personally, I wouldn't trust Damionic's testing, as he doesn't sound especially knowledgable on the game. I'm sure there are plenty of vets with shelved 19sorc/1bard's that could try it out.

On that note, with the addition of the new reincarnates, I guess levelling will change slightly. People will start splashing self-healing/feat/AC classes early game, then swap out later for efficiancy. Should be interesting to see what happens.

Actually that is true. I built a Bard/sorc to test the theory. Got him to level 6 and concuded his ASF went out the door when he took that level of bard.

I reported it then. Sounds like an exploit against the Turbine's rules, never mind 3.5 ones. I never said anything to anyone because I felt I was advertising an Exploit.

[Uskathoth]

Daimonic, I don't think game-world-consistency is likely to get Turbine to ever change anything. I think only a balance argument or a "this makes for a bad play experience" argument is likely to produce a change in the rules.

In other words, you may be right that it would be more internally consistent to let bards cast in armor (or you may not be--I think it's a how-many-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin argument, myself), but it doesn't really make any difference. The rules say they can't and if they can it is a bug that may or may not be fixed. Whether or not it get fixed likely has more to do with how long the developers' to-do-list is than anything else since it's not game breaking in any event.

[Freeman]

So its something that can be learned..IE a talent (remember sorcs gain there spells as talents)

Yes, it absolutely can be learned. By taking levels of bard and learning spells the bardic way. If you take levels of sorc, you are learning spells the way sorcs cast them. Otherwise, you are trying to gain abilities from one class by taking levels in another. I'm fairly certain the multiclassing section you linked didn't have a rule allowing that. In fact, there are only a couple of explicitly defined abilities that allow that.

You can quibble all you want, and try to prove something by negation. I'll stick with these quotes from the SRD:

Armor restricts the complicated gestures that a wizards or sorcerer must make while casting any spell that has a somatic component (most do).

Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Your only rules-based argument seems to be that there isn't a rule explicitly stating that a bard/sorc suffers from ASF with the sorc spells, even though I quoted a rule that says exactly that. There also isn't a rule explicitly stating that humans don't have the ability to fly, but I wouldn't try to advance that argument. It has just as much validity though, since there isn't a rule saying they don't. I don't care if you try to advocate that the rule be changed, but you need to use valid arguments to support your premise first.

[Crann]

I also performed a test rolling a 3 sorc/1 bard. Casted sorc spells with somatic component in light armor with no ASF. I also made sure that I tried this with spells not on bard list, ie acid spray/shield. Not getting into the should it/did it/will it work discussion, but it does work as of yesterday.

There was a part 2 to the OP's question that hasn't really been discussed much, and that is regarding usage of divine wands. I had previously been of the opinion that you needed to have the caster level required for using wands with no UMD check, and that it was your level of the required caster class in a multi-class build which determined which wands you can use without a UMD check. I have recently come to belive that it is your total level that the computer uses to determine if you meet the level requirement, not just your caster level. This might not really matter much to level 20 toons with UMD skills, but it would make leveling significantly easier having access to level appropriate divine wands/scrolls on a non divine type with a one level splash.

I am hoping that this applies to my WF Barb. I am currently planning on taking my next (8th) level of Wiz so that I will be able to use Repair Crit Wands. If it is not true, then I will not be able to use the wand, which has a requirement of Wiz, Sorc 7 to use. Has anyone out there done this who can confirm whether this is viable currently? Really would like input from someone who has current game experience with this subject matter, not looking to start another arguement based on speculation, past (mod 1-8) experience, or opinions as to whether that too is or isn't a bug.

[whysper]

There was a part 2 to the OP's question that hasn't really been discussed much, and that is regarding usage of divine wands. I had previously been of the opinion that you needed to have the caster level required for using wands with no UMD check, and that it was your level of the required caster class in a multi-class build which determined which wands you can use without a UMD check. I have recently come to belive that it is your total level that the computer uses to determine if you meet the level requirement, not just your caster level. This might not really matter much to level 20 toons with UMD skills, but it would make leveling significantly easier having access to level appropriate divine wands/scrolls on a non divine type with a one level splash.

I am hoping that this applies to my WF Barb. I am currently planning on taking my next (8th) level of Wiz so that I will be able to use Repair Crit Wands. If it is not true, then I will not be able to use the wand, which has a requirement of Wiz, Sorc 7 to use. Has anyone out there done this who can confirm whether this is viable currently? Really would like input from someone who has current game experience with this subject matter, not looking to start another arguement based on speculation, past (mod 1-8) experience, or opinions as to whether that too is or isn't a bug.

The reason there was not much discussion is because that part is considered - recently wrongly - to be common knowledge.

Provided that your character level is greater than or equal to the Minimum Level of the wand, you can use any wand when the spell is in the spell list of any of your classes, regardless of the spell level and the number of levels you have in that class.

This does not apply to scrolls.

[clanqui]

As far as PnP goes. Bard/Sorcs should suffer ASF for any sorc spell that is not also a bard spell. 100% no ambiguity.

Per the 3.5 SRD,

A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

Bolded bit mine. This used to work properly. I can rememember testing this as far back as beta. If it does not work properly now, I would expect it to get fixed.