Aryenne the Justifier, a twist on Knight of the Chalice DPS

[maddmatt70]

The megaman music is win.

Well seeing as how you are back Junts what do you think of the 14 paladin 6 monk build compared to this build. That build would likely be a race elf and use whirling strike feat with longswords. The dps is probably only slightly less then this build (5% doublestrike increase with monk 6 stance vs. khopesh, divine might 3 and paladin 3rd tier pre enhancement), but has more utility such as the healing ki and some other basic monk finishers - it also has a higher to hit which is nice for epics.

That 14 paladin 6 monk would seem to fit what I percieve of your playstyle better then this 18 paladin 2 monk build. I currently have a 14 paladin 3 monk elf that I am playing around with and a level 12 (going to be level 20 paladin) human twf khopesh paladin that I am leveling. Both are very interesting the 14 paladin 3 monk character might be the most intense character I have ever played because so much crazy clicking.

[Junts]

Well seeing as how you are back Junts what do you think of the 14 paladin 6 monk build compared to this build. That build would likely be a race elf and use whirling strike feat with longswords. The dps is probably only slightly less then this build (5% doublestrike increase with monk 6 stance vs. khopesh, divine might 3 and paladin 3rd tier pre enhancement), but has more utility such as the healing ki and some other basic monk finishers - it also has a higher to hit which is nice for epics.

That 14 paladin 6 monk would seem to fit what I percieve of your playstyle better then this 18 paladin 2 monk build. I currently have a 14 paladin 3 monk elf that I am playing around with and a level 12 (going to be level 20 paladin) human twf khopesh paladin that I am leveling. Both are very interesting the 14 paladin 3 monk character might be the most intense character I have ever played because so much crazy clicking.

I think that since double strike is less nice to twf than it is to other attack forms, its a less attractive idea than it would have been pre-changes. I could have seen this working out pretty well then, but now that double strike is a bit less attractive, I'm gonna guess that the 5d6 damage (2d6 more from kotc3, 3d6 from set bonus!) per hit from paladin18 is better almost all of the time.

I also think going handwraps (necessary to use healing ki, etc) is a pretty poor choice in present content if you're not a stunner, since you're only at 2x crits and stuff is always held or stunned.

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

[Junts]

Again I can't describe how happy I am about the megaman music.

[Gercho]

I think that since double strike is less nice to twf than it is to other attack forms, its a less attractive idea than it would have been pre-changes. I could have seen this working out pretty well then, but now that double strike is a bit less attractive, I'm gonna guess that the 5d6 damage (2d6 more from kotc3, 3d6 from set bonus!) per hit from paladin18 is better almost all of the time.

I also think going handwraps (necessary to use healing ki, etc) is a pretty poor choice in present content if you're not a stunner, since you're only at 2x crits and stuff is always held or stunned.

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

2 things, one is that the build that matt describes uses longswords not handwraps with the new feat that allows monks to be centered while using them... not sure it changes your point of view about the build, just pointing that out.
The second thing, about the thf build you mention, what would you use the feats you save from thf into? i think you can get the feats and self healing with:

Going human:
3 thf feats, power attack, thoughness, ic: slashing, maximize and quicken, thats the build that i plan to tr into, but if you have a better use for the feats i will like to know it.

[Junts]

2 things, one is that the build that matt describes uses longswords not handwraps with the new feat that allows monks to be centered while using them... not sure it changes your point of view about the build, just pointing that out.
The second thing, about the thf build you mention, what would you use the feats you save from thf into? i think you can get the feats and self healing with:

Going human:
3 thf feats, power attack, thoughness, ic: slashing, maximize and quicken, thats the build that i plan to tr into, but if you have a better use for the feats i will like to know it.

I actually think handwraps might still be better; they are still fairly faster than other attack styles in a baseline

That's a lot of wasted feats to be worse against evil outsiders and get some minor benefits. There's no 2 feat slots in this build with the healing for those, and you only get one back from monk6.

Most of this build's feats, and the required feats, have BAB requirements that make squeezing them into higher level slots very difficult.

Your feat suggestion, for example, will work, but only barely, because you must take both metamagics + imp crit + ithf and gthf all level 6 and later (so those are your 6 9 12 15 18 feats).

Adding more feats with pre-requisites, or BAB requirements (when you want to go lv 1 monk for the sp if possible) really makes it a nightmare with the whirling steel strike. I am not impressed by WSS as a feat unlses you are a 12 kensai build.

[Gercho]

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

My second part was about this, was asking about what will you do with the thf feats in the pure pala build with capstone+healing? ... since it seems you can fit all the thf and self healing anyway, if i would drop the thf line what should i get instead?

[maddmatt70]

I think that since double strike is less nice to twf than it is to other attack forms, its a less attractive idea than it would have been pre-changes. I could have seen this working out pretty well then, but now that double strike is a bit less attractive, I'm gonna guess that the 5d6 damage (2d6 more from kotc3, 3d6 from set bonus!) per hit from paladin18 is better almost all of the time.

I also think going handwraps (necessary to use healing ki, etc) is a pretty poor choice in present content if you're not a stunner, since you're only at 2x crits and stuff is always held or stunned.

I think the more intriguing version will be the pure, no thf feats, epic sos version that gets capstone+healing at the cost of evasion.

Not a fan of thf for the most part. As I stated in other posts my position is that in general the highest dps builds are the way to go whereas you place a higher value on self sufficiency and on self healing then I do. Since my personal pro-dps opinion hence my preference for the twf khopesh level 20 paladin. I had an old 14 paladin 2 monk elf laying around that I thought I would level to 14 paladin 3 monk and do some experimenting with to see if I liked it. It is very interesting to play not sure I like the actual playstyle which is a ton of button mashing perhaps more then a pure monk. I am not sure how quickened maximize compares to the 14 paladin 6 monk setup and your opinion on handwraps is duly noted a guild of mine has a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue that is probably his main (uses handwraps) and it works extremely well.

[Junts]

Not a fan of thf for the most part. As I stated in other posts my position is that in general the highest dps builds are the way to go whereas you place a higher value on self sufficiency and on self healing then I do. Since my personal pro-dps opinion hence my preference for the twf khopesh level 20 paladin. I had an old 14 paladin 2 monk elf laying around that I thought I would level to 14 paladin 3 monk and do some experimenting with to see if I liked it. It is very interesting to play not sure I like the actual playstyle which is a ton of button mashing perhaps more then a pure monk. I am not sure how quickened maximize compares to the 14 paladin 6 monk setup and your opinion on handwraps is duly noted a guild of mine has a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue that is probably his main (uses handwraps) and it works extremely well.

However, since the sidestep change you can make a thf paladin with no feats, make a silver epic sos, and have plenty of feats to -also- heal yourself at pure 20.

Why not do that exactly?

Aryenne hits herself for around 180-230 per csw casting now, at 42% healing amp.

[Khellendros13]

Junts, I was thinking of a pally build based around self healing and healing amp, the evasion and free feats to cover the meta's made sense to me. Just read the whole thread, and it is very much what I was thinking.

I plan to TR my 18/2 Fighter/Rogue to 18/2 Pally /Monk.
I crafted 2x lit2 khopeshes, to tier2 already. I added 30% heal amp to my off hand khopesh, and combined with leviks bracers I scroll heal myself for 171 now. I plan to use Holy Sword/heal amp khopesh for most trash.
Add in the devotion enhancements,heal amp enhancements and ardor pots and it should be very high heal amp.

I saw you had greater devotion 8 on a ring. I plan on using the vendor 3min pots instead, and putting 20% heal amp on the ring instead. Conc op bracers with 45hp, SP goggles with cha skills (swap to tharnes when on the back of raid bosses). If this ends up being troublesome, I might move it to cloak instead and eventually put rad2 or another guard there as a swappable without losing SP.

Ideally guards on DT too along with with GFL.

Very much looking forward to the TR, about 5~ raid completions to go for a cleanser and hopefully Torc, and tomes.

I will probably take Extend early on then swap it for OTWF when I get back to Epics.

Thanks again, and that video was awesome easterwhale

[Junts]

Junts, I was thinking of a pally build based around self healing and healing amp, the evasion and free feats to cover the meta's made sense to me. Just read the whole thread, and it is very much what I was thinking.

I plan to TR my 18/2 Fighter/Rogue to 18/2 Pally /Monk.
I crafted 2x lit2 khopeshes, to tier2 already. I added 30% heal amp to my off hand khopesh, and combined with leviks bracers I scroll heal myself for 171 now. I plan to use Holy Sword/heal amp khopesh for most trash.
Add in the devotion enhancements,heal amp enhancements and ardor pots and it should be very high heal amp.

I saw you had greater devotion 8 on a ring. I plan on using the vendor 3min pots instead, and putting 20% heal amp on the ring instead. Conc op bracers with 45hp, SP goggles with cha skills (swap to tharnes when on the back of raid bosses). If this ends up being troublesome, I might move it to cloak instead and eventually put rad2 or another guard there as a swappable without losing SP.

Ideally guards on DT too along with with GFL.

Very much looking forward to the TR, about 5~ raid completions to go for a cleanser and hopefully Torc, and tomes.

I will probably take Extend early on then swap it for OTWF when I get back to Epics.

Thanks again, and that video was awesome easterwhale

Don't put healing amp on your khopesh: finish your strike (you cant get amp on a strike).

You can get amp on many other slots, and 42% from human 20 and 20 item is more than enough.

I now use the ring + vendor pots, as this post hasn't been updated. I'm too busy playing to do all that work!

I went and did the same run easter did last night for giggles; its interesting how different the two perform due to the guard differences (hes using air + radiance, I have light strike + salt + disintegrate). My healing was much more frenzied, and my completion time was lower, but that is mostly that my gear is otherwise a lot more complete (kotc set bonus, etc). I don't have titans grip though, still .. IQ isn't any fun to farm.

[Dim_Mak]

I took Weapon Focus at LVL6 instead of ITW because i lacked the old school +2 DEX tome. Then i took ITWF adn PA at lvl 9...went to FRED to replace focus with ICS and ...i can't do it..because focus is lower level feat than ICS..am i doomed? what am i supposed to do now?
LR?

update:
i foudn a workaround lol...one nice fella helped me.
i sawpped focus with extend and ill take ICS at 15 instead extedn omg i was like doomed

[Anthios888]

Not a fan of thf for the most part. As I stated in other posts my position is that in general the highest dps builds are the way to go whereas you place a higher value on self sufficiency and on self healing then I do. Since my personal pro-dps opinion hence my preference for the twf khopesh level 20 paladin. I had an old 14 paladin 2 monk elf laying around that I thought I would level to 14 paladin 3 monk and do some experimenting with to see if I liked it. It is very interesting to play not sure I like the actual playstyle which is a ton of button mashing perhaps more then a pure monk. I am not sure how quickened maximize compares to the 14 paladin 6 monk setup and your opinion on handwraps is duly noted a guild of mine has a 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue that is probably his main (uses handwraps) and it works extremely well.

Jaer likes to be able to heal himself (even if he always make me heal him), but DPS is far too important to drop to using longswords. Not only that, but he'd lose more high level spells, mana, etc. I can see the 14/6 build being OK, but that Knight of the Chalice III gives a lot of DPS against evil outsiders. And since it also has the advantage against anything autocrit, I'd much rather take it into my party than the 14/6.

It's basically just taking the 20 paladin version and adding very reliable self-healing from spells (instead of scrolls). The 3d6 weapons of good capstone is unreal uber, but I can see how a lot of players would prefer evasion. This toons hows how to maximize your DPS while still being what a lot of feel paladins should be: self-healers.

P.S. I had this build, I hated it, it was the most horrible thing I have ever played. Not that it couldn't kill things, but I just, I just hated it irrationally. But Jaer likes it. And, it's probably one of his least-gimped toons. So, not every build is going to fit with every player.

[Junts]

I wasn't willing to trade the capstone for etiher evasion or healing, so i basically traded it for both.

I don't think it'd be worth swapping for just one or the other.

If Matt is interested in seeing what happens when you combine THF and healing, he should probably look at Jaerlach instead: at this point that's pretty much a character trading the last smite tier and the kotc enhancements for the ability to buff to 90 ac. THF gives so much more flexibility that making a thf character who doesn't do other things seems really wasteful to me .. the feats end up pretty poorly spent.

[Anthios888]

THF gives so much more flexibility that making a thf character who doesn't do other things seems really wasteful to me .. the feats end up pretty poorly spent.

QFT - at least until they makes greater two handed fighting feats more of an asset for two handed characters, or change current endgame encounters to encourage more pack-o-mobs glancing blow madness. Twitch is just better right now.

[Junts]

Just to make everyone more confused, I've updated the OP to contemporary equipment etc.

I'll add that while I had a hard time getting the healing items together (torc didn't come til I returned from my break, etc), I got extremely lucky with my dps gear and it probably went a long way to my enjoyment. Anthios had the healing gear and none of the DPS gear and was frequently frustrated by the damage output, which I suspect I would have been too if I wasn't pulling my kotc set ring on my 3rd tower and my goggles on my 4th vod and suchlike.

[CaptainFatpants]

P.S. I had this build, I hated it, it was the most horrible thing I have ever played. Not that it couldn't kill things, but I just, I just hated it irrationally.

Generally, I love what you do with your builds. I don't have the time to farm like crazy for Epic stuff or even non-epic stuff so I feel I cannot claim to know what the real end-game feels like right now.

That being said, I love this build. I LR'ed my pure pally into this. She wasn't capped yet, so I didn't have WoG. Right now, she is 17/2. I self-heal very well. I out-DPS most of the random people with whom I group. I am also, apparently, a poor enough player that I appreciate evasion very much.

So, is the problem that good players are not willing to trade 3d6 situational damage for something they don't need (evasion) and two feats for a feat-starved class?

[CaptainFatpants]

This build is one of the better self-healers out there because it's able to fit more devotion enhancements and more healing amplification into its equipment than is typical. Running at 44% incoming healing most of the time, and full paladin devotion, the CSW with maximize alone routinely break 200. With the airship 10% amp buff, I have broken 250. In comparison, my other paladin healer can only afford two tiers of devotion and 1 of human healing amp, and heals for 130-190ish.

I have Paladin Devotion IV, Maximize and Human healing amp 2 with Healing amp 20% on my DT and I cannot hit 200 without quaffing a Greater Ardor pot. Is that how you hit 200 on Aryenne? Or, am I missing something?

[Junts]

I have Paladin Devotion IV, Maximize and Human healing amp 2 with Healing amp 20% on my DT and I cannot hit 200 without quaffing a Greater Ardor pot. Is that how you hit 200 on Aryenne? Or, am I missing something?

superior ardor pot

and if you aren't using them all the time, you're doing something wrong. It goes without saying!

[CaptainFatpants]

superior ardor pot

and if you aren't using them all the time, you're doing something wrong. It goes without saying!

Just checkin'. That's what I thought. Danke.

[Junts]

Generally, I love what you do with your builds. I don't have the time to farm like crazy for Epic stuff or even non-epic stuff so I feel I cannot claim to know what the real end-game feels like right now.

That being said, I love this build. I LR'ed my pure pally into this. She wasn't capped yet, so I didn't have WoG. Right now, she is 17/2. I self-heal very well. I out-DPS most of the random people with whom I group. I am also, apparently, a poor enough player that I appreciate evasion very much.

So, is the problem that good players are not willing to trade 3d6 situational damage for something they don't need (evasion) and two feats for a feat-starved class?

I think Rock's problem had more to do with how limited the healing ability felt (healing other people more than occaisionally isn't really viable) and how narrowly focused the dps ability is without considerable endgame gear (lightning strikes, ravager set, etc). At 17/2, when you're fighting giants in prey or humans in the inspired quarter, you're a pretty bad damage dealer compared to most other melees, since you have next to none of your damage bonuses. It takes a long time for that to catch up to what a ranger or barb or fighter can output on a wider range of monsters.