Bard/Wizard?

[Calebro]

A Halfling 1bard/2rogue/17wiz with the dragonmarks would be an extremely versatile toon. At the low levels, the no fail wand usage would be a great boon to the group, as would a feeble song if no other bard was around.

A while back I rolled a 1bard/xsorc. The armored caster portion carried over from bard to sorc spoells as well. This was NOT w.a.i. and may have been fixed since then, but if it hasn't it would allow for light armor as well. This would save SP from mage armor spell being unneeded with master's touch. This alone would be enough to survive quite well in the low levels.

Eventually that bard level would become obsolete when your umd gets high enough and the lack of enhancements to your songs makes it worthless. This is when it would be time for a +1 Lesser Reincarnate to remove that bard level.

Basically, what I'm saying is that you'd eventually outlive the usefulness of that bard level, but in the time that it was there, it would have been quite useful.

[gavagai]

Just checked on some old threads, and it seems like the bard ASF benefit does spread to other casters' spells. I'd consider that a bug (like KOTC Paladins getting extra damage v. undead) which may or may not be fixed at some point. But that's a good observation... I'll have to play around with that. >8']

Still again, though, the same trade off between low-level convenience and high-end potential. Light armor isn't really helping a wizard's (or bard's) survivability much past level 10, when effective AC becomes hard to achieve; and by then you should have all the Stoneskins and Displacements you need.

[ddoer]

while halfling dragonmarks does enable you to self-heal, i don't think it is a good option because of the cost of 3 feats and an inventory page. (lack of str is another issue but relatively insignificant) If in the next update, they roll out a Pale Master PrE with Undead forms that is worthwhile to consider, which feats you'll give up to swap for Spell focus:necromancy and Greater Spell Focus:Necromancy and Toughness/Mental Toughness?

After reading all the post, I still don't understand why anyone would consider a bard level to use CLW. CSW pots heal more than CLW and won't consume your mana!

wiz doesn't use light armor and shield. (except in the case you do shield blocking) the armor is not a big deal, you just loss fortification for not using robe. but for shield, it used up a weapon slot that could be used for potency (or equivalent), lore or spell focus, and will weaken your spell.

[Calebro]

while halfling dragonmarks does enable you to self-heal, i don't think it is a good option because of the cost of 3 feats and an inventory page. And a Wiz has feats to spare. How exactly does it cost you an inventory page? (lack of str is another issue but relatively insignificant) If in the next update, they roll out a Pale Master PrE with Undead forms that is worthwhile to consider, which feats you'll give up to swap for Spell focus:necromancy and Greater Spell Focus:Necromancy and Toughness/Mental Toughness?

After reading all the post, I still don't understand why anyone would consider a bard level to use CLW. CSW pots heal more than CLW and won't consume your mana!
The bard level wouldn't be for CLW, but for stealth class skills, UMD, cure WANDS and other small favors. These things would be extremely usefull at low levels, but would need to be retrained eventually (when that option goes live).
wiz doesn't use light armor and shield. (except in the case you do shield blocking) the armor is not a big deal, you just loss fortification for not using robe. but for shield, it used up a weapon slot that could be used for potency (or equivalent), lore or spell focus, and will weaken your spell.

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that it's not an option.
And for the record, I was talking about the shield spell, not a shield, although that would be an option as well.

Hitting the harbor, market (heck, even most of the houses) with trap skills, cure wands, a weak bard song, light armor with no AFS, and a few arcane buffs.... wouldn't be bad at all.

Like I said, eventually you'll outgrow that bard level, but in those lower levels it would be really helpful in a few different ways.

Definitely not for everyone though, and you might have some issues finding a decent group, but it would surely be a fun toon to play for a while.
Once the novelty of that bard levels had worn off and your UMD raised a bit, time to get rid of it.

[Gadget2775]

1 Level of Bard current elliminates all ASF from Wiz spells. It's debatable wether or not this is WIA or a bug.

[Major_Woody]

I dont think its a bug - I know Sorc/Bard combos that have been playing the toon for over two years.

http://www.mmotricks.com/forums2/dun...ing-guide.html

[Calebro]

I personally think it's a bug that they're having a hard time figuring out how to code properly.
I assume that they're attempting to follow PnP rules, as they do whenever they can, which means it probably isn't WAI.
However, I suspect that the problem lies in the fact that Bard removes ASF for arcane spells in light armor, but can't differentiate between bard spells and wiz/sorc spells, as they're all arcane.
The only feasible way to fix the problem that I can think of would be to re-code every bard spell as a third *type* of spell, not arcane or divine, and remove ASF in light armor for those types of spells.
The fact that bard spells aren't actually a third type of spell, but in reality arcane spells makes this type of fix not only extremely code heavy for a change, but also not in spirit with the PnP rules that they try to emulate whenever possible.

[Inspire]

19Wizard/1Bard is a decent choice for a halfling with dragonmarks as that combo allows the Empower Healing feat for your greater dragonmarks(also least and lesser, although maximize and regular empower work with those), full access to UMD, and CLW which you can max/empower/empower heal.

Although this would be a build which is still lesser to a warforged caster in terms of self healing IMO, but nice for parties with minimal healing.

[dread333]

Ok so I have played a Sorc with one level of Bard for 2 years...there is no arcane spell failure...there is no roll for spell failure...

If you will see the DDO Manual located at the following site you will see that it on the Bard page it says "Spellcasting: Arcane (Charisma-based, armor-related chance of arcane spell failure is ignored; no need for
preparation; start with 1 spell)."

http://content.turbine.com/sites/www...ddo_manual.pdf

I love this build, with the +5 mith breatplate from Hound and a light shield I have a 36 AC, unbuffed.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion, yes you have trade offs, but for me the ability to use heal wands, without worrying about UMD, and the ability to wear armor makes up for this.

[Uska]

Ok so I have played a Sorc with one level of Bard for 2 years...there is no arcane spell failure...there is no roll for spell failure...

If you will see the DDO Manual located at the following site you will see that it on the Bard page it says "Spellcasting: Arcane (Charisma-based, armor-related chance of arcane spell failure is ignored; no need for
preparation; start with 1 spell)."

http://content.turbine.com/sites/www...ddo_manual.pdf

I love this build, with the +5 mith breatplate from Hound and a light shield I have a 36 AC, unbuffed.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion, yes you have trade offs, but for me the ability to use heal wands, without worrying about UMD, and the ability to wear armor makes up for this.

starting around lvl 10 ac 36 might as well be 0

[dread333]

starting around lvl 10 ac 36 might as well be 0

prove it

[ddoer]

starting around lvl 10 ac 36 might as well be 0

prove it

AC 36 could be good enough when you run low level quests. someone has posted a rough AC per quest level reference that I generally agree with:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...62#post2682362

There are a few problem to make a bard-splash for AC

• it's very costly to get high enough AC when you are in higher level
• you have other (better) ways to avoid damage other than rely on AC. For a melee type, you can't avoid stay in front of the enemies and you will be hit repeatedly that make AC more important. But for caster, you could just running and jumping in circle to avoid hits, that cost nth. And displacement and stoneskin are cheap.
• when you try to maintain your AC, you use up your gear slots that potentially could be use to boost your spell effectiveness/damage. e.g. when you use a shield, you skip a weapon slot for spell focus/lore/potency, if you use an armor bracer, you give up spell focus bracer.

the most viable caster AC build, imho, is dex-based monk splash. And I could tell you it is very tough for it to get high AC without seriously weakening its spell casting.

19Wizard/1Bard is a decent choice for a halfling with dragonmarks as that combo allows the Empower Healing feat for your greater dragonmarks(also least and lesser, although maximize and regular empower work with those), full access to UMD, and CLW which you can max/empower/empower heal.

nice. 4 feats. if you use 2 gear slots for the ToD set, you could get 2 more heal clickies. it will be even better to get enough UMD and fully invest in wands and scroll mastery and tell your party your are a arcane healer!

btw, how much SP max/emp/emp-healing CLW cost?

And a Wiz has feats to spare. How exactly does it cost you an inventory page?

...

Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean that it's not an option.
And for the record, I was talking about the shield spell, not a shield, although that would be an option as well.

Hitting the harbor, market (heck, even most of the houses) with trap skills, cure wands, a weak bard song, light armor with no AFS, and a few arcane buffs.... wouldn't be bad at all.

re. halfling, roll one and try it by yourself, or read:
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Race:Halfling

Wiz has Shield spell already. So you need a shorter duration one or you don't have enough spell slot to load Shield in your Wiz spell book?

what exactly are the benefit of bard-splash in compare to rog? CLW is useless as there are CSW pots. AC is meaningless to wiz in general, and by using light armor, you can't quickly swap robes.

so the whole plan is roll a bard 1 and then reincarnate in end game?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

1 Level of Bard current elliminates all ASF from Wiz spells. It's debatable wether or not this is WIA or a bug.

It's DEFINATELY a bug. It breaks the behavior allowed in the D&D rules plus is not consistant with other MC abilities in this game.

I dont think its a bug - I know Sorc/Bard combos that have been playing the toon for over two years.

Turbine has nerfed such situations in the past without warning. Ask founders about "batman" builds (evasion working with heavy armor because of a similar cross class bug) that were valid for about a year before being rendered as mules. Heck, in that case the devs even offiically endorsed the bug as an acceptable change from PnP and STILL killed it later realizing it was a mistake.

[Calebro]

1. re. halfling, roll one and try it by yourself, or read:
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Race:Halfling

2. Wiz has Shield spell already. So you need a shorter duration one or you don't have enough spell slot to load Shield in your Wiz spell book?

3. what exactly are the benefit of bard-splash in compare to rog? CLW is useless as there are CSW pots. AC is meaningless to wiz in general, and by using light armor, you can't quickly swap robes.

4. so the whole plan is roll a bard 1 and then reincarnate in end game?

1. Yes, I know what a halfling is. I almost exclusively play halfers or warforged. I was waiting for you to explain how having 3/4 carrying capacity cost you an entire inventory page. As a wiz, the **** you're carrying doesn't weight much. You can easily fill your inventory, even at 3/4 weight limit.

2. Yes, wiz gets shield already. That was kind of MY POINT! Use it!

3. Read the OP again. We were trying to provide somewhat helpful possible options for what he/she had in mind.

4. If the bard splash was used, then yes.

*edit:
And you're only seeing what you want to see.
I've already answered the CLW/pots question.

*edit 2:
Look, I'm not saying that this is something that everyone would/should do. I'm not even saying *I* would do it.
What I'm saying is that the bard level, at low levels, would greatly help your survivability.
The OP asked if CLW was enough of a reason to splash bard. CLW in and of itself is not.
But some of the other things you'd get from bard might make it worth it (to the right person) for a while.

Consider:
1. Rogue 1. Starting like a standard build.
2. Wiz 1. Continuing the standard build.
3. Bard 1. You now have songs, equal to a BaB +1 for all purposes. More skills. Better saves. Wand usage. Better AC via no ASF in light armor. More survivable.
Throw on some armor, sing a song, cast shield, grab a sword and jump in the fray. Wand whip if needed. Save your SP for when you need them.
4. Wiz 2. Continue the path, but act more like a casting rogue or a bard with more SP. Buffs and the occasional CC.
5. Wiz 3.
6. Wiz 4.
7. Wiz 5.
8. Wiz 6.
9. Wiz 7.
You now have sufficient power via FW/Stoneskin, and your UMD is raising enough that you probably don't need that wand usage (or the armor, or the song) quite as much anymore.
10. Rogue 2 / Lesser Reincarnate that Bard level into Wiz 8. Fall into the caster role now.
11+ Continue the regular path.

I can see this working VERY well in the right hands.

[Anderei]

I
The only feasible way to fix the problem that I can think of would be to re-code every bard spell as a third *type* of spell, not arcane or divine, and remove ASF in light armor for those types of spells.
The fact that bard spells aren't actually a third type of spell, but in reality arcane spells makes this type of fix not only extremely code heavy for a change, but also not in spirit with the PnP rules that they try to emulate whenever possible.

Its quite simple actually, a bard needs to pick its spell like a sorcerer, so if you cast an arcane spell with light armor, take a look if that toon picked that spell in a bard level, if yes -> no ASF, if no -> ASF

[ddoer]

1. Yes, I know what a halfling is. I almost exclusively play halfers or warforged. I was waiting for you to explain how having 3/4 carrying capacity cost you an entire inventory page. As a wiz, the **** you're carrying doesn't weight much. You can easily fill your inventory, even at 3/4 weight limit.

So, do you know in DDO, when your WF get 4 pages of inventory space, your halfling get only 3? The good news is, when you get 150 coin lords favor, any class could get one more inventory page, so the difference in percentage is reduced.

btw, you get favor by completing quests, elite level gives you more favor than hard, to start a quest, you first need to talk to quest giver and then go to the quest entrace ... ...

Consider:
1. Rogue 1. Starting like a standard build.
2. Wiz 1. Continuing the standard build.
3. Bard 1. You now have songs, equal to a BaB +1 for all purposes. More skills. Better saves. Wand usage. Better AC via no ASF in light armor. More survivable.
Throw on some armor, sing a song, cast shield, grab a sword and jump in the fray. Wand whip if needed. Save your SP for when you need them.
4. Wiz 2. Continue the path, but act more like a casting rogue or a bard with more SP. Buffs and the occasional CC.
5. Wiz 3.
6. Wiz 4.
7. Wiz 5.
8. Wiz 6.
9. Wiz 7.
You now have sufficient power via FW/Stoneskin, and your UMD is raising enough that you probably don't need that wand usage (or the armor, or the song) quite as much anymore.
10. Rogue 2 / Lesser Reincarnate that Bard level into Wiz 8. Fall into the caster role now.
11+ Continue the regular path.

I can see this working VERY well in the right hands.

wiz7/rog1/bard1 is an example of gimp'd build. you could make it work and get a lot of fun to play a gimp'd build. The degree of achievement in playing a gimp'd build successfully is probably much higher than normal build. but in planning, there is no reason to plan a gimp'd build and then plan to fix it with reincarnation.

[honkuimushi]

So, do you know in DDO, when your WF get 4 pages of inventory space, your halfling get only 3? The good news is, when you get 150 coin lords favor, any class could get one more inventory page, so the difference in percentage is reduced.

You are misinformed about this. Halflings get the same number of inventory slots as any other race. What is different it that their weight thresholds are 3/4 of other races. This combined with their Str penalty can make being overloaded an issue.

[dread333]

[QUOTE=Lorien_the_First_One;2706454]It's DEFINATELY a bug. It breaks the behavior allowed in the D&D rules plus is not consistant with other MC abilities in this game.

No it is not a bug...the manual says "arcane spell-failure is IGNORED" for Bards, as for the AC question that's up for debate, my experience is that my toon is less squishy and I enjoy the benifits of good raid armor, in the end just about any build can be played well, or badly, I've seen far more bizzare builds than a caster with a splash of bard,

[Anneliese]

No it is not a bug...the manual says "arcane spell-failure is IGNORED" for Bards, as for the AC question that's up for debate, my experience is that my toon is less squishy and I enjoy the benifits of good raid armor, in the end just about any build can be played well, or badly, I've seen far more bizzare builds than a caster with a splash of bard,

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Thats from the official rules. If it does not work that way currently in DDO, then it is not working as intended and will be fixed in the next weeks/months/years.

[Calebro]

Its quite simple actually, a bard needs to pick its spell like a sorcerer, so if you cast an arcane spell with light armor, take a look if that toon picked that spell in a bard level, if yes -> no ASF, if no -> ASF

Yes, but if it really were *that* simple then it would have been fixed a long time ago, I should think. The fact that it remains makes me (as a non-programmer) think it's a more complex coding issue than this.

So, do you know in DDO, when your WF get 4 pages of inventory space, your halfling get only 3? The good news is, when you get 150 coin lords favor, any class could get one more inventory page, so the difference in percentage is reduced.

btw, you get favor by completing quests, elite level gives you more favor than hard, to start a quest, you first need to talk to quest giver and then go to the quest entrace ... ...

wiz7/rog1/bard1 is an example of gimp'd build. you could make it work and get a lot of fun to play a gimp'd build. The degree of achievement in playing a gimp'd build successfully is probably much higher than normal build. but in planning, there is no reason to plan a gimp'd build and then plan to fix it with reincarnation.

You do know that even that WF starts with 3 inv slots, right?
75 Coin Lords favor gives the 4th slot to everyone. 150 gets the ability to make a fifth.
This is true for everyone.
The difference is not reduced.
There is no difference.
If you're going to be condescending you should at least get your facts straight first.

Again, I'm not saying I would do it. I'm saying that for what the OP originally asked for, this would be an option.
And adding 1 level of any class in order to gain no fail wand usage (even temporarily) definitely doesn't gimp your build as much as you're attempting to make it sound.
Also, you conveniently chose the level immediately prior to the planned LR to say how gimp it is, proving exactly why the following level gets that LR in the first place. It wasn't gimped, it was planned.
There's a difference.

I'll repeat once more, since you ignored something important that I've stated within a post to suit your needs a second time:
I'm not saying that I would do it, but just because YOU wouldn't do it doesn't mean that it's not an OPTION!