No one wants to play with me? A Bumbling First Post on These Forums...

[taurean430]

I am very new to these forums...

Wait, let me say that again:

I am very new to these forums.

That said I really hope to get some help and advice and not flamed into next week. I've been playing this game for about 3 weeks now. As a new player, I've taken the time to read the in game tutorials, and am playing in Kyber. I've tried searching online for answers to the myriad of questions that I have, and been hit with more acronyms than I can process. In my search for answers as to why it is that people won't party up with me, I've found these threads; and as such, my first post here. I didn't want to post all this in the Fighter/Wizard thread as it seemed like hijacking. So here I am full of questions. Please try to be kind...

I want to make a dual classed Elven precision fighter/wizard. My Character, Evandus is a Multiclassed 3/3 of this build. The idea was to have a specialist that can take on mobs with either a flurry of limited spell induced mayhem/ Or out manuvering enemies, and circling in and finishing them off.

Evandus:

1. Fights with two longswords
2. Just got access to level two spells and is enjoying the use of the scare spell.
3. Seems to do exceptionally well fighting large groups of monsters to date (have only faced Kobolds and Orcs so far), though still falls victim to fear now and then, ( **** those kobold shamans).

I'll shorten this as it could easily run out of control with content. But I am really disappointed in the rudeness of players who I have invited or asked via the chat function to join up with. I didn't think my choice of character was that bad; but the responses I am getting seem to point that way.

I'm looking for help to make this character better, as it's the only one I play. I haven't seen any great items up for grabs that I can afford at the auctions, but here is what I am using. I hope someone could be kind enough to let me know what it is I am doing wrong apparently?

Stats:

Strength: 14
Dexterity: 20
Constitution: 11
Intelligence: 20
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 9



Gear Used: (2) +3 Longswords, Pillar of Light, Darkweave light armor (0% casting penalty) and many back up weapons/and such..

I could go into tons more detail if someone is willing to walk with me through this. I mean, I am liking this character, and don't like having multiples. I've spent money on getting tomes, and also thought I did a fair job the first time out working this guy up.

I should mention that I haven't played D&D since like age 16, which was like 21 years ago if that helps to explain my broad based ignorance.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Well, here's the base issue:
If you go mostly the rest fighter (or even much more at all) you'll be missing out on much-wanted endgame spells, as well as suffer when you run into creatures with Spell Resistance.
If you go the rest wizard, you'll be fairly squishy when you try to melee, but should still be okay at spellcasting, more or less.
At your current level, you're basically on-par with a rogue when it comes to combat survivability, though lower in the damage, but with some spells to help out.

Another thing, with your dex much higher than your strength, you might want to look into taking Weapon Finesse and using Rapiers/Light weapons. I also hope you took Two Weapon Fighting and are planning on taking the rest of the TWF feats, since you're using two weapons.

And finally, a +1 (elemental) weapon would be better than a +3 in most situations. It outputs more damage, though will hit slightly less. If you can snag a +2 or +3 (elemental (IE, Flaming, Shocking, Frost, etc.)) so much the better. Or a Pure Good weapon is excellent, too, as the vast majority of the monsters will be affected by it.

[taurean430]

Well, here's the base issue:
If you go mostly the rest fighter (or even much more at all) you'll be missing out on much-wanted endgame spells, as well as suffer when you run into creatures with Spell Resistance.
If you go the rest wizard, you'll be fairly squishy when you try to melee, but should still be okay at spellcasting, more or less.
At your current level, you're basically on-par with a rogue when it comes to combat survivability, though lower in the damage, but with some spells to help out.

Another thing, with your dex much higher than your strength, you might want to look into taking Weapon Finesse and using Rapiers/Light weapons. I also hope you took Two Weapon Fighting and are planning on taking the rest of the TWF feats, since you're using two weapons.

And finally, a +1 (elemental) weapon would be better than a +3 in most situations. It outputs more damage, though will hit slightly less. If you can snag a +2 or +3 (elemental (IE, Flaming, Shocking, Frost, etc.)) so much the better. Or a Pure Good weapon is excellent, too, as the vast majority of the monsters will be affected by it.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for responding, and being nice. I've been pretty disheartened by responses to my questions via the in game chat feature.

I'll try to provide responses to your questions:

I thought that by going fighter, and taking it to at most level 5, I would retain some better hitpoints and head bashing ability. I've noticed that the max level cap appears to be 20, so a 10th level wizard wouldn't be much help to a party of level 20 players. I thought taking it to level 14 or 15 in Wizard would still give me access to helpful spells?

I thought the Weapon Finesse feat worked with longswords? Did I get that wrong? I do have Two Weapon Fighting as well as I thought making a Ginsu Machine would be fun. And yes, I don't do a huge amount of damage, but hit people most of the time all 5 times in attacking.

I'm trying to use the Auction to get decent weapons. The +3 longswords I got from the ddo store after becoming frustrated at the prices in the pawn section. Who has that much in game money? I sure don't. But I have a bid on what appears to be a reasonably priced +1 Thundering Longsword of Tendon Slice. I'm grinding the Catacombs quests to try and get more in game money. I also am sad that I can't put to auction over 3/4 of the things I find and get for rewards that I cannot use. Still trying to learn why...

My feats of note read:

Attack
Defensive Fighting
Dismiss Charm
Dodge
Elven Keen Senses
Enchantment Save Bonus
Light Armor Proficiency
Heroic Durability
Immune to Sleep
Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

[RioRussell]

Hello taurean,
The risk of multiclassing too deply into two classes is you have a tendency to end up exceptional at neither the higher level you get. A good example is a 10 fighter / 10 wizard. You won't have any of the higher level powerful spells of a wizard, and your to-hit and damage potential will be sub par enough to be a detriment. A better class split would be 2 fighter / 18 wizard, but in general my advice to new players is to play a pure fighter and then a pure wizard, and decide if you would like to melee or cast spells, and then make a multiclass build with that specific purpose in mind.

As for your current build, Symar gave you good advice. With a high dex, switch away from strength based weapons like longswords and switch to rapiers and pick up the weapon precision feat (if you are wielding two longswords you are looking at a -7 to hit compared to using a rapier/shortsword combo) . add elf rapier enhancements and the two weapon fighting feat, but be prepared to switch to a single rapier and a shield if you are getting hit alot or having a hard time hitting. Pick up will save based crowd control (hypnotize) and extended blur to mitigate damage. Charm works great as well at low levels, get good at charming mob tanks before battle starts, letting them fight it out, and then releasing them gradually.

hope this helps-
rio

[Wyrmnax]

You came to the forums to advice. That is a very good step, it shows that you actually want to learn.

I will try to not be offensive, but as you want to learn, i will have to point your mistakes. It might be a bit rough, but please try to get over it - its for your own good. Also, since i am trying to explain you what is going on, it will be a quite big text.

Your character plan is, frankly, not good. I could try to make it nicer, to make what i have to say more flowery, but i prefer to hit the main point straight away, as clearly as possible - Your character plan is not good.

Why?

- DDO is designed with the idea that players have characters that are somewhat optimized. Especially at higher levels. While something you have made might work well enough at lower levels, it can struggle to the point that it is simply too weak of a concept to be used in the higher levels of the game.

- This is the main point - Your multiclass split left you on a point where you are not a good caster, and you are not a good fighter. This character is never going to be a great caster or a great fighter at higher levels. There is just too much investment on fighter for it to make a great caster at higher levels, and too much investment on wizard to make it a good fighter at higher levels.

Multiclassing is very tricky on DDO. While everyone can see what you are winning, most new people dont see what they are loosing by multiclassing.

In your case specifically:
At Character level 6 ( From now on, CL6 ) you should be getting:
As a full wizard:
Haste ( best melee buff in the game )
Over double your SP pool ( so over double spells cast )
1 level away from firewall ( one of the best damage spells on the game )

As a pure fighter, you would be getting:
+ 2 Attack bonus
2 extra fighter feats
Improved two weapon fighting
Kensai
At least +1 AC from using a full plate

This is at this level. at CL20, you are loosing acess to a lot of other stuff. Just to give you a couple examples, Kensai 3 and Fighter capstone are about 15% increase in your damage, and you gave up acess to them already.

So your multiclass choice isnt very good. It really should be written on the tutorial: You should not multiclass unless you know what you are gaining and loosing from it

This is the main point because it is very important. Just looking at your class shows people that either you dont really know what you are doing, or are doing something crazy different, that might work or might not. If you are fairly experienced you can make a fighting wizard work, but you must really understand what you are doing and how the game works.

Inside this there is one other aggravant - You really require 2 different main atributes for your classes ( STR for to hit and damage, and INT for spell DCs), and you really can only afford to have 1 main. Besides that, there is CON, wich every character in the game should have some, and DEX for two weapon fighting feats at least. Your character suffer from a problem that is commonly called MAD ( Multiple Atribute Dependency ).

Then, there are a few other points that are also important.

- You decided to make a finesse fighter. Ok, thats not a really usual decision, but it might work if you know what you are working with. Your main problems here is that your weapons do not help you. Longswords Attack and Damage is affected by Strength, and you are raising your Dexterity. This means that both your damage and your to-hit will be subpar to a Strenght Fighter.

If you had choosen a weapon that can make use of the feat weapon finesse, this effect could be lessened. By using that feat, you would use your Dex bonus on the attack rolls - since your dex is high you should have no problems here. You would still be using your Strenght on bonus damage, and that would still put you behind Strenght fighters on damage. But you could work it out by having a advantage somewhere else.

Besides that, your melee class choice really isnt synergistic with a Precision Fighter. Fighter gives you Heavy Armor, and bonuses to Strenght on enhancements and prestige enhancements.

To sum it up:
- The main reason you are getting flak is that you are not a adittion to a party that is either as good as a Fighter at this level, nor one that is as good as a Wizard. - You lack comparable damage to a Fighter, due to your choice of weapons, your fighting style and having wizard levels slowing your progress to your level 6 enhancements.
- You do not compare to a Wizard at this level simply because you lack Haste - wich is arguably the best buff in the game. On the next level, you will not have firewall, putting a wizard further ahead.


My suggestion might sound a bit harsh, but you should take some time to consider it:

Roll a single class character. That way you will understand what classes are capable off before trying to mix them up.
- If you want a precision fighter, make a Rogue. Seriuosly, its one of the best precision fighters in the game. Dont be stuck with the mentality that a rogue is only good for traps, much the opposite - a Rogue is mostly a Damage Dealer, and its one of the best melee damages in the game. Just make sure you use a weapon that is finesseable.
- If you want a caster, make a Wizard. It will take a bit of time for him to feel really useful, but once you do, its amazing what you can pull off. Just keep in mind that you are better off buffing your allies instead of trying to do direct damage, at least until you get firewall.

EDIT: Im sorry if this went off a bit more offensive than i intended, its already pretty late. But im trying to explain to you why you get the feeling that people are looking at your character and not seeing a effective one.

EDIT2: You got some pretty good advice on how to make your character workable from other posts in this thread. If you dont want to reroll, use them. PArticularly, the advice to get to WIZ5 to have acess to Haste and Displacement, and from that point onwards making a full fighter can be a fairly effective.

EDIT3: Your longswords do not work with weapon finesse. But you do have acess to weapons that do. Some of the best would be Rapiers and Kukris.

[RioRussell]

My feats of note read:

Attack
Defensive Fighting
Dismiss Charm
Dodge
Elven Keen Senses
Enchantment Save Bonus
Light Armor Proficiency
Heroic Durability
Immune to Sleep
Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Let me give you a little more advice. very soon (if not already) you'll find that your armor class won't give you any more protection. It won't be advancing high enough for you to keep up with the monster to-hit when you get to the 7-9 level quest range. So the dodge and two weapon defense aren't really the most effective feats for you the higher level you get. Here's what I would do instead. Take your wizard level to 5. This gets you access to two great level 3 spells: displacement (monsters have 50% miss chance) and haste. drop dodge in favor of Mental Toughness (you'll need every spell point you can get with only 5 wizard levels). Drop two weapon defense in favor of toughness. Add in all the hitpoint enhancements (30 extra hitpoints for only 4 action points). Note you won't be a main tank, so don't advertise yourself as one. Make sure you have extend spell to keep your buffs up, and use web / blur as your level 2 spells.

rio

[taurean430]

Okay...

Thank you all for responding. And no, there are no responses in this thread that would qualify as being harsh. My thanks for that.

It seems that I have some corrections to do with my build. It appears that the Feats are not matching up well with the intent of taking them.

I am thinking though of stopping the leveling in Fighter and continuing with the Wizard levels; that along with switching weapons as the longswords aren't helping me as intended. Perhaps Rapiers? idk...

Is there a list of what spells the game gives Wizards as they progress in level? That may help more than anything in my choices.

I can also see that the way the online version is set up is very different from my pen and pencil days Fighter/Mages were something to fear, not laugh at

[Xyfiel]

Your build is very playable if you like that playstyle, don't let anyone here tell you it isn't. There are quite a few high end players with gish builds. You do need to make some adjustments though.

1) Elfs get rapier enhancements, take them, and equip 2 rapiers. This will increase your to hit and damage. Longswords don't work with finesse. You should see a large increase in to hit.
2) Change any slashing feats to peircing to synergize with rapiers.
3) Take 2 rogue or monk for evasion, you already have a high dex. I would suggest monk here if you are lawful. If not take rogue, but know you would be best to take it at level 1, and may choose to reroll to do that and get trap skills from it.
4) Make a plan for level 20. 2 rogue for traps, evasion, and umd is nice. Fighter is good at 6 or 12, pick one. Then go 6 or 12 wizard. You won't be casting spells with dc's, but you can still buff and nuke ok. If you can get enough ac, expertise and tensers can work, but most people will advise against it.
5) Make sure you get the toughness feat and every enhancement you can for it.

I may think of others later, but that will give you a playable character at end game. My main is closing in on 13wiz/6rogue/1fighter(may reincarnate and change the levels), 65+ ac, displacement, 400 hps, gtwf, standing in you own firewall.

[Angelus_dead]

I'll shorten this as it could easily run out of control with content. But I am really disappointed in the rudeness of players who I have invited or asked via the chat function to join up with. I didn't think my choice of character was that bad; but the responses I am getting seem to point that way.

About getting people:
You can find someone to help you out if you do it right. Just compose an LFM message saying "I'm new, help tell me about good characters". Then when someone joins, and this is important, you close the LFM and don't add more. Don't get yourself outnumbered. You can ask either for a high or low level character. There are plenty of experienced players who are sitting around fairly bored (waiting for something to happen), and some of them will be happy to chat with you in-game.

1. Fights with two longswords

That's an obvious problem, although not a big one.
a. Longswords are an inferior weapon compared to rapier or scimitar. (Or kukri and pick as well)
b. A longsword in your left hand is a mistake unless you have the OTWF feat (which is a poor feat choice at low level)

I want to make a dual classed Elven precision fighter/wizard. My Character, Evandus is a Multiclassed 3/3 of this build. The idea was to have a specialist that can take on mobs with either a flurry of limited spell induced mayhem

This is a bigger problem: a character like that does not work in DDO, or in the D&D 3.5 edition rules that it was based in.

Some older AD&D versions had Fighter/MagicUser as a sensible character, but that isn't the case now. The most you might do is wiz18/fig2 to learn a few weapons and bonus feats. But in D&D, going into a level X quest and casting the spells of a level X/2 wizard is not going to be really helpful. You might temporarily get the impression they're useful at first, but that's because you're using only X-3 for a bit. As time goes on your spells will advance half as fast as real casters, leaving you further and further behind.

[hydra_ex]

Leaving you further and further behind.

And remember, that's on top of the fact that it takes an experienced and relatively well geared out caster as it is to be useful in many endgame quests.

[taurean430]

Your build is very playable if you like that playstyle, don't let anyone here tell you it isn't. There are quite a few high end players with gish builds. You do need to make some adjustments though.

1) Elfs get rapier enhancements, take them, and equip 2 rapiers. This will increase your to hit and damage. Longswords don't work with finesse. You should see a large increase in to hit.
2) Change any slashing feats to peircing to synergize with rapiers.
3) Take 2 rogue or monk for evasion, you already have a high dex. I would suggest monk here if you are lawful. If not take rogue, but know you would be best to take it at level 1, and may choose to reroll to do that and get trap skills from it.
4) Make a plan for level 20. 2 rogue for traps, evasion, and umd is nice. Fighter is good at 6 or 12, pick one. Then go 6 or 12 wizard. You won't be casting spells with dc's, but you can still buff and nuke ok. If you can get enough ac, expertise and tensers can work, but most people will advise against it.
5) Make sure you get the toughness feat and every enhancement you can for it.

I may think of others later, but that will give you a playable character at end game. My main is closing in on 13wiz/6rogue/1fighter(may reincarnate and change the levels), 65+ ac, displacement, 400 hps, gtwf, standing in you own firewall.

I got ahold of a dual set of rapiers, and am going to try that out. Thank you kindly for that.
As for redoing my feats, I'll have to build up some coin. It seems I'm a bit short on that end atm. I'll fix it with another trip through the Catacombs.

I'm not sure why I would need evasion though, I'll have to read up on how that works in the game. I figure at this point I will try stopping the advancement in fighter, and going all Wizard? If I do I'll end up as a 17/3. Or as a 16/3/1 with adding rogue for evasion...

[Symar-FangofLloth]

It takes 2 Rogue for evasion (or 2 monk... or like 9 ranger or something crazy).
What Evasion is, if you succeed on a Reflex save you take no damage, instead of half damage that a successful reflex normally gives.

[Angelus_dead]

I got ahold of a dual set of rapiers, and am going to try that out.

For the forseeable future, using a rapier in the left hand will be inferior to any of the following options: kukri, light pick, shortsword, dagger, sickle, light mace, light hammer.

[Vellauno]

I'm not sure why I would need evasion though, I'll have to read up on how that works in the game.

Evasion is probably one of the best abilities in the game, especially for a player with high dex but the reason why is not apparent until you especially experience higher levels.

As a player with very high Dex you are going to have a very good reflex save. Reflex allows you to avoid many traps or spells like fireball. The little known fact (by new players) however is that even if you make your reflex save, you will still take half damage from many spells (like fireball). If you have the evasion feat however, when you make your reflex save you take NO damage (instead of half). This increases your survivability immensely at high level, so much so that many players are willing to sacrifice their capstone enhancement (powerful reward enhancement for staying just one class) just to get that one ability. If a bunch of spellcasters use fireball on you, if you don' have evasion you may make all your reflex saves but will still take half damage from all the spells and likely die. If you have the evasion feat, if you make all your reflex saves you take no damage, laugh at the casters, then proceed to smash their brains in.

There are only 2 ways to get the Evasion feat. 2 levels of rogue or 2 levels of monk. Rogue is the most common choice because it also gives you access to trap skills and Use Magic Device. Monk is for if you want to fight with no armor so that you can use your fists as weapons or more importantly, get your wisdom bonus to AC (I would not suggest you take monk levels until you know the game really well and understand how high your AC needs to be for the wisdom bonus to AC to help you).

[taurean430]

Looks like it will be then:

15 Wizard
2 Rogue
3 Fighter

Thanks for letting me know how important that is.

Do Monks also get evasion at level 2?

[Vellauno]

Looks like it will be then:

15 Wizard
2 Rogue
3 Fighter

Thanks for letting me know how important that is.

Do Monks also get evasion at level 2?

I would high suggest you go either:

2 Rogue/5 Wizard/13 Warrior (If you want a fighter you can give himself very strong magical buffs: Displacement and Haste)

OR

2 Rogue/7 Wizard/11 Warrior (If you want a fighter who can throw out some offensive magic, namely, firewall *a wickedly great offensive spell*).

It is possible to make a melee with some magic abilities, it is not really possible to make a caster with any real melee ability other than priest or favored soul. The reason for this is (especially in the case of wizards and sorcerers) their horrible hit points. If you take mostly wizard or sorcerer levels your hit points will be so low that going to melee is just too dangerous as you will die REALLY easily (but displacement will help a lot).

Now, if you really want a caster who can melee, pick a priest or favoured soul. Don't let their names fool you though, they both can cast some really great offensive spells (like blade barrier) while having great buffs to boot. Also, they both get double the base hit points that wizards or sorcerers do (wizards and sorcerers get base 4 hit points per level while priests and favored souls get 8. Warriors get 10). They can handle the front lines much better because of their higher hit points and ability to heal themselves.

For Priests of Favored souls, 2 Rogue/2 Fighter/16 Priest or Favored soul would work fine.

Or better yet, go pure Bard! A bard warchanter is a lean mean fighting machine with offensive magic, buffs, healing and crowd control spells. You will have very few feats to chose from though so you will want to pick a human likely. Toughness, Extend Spell, (Weapon Focus and Power attack for the prestige class), improved critical are most needed with as much of TWF, ITWF, GTWF as you can (in that order). If you really want, add in two levels of Rogue (1 at level 1, the other after you get the warchater prestige class).

[Xyfiel]

I would high suggest you go either:

2 Rogue/5 Wizard/13 Warrior (If you want a fighter you can give himself very strong magical buffs: Displacement and Haste)

OR

2 Rogue/7 Wizard/11 Warrior (If you want a fighter who can throw out some offensive magic, namely, firewall *a wickedly great offensive spell*).

It is possible to make a melee with some magic abilities, it is not really possible to make a caster with any real melee ability other than priest or favored soul. The reason for this is (especially in the case of wizards and sorcerers) their horrible hit points. If you take mostly wizard or sorcerer levels your hit points will be so low that going to melee is just too dangerous as you will die REALLY easily (but displacement will help a lot).

Now, if you really want a caster who can melee, pick a priest or favoured soul. Don't let their names fool you though, they both can cast some really great offensive spells (like blade barrier) while having great buffs to boot. Also, they both get double the base hit points that wizards or sorcerers do (wizards and sorcerers get base 4 hit points per level while priests and favored souls get 8. Warriors get 10). They can handle the front lines much better because of their higher hit points and ability to heal themselves.

For Priests of Favored souls, 2 Rogue/2 Fighter/16 Priest or Favored soul would work fine.

Or better yet, go pure Bard! A bard warchanter is a lean mean fighting machine with offensive magic, buffs, healing and crowd control spells. You will have very few feats to chose from though so you will want to pick a human likely. Toughness, Extend Spell, (Weapon Focus and Power attack for the prestige class), improved critical are most needed with as much of TWF, ITWF, GTWF as you can (in that order). If you really want, add in two levels of Rogue (1 at level 1, the other after you get the warchater prestige class).

11 warrior misses tier II prestige, not much point going past 6 in that case. It is very possible to make a caster with melee ability. 40 hps difference for a pure wizard and a rogue or warchanter, 2 builds expected to melee. Add in some fighter and rogue levels and that gap is almost non existant. A 12wizard/6fighter/2rogue has similiar damage to warchanter, more hps, more casting ability, and can do traps. The warchanter can buff the party and heal a bit.

[AnarchyJesus]

I'll shorten this as it could easily run out of control with content. But I am really disappointed in the rudeness of players who I have invited or asked via the chat function to join up with. I didn't think my choice of character was that bad; but the responses I am getting seem to point that way.

your problem might not be the build at all, are you using the "o" key to find ppl who are looking for group to invite or putting up a LFM msg?

[whysper]

I think most of the original points have been sufficiently addressed, but perhaps the expectation-setting could be clearer:

In DDO, an arcane melee is gimped, plain and simple. However, gimped does not mean unplayable, nor does it mean unfun - in fact, my 14Sor/3Pal/3Rog-planned character is shaping up to be quite riotous. You do have to keep in mind that you will find slightly less than enthusiastic reception in many PUGs (start your own), and it will be a bit more expensive to play the character than either pure-class would be.

In my opinion, points worth striving for:

* Whatever your ultimate split, emphasise the caster levels, 11Wiz/12Sor minimum.
* Select no-save or utility spells.
* Divine Power clickies.
* Toughness feat(s).
* Do not start with too-high casting stat, 12-14 depending on the rest.
* Try to fit in either Kensai, Tempest or Evasion.

More specific to your current version:

* Finesse is OK, but straight Str route could be better for stat distribution.
* Use Rapiers on elves, axes on dwarves and so on.
* Do not dual-wield heavy weapons at early levels: the difference between a shortsword and rapier in the offhand is...0 points on average, but you take a penalty to hit which you cannot really afford.


Also, at 'only' level 6, I would highly recommend rerolling rather than spending on respecs.

[Aranticus]

OP, i have a 12ftr/8wiz in my template thread called bladesinger. see if you like what you see there