New Player Nuking 101

[ddoer]

don't really have time for it during the week, but on the weekend I can do the test logs vs ellies, traps and casters to show you why we insist the decent reflex is worth so much more then a few extra hp.

hope that will clear it up a bit soon

I wish to see your result not against single-shoot DFB or chain lightning, but :

• elite traps in new content, e.g. Sins
• lots of FB and other dmg, e.g. Enter the Kobold end boss room
• Cometfall or any untype damage that we have no way to save (or reduce damage) without high reflex save/Dex

other than the traps, I would accept your reflex save is good enough if you could save the attacks for 80% of times on normal. (and your HP is good enough to survive the other 20%)

[FluffyCalico]

[*]elite traps in new content, e.g. Sins

Not a good example. My ranger and my wizard can stand in those all day. Only a 1 on either fails.

[Varis]

I wish to see your result not against single-shoot DFB or chain lightning, but :

• elite traps in new content, e.g. Sins
• lots of FB and other dmg, e.g. Enter the Kobold end boss room
• Cometfall or any untype damage that we have no way to save (or reduce damage) without high reflex save/Dex

other than the traps, I would accept your reflex save is good enough if you could save the attacks for 80% of times on normal. (and your HP is good enough to survive the other 20%)

I'll do very extensive tests on normal and elite for all sorts of places. BB, comet fall, DBF, Chain lighting, etc . The fire room is a great idea btw for kobold. I'll kill the meteor swarm thingies though or I will get my data in black and white...


If amrath traps end up being too tame, I will test monestary elite traps.. I KNOW those will mess me up big time =)

[SquelchHU]

Somewhat related to the topic at hand... my sorc 17 currently has 267 HP without any buffs, higher with them. How much higher depends on the buffs. Reflex save also varies depending on buff availability but usually ends up in the low 20s. So far I haven't had too many problems with survivability, but I also haven't gotten into these areas where all the damage is flying around on elite.

At level 18, would you say it would be more worthwhile to take Toughness and end up with an easy 33 + level or 43 + level HP, or to take greater spell penetration to help make finger of death and such stick better? Or put another way, are my HP good now? I don't have a greensteel HP item so I could get another 45 that way if needed.

[ddoer]

If amrath traps end up being too tame, I will test monestary elite traps.. I KNOW those will mess me up big time =)

when you try to improve your saving throw against cometfall and web, the mobs do use different kinds of spells to incapacitate you, including Otto Irresistible Dance, Soundburst etc. Soundburst's stun effect is a fortitude save. If you drop 2-point from Con to Dex, you get a better chance to save the cometfall, but lower your chance to save a Soundburst stun effect. The cleric in the Monestery uses Soudburst and Cometfall.

I'm not sure if the mobs could use any spell that we use. if they cast Power Word: Stun, your HP directly affect the duration of the effect of those spells.

Somewhat related to the topic at hand... my sorc 17 currently has 267 HP without any buffs, higher with them. How much higher depends on the buffs. Reflex save also varies depending on buff availability but usually ends up in the low 20s. So far I haven't had too many problems with survivability, but I also haven't gotten into these areas where all the damage is flying around on elite.

At level 18, would you say it would be more worthwhile to take Toughness and end up with an easy 33 + level or 43 + level HP, or to take greater spell penetration to help make finger of death and such stick better? Or put another way, are my HP good now? I don't have a greensteel HP item so I could get another 45 that way if needed.

I think your playing style affects how much you need to boost your saving throws. Say, if you like to zerge ahead of the rog/ranger, you obviously need to save against the traps. Or if you need to kite a lot of enemy casters in a firewall (instead of banshee them), you probably need better saving throws too.

There is no way a Sorc should spend a feat in Toughness. You need HP, but never from a feat.

[SquelchHU]

Yeah, I would have Banshee at 18. Unless I went for energy drain instead of course. I try to be careful and not get aggro unintentionally or be the first to go into new areas. Intentionally doing the fire wall dance is another matter, but if I had an AoE save or die effect I can't see that happening often, especially since all the higher level stuff is choked up with fire immunes anyways.

So would you say I'd be fine with a HP item and no Toughness?

Also, could someone translate for me?

Bracers: Bracers of the Glacier / Bracers of the Demonic Consort / Tier III Green Steel HP item (Recommend Tempered with Con skills for +13 Concentration)

I mostly get greensteel items now, but I'm still not entirely sure how you would make that one specifically.

[ddoer]

..
So would you say I'd be fine with a HP item and no Toughness?

I mostly get greensteel items now, but I'm still not entirely sure how you would make that one specifically.

my suggestions:

• read the few recent threads about the debate on Con/HP and Dex/Reflex save, and try to get an idea of how important/unimportant HP is.
• make a calculation on how many HP you'll get with/without the toughness feat. i would recommend you to aim at getting 300+ with buff.
• check all sorc feats and see which one you want to have. at lv 20, you'll have 7 feats only. see if you have spare slot for toughness.

re. the Concentration +13 GS item, e.g.
http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delalle...reflex&altar=3

I personally prefer using concentration +15 item and full exceptional con skills +6 to get a concentration skill as high as possible, as I don't use quicken. my concentration break down is as follows:
23 rank
06 Con modifier
15 Concentration ring (always on)
03 GS Tier 1 and 2 Con skills +1 and +2
03 DT Con skills +3 (could be replaced with GS Tier 3)
04 GH
02 Head of Good Fortune
01 Enhancement
------
57
01 with Con stat pots
------
58

It is more than necessarily for most cases. With 58, I will always pass my concentration check for using heal scroll if the damage is equal or lower than 43 (or 42) per hit. On normal in the mod 9 new quests, those devils/orthons make only 20-30 damage per hit and it will never break my concentration. if anyone hit me at 63, my concentration will always fail.

if you go for the concentration +13 GS, probably u won't make another con skills GS item and use a +15, so your concentration will be 8 points lower. as said, for most cases, you probably don't need the extra 8 points as your concentration will pass anyway. and it's up to you to concern about those more tough scenarios.

[tinyelvis]

I wish to see your result not against single-shoot DFB or chain lightning, but :

• elite traps in new content, e.g. Sins
• lots of FB and other dmg, e.g. Enter the Kobold end boss room
• Cometfall or any untype damage that we have no way to save (or reduce damage) without high reflex save/Dex

other than the traps, I would accept your reflex save is good enough if you could save the attacks for 80% of times on normal. (and your HP is good enough to survive the other 20%)

This is a long post but cuts to the meat of the discussion.

Honest DDoer I don't see the point of this. If you stumble into a lot of traps, I would suggest you get 2 levels of paladin for the extra save buffs. Also, if you are concerned just test them out and find out what the DC is. Traps almost dont exist in new content or when they do they are traps like you step into a room and gates fall and 10 tough mobs attack you. Sins is a notable exception but the traps there are really easy to avoid. Monastery gives more trouble.

As for saves, I am tiring of this discussion. If you think 20 - 40 hitpoints are more import than 4 or 5 bonus to dex saves then fine go with that idea. Here is how my last run in "New Invasion" went with end boss fight.

I go in with resistance and protection from fire, electric, and acid. Deathward is on. I am sitting at 320 hps. I will ultimately have about 3300 spell points. Hop down charm the two devils then start fight with Barnzidu the red named circling clockwise. I never mess up the whole battle and dont get hit with curse or blasted by appearing portals. It takes probably 40 casts of polar ray to kill him (i only maximized for best damage/mana efficiency on my toon) and about 5 minutes.

As I move around the area I am attacked by him and the ball lighting trap. The later hits maybe 5 times. In order to avoid curse portals you must stay relatively close to boss. He casts at least one spell between each of mine. If I let him get too close he melees me. This is close to 50 spell casts by him, however, lets say 40 to be conservative. These spell attacks include chain lightning, fireball, DBF, sunburst, and devil fever. I occasionally update my mass protection and occasionally heal myself (often not casting till I hit 180 or so hit points so I can constantly attack him overcoming his regeneration).

Damage on a saved AOE attack is approximately 20 to 30 pts. I take about twice that on a fail. His slash damage is around 15 to 20 pts per attack. Death is never a threat. It is easy to stay healthy and elemental protected. I have estimated based on combat log data taken over 3 fights the DCs of spells he casts. He does not seem to heighten his attacks (his fireball is easy to save against than his DBF) for example.

The ball lightning trap DC 20 - 23
Chain Lightning, DBF DC 28 - 30
Fireball DC 24 - 26

Spells seem to be somewhat random with a preference to AOE damage spells. Over the course of a battle I will get hit by at least 20 AOE spells requiring reflex saves. Maybe 5 other types of spells land. I may take about 100 total points of melee damage. I am required to use a heal scroll , and update my protections maybe 5 times.

Now, as I have said many times in the past, if you just make one more save than a toon with a low reflex save, the damage you dont take will be equal to the extra 20 - 40 hitpoints you gain by buffing your con at the expense of dex. Regardless, after one attack, the 20 - 40 hitpoint buffer is gone. Of course with a +5 better reflex save you can see you will probably make many more saves than a low dex build. This results in substantially less heals needed and means you can attack the boss more often (less regen for him). This fight is doable without pot usage but is very close. If you spend a lot of time healing yourself or updating your protection because you miss alot of saves, you may run out of mana. WF's are advised to scroll heal too.

Now, this is just the end fight. On the way there you will need to battle fire elements (DC 26 ish DBF), air elements (DC 22 ish dex save to avoid knockdown). Trog shaman (DC 22 ish DBF), spell throwers, as well as teleporting evil outsiders ( at least at the holes down). This can amount to a lot of saves required and damage accumulation. I don't think it is an exaggeration that a typical caster will be called on to make 50 to 100 saves while solo'n this quest. You folks who claim you don't take damage but yet need super high hit points either are greatly exaggerating your abilities or just have not done anything really substantial in the new content other than act as buff bots.

I will stick with my high saves. In fact, on many of my toons I wish they were higher. If you can perform better with an 8 dex, then post up at least a narrative of your achievement, explaining how you avoided the (what appears to me unavoidable) damage.

[Kalundan]

I will stick with my high saves. In fact, on many of my toons I wish they were higher. If you can perform better with an 8 dex, then post up at least a narrative of your achievement, explaining how you avoided the (what appears to me unavoidable) damage.

I've solo'd all of the new quests excluding Genesis which requires a lever man (which I've duo'd with you) and never required either in this arguement. Nothing over my base dex (I would wear a dex six item and have eaten a tome, mostly because I carry MS/Hide on this build) and my whopping 320 hp (which is by no means very high for a WF). In the old content I've also solo'd every soloable quest including kobold - Hard (reflex save intensive place; obviously) with no ooze puppet and the like, on and on (as you well know).

I don't disagree there are some benefits to be had, but in my opinion they're not worth the investment. A balanced con and more int is my favored way with this particular class. I would rather be skill heavy and have some benefit that I consider more susbtantial. I'd rather have UMD/Balance/MS/Hide/Con and whatever else I can fit in.

Now, this is just the end fight. On the way there you will need to battle fire elements (DC 26 ish DBF), air elements (DC 22 ish dex save to avoid knockdown). Trog shaman (DC 22 ish DBF), spell throwers, as well as teleporting evil outsiders ( at least at the holes down). This can amount to a lot of saves required and damage accumulation. I don't think it is an exaggeration that a typical caster will be called on to make 50 to 100 saves while solo'n this quest. You folks who claim you don't take damage but yet need super high hit points either are greatly exaggerating your abilities or just have not done anything really substantial in the new content other than act as buff bots.

I would say the air elementals save you have is underestimated, on my dex build character such a low save would be easily achieved however the reality doesn't match up with this figure. He does not save against a knockdown every time he faces an air elemental with a 40+ reflex save and a dex modifier that's over double of your dex caster.

In my opinion the point of con is to have enough HP to stand up to the initial blast, then anything else is cushion. This would be taking into account the entire HP picture of your future gear and looking at what quests you intend to have that character running. I used to have about 400 HP with the old Minos and random racial toughness enhancements, because I had excess action points to go around. Since everything in the new content has reverted to nuking mode, so have I; switching everything back to DPS'ing in all elements, and dropping ninety-something hitpoints (as it's completely unnecessary with the scaling).

I'm not advocating one extreme or the other; however I think investment in dex for the sole purpose of boosting your saves to a respectable level a wasted endeavor considering a real reflex save class and the levels necessary to save more than one in four reflex saves. Hell splash paladin and gain 12-14 to your saves, then you've got a real reflex save. Neither is overkillin con worth the investment; wasting build points in either of these areas I would consider not optimal.

[Varis]

lets see some numbers

monestary elite (I just ran in, gathered all the aggro and stood there for a while till I died.)

here are my stats in there
http://de.tinypic.com/r/cxnl/4

and a rundown of the combat log
http://de.tinypic.com/r/24etc7d/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/296c6ed/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/28rmyoi/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/o91ctx/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/250rq7p/4

tried elite traps in there too.. but they seemed buggy. I failed every save but I took no damage.. I could stand on top of the blade trap and never take a point of damage.

I'm sure you guys have plenty of data on how much reflex you need from all the evasion guys.


now on to kobold on normal ( was afraid the meteorswarm guys would eat me)

http://de.tinypic.com/r/2dirq01/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/15gft4n/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/25015d5/4

interesting stuff... looks like they don't heighten their spells... flamestrike I can make on a 2 while meteorswarm fails on a 3.
back in monestary the soundburst spell is also far easier to make then the comet fall.

[SquelchHU]

my suggestions:

• read the few recent threads about the debate on Con/HP and Dex/Reflex save, and try to get an idea of how important/unimportant HP is.
• make a calculation on how many HP you'll get with/without the toughness feat. i would recommend you to aim at getting 300+ with buff.
• check all sorc feats and see which one you want to have. at lv 20, you'll have 7 feats only. see if you have spare slot for toughness.

I've seen the debates. And I'm not too worried about HP damage unless it either kills me in one hit (mostly confined to elite traps and then not very often... again, haven't been in anything higher than elite vale quests yet), I am somehow prevented from acting, or I am out of mana. So mainly I want to know from the people that have been in the new stuff how much you take at a time so I have a baseline to aim for. As it is now, I'm already close to 300 with rage alone. Not counting temp HP, since those get knocked off after one hit. If that's enough, then I'm fine. But I'd probably go for the bracers anyways, because I'm not sure what the point of the DQ bracers are (forgot what they do) and I heard there was some belt 95% as good as the three item combo that gives +50% to 8th and lower ice spells. So I don't really need the bracers for that. Telvi's sash? I dunno.

Anyways, I'll stop derailing the thread now.

[tinyelvis]

......

I would say the air elementals save you have is underestimated, on my dex build character such a low save would be easily achieved however the reality doesn't match up with this figure. He does not save against a knockdown every time he faces an air elemental with a 40+ reflex save and a dex modifier that's over double of your dex caster................

Attention to detail my friend. I didn't say a reflex save. Elementals typically require you to make 2 saves. One is a reflex save and it is applied to a bludgeoning air attack. The other often missed save is a DEX save vs knockdown. I have tried to explain this to people but they usually don't seem to understand. Unlike a reflex save, a Dex save just uses your stat bonus as a bonus. And, the DC of 20 0r 21 is quite accurate for the elementals in New Invasion on normal. It is really easy to check since it is always reported in your combat log. You can browse it while you lie helpless prone on the ground. This is why your ranger dex build also fails the save. A toon with low dex has no chance of making it. My high save WF sorc build makes this save about 1 in 4 times. But remember the elemental requires you to make the save every combat round.

Its true that points into stats to boost saves are not for everyone, however, contrary to some peoples boosts, I believe the majority of knowledgable experienced sorc players dont over buff their con anymore. Especially people who played the end game content. The majority of people put the remaining points in dex, some put them into intel, and others strength. Some even buff the wisdom stat. Constitution above a 10 or 12 is a waste for most experienced players, in spite of what an influential vocal minority might claim. However, I would recommend it for new players.

[Kalundan]

Attention to detail my friend. I didn't say a reflex save. Elementals typically require you to make 2 saves. One is a reflex save and it is applied to a bludgeoning air attack. The other often missed save is a DEX save vs knockdown. I have tried to explain this to people but they usually don't seem to understand. Unlike a reflex save, a Dex save just uses your stat bonus as a bonus. And, the DC of 20 0r 21 is quite accurate for the elementals in New Invasion on normal. It is really easy to check since it is always reported in your combat log. You can browse it while you lie helpless prone on the ground. This is why your ranger dex build also fails the save. A toon with low dex has no chance of making it. My high save WF sorc build makes this save about 1 in 4 times. But remember the elemental requires you to make the save every combat round.

Its true that points into stats to boost saves are not for everyone, however, contrary to some peoples boosts, I believe the majority of knowledgable experienced sorc players dont over buff their con anymore. Especially people who played the end game content. The majority of people put the remaining points in dex, some put them into intel, and others strength. Some even buff the wisdom stat. Constitution above a 10 or 12 is a waste for most experienced players, in spite of what an influential vocal minority might claim. However, I would recommend it for new players.

That's why I included both in my reply. Mod and save. You said dex save which would be reflex, not in fact dex mod, but I didn't think it would be worth it to mince words, hence my inclusion of both relavent figures. Personally I think they're the mot broken mob in the game, and regardless if your dex mod is 20 or reflex 60, it wouldn't be a siginificant difference.

[DDOSin]

Your video is decent. You covered most of the basics which will help new players and thats great..

But watching it just makes me feel like you shouldn't be the one doing it..

I mean sorry but your not very good at nuking.

The reason is pretty simple: Your a clicker.

To be very effective at it, you must use mouselook mode. It allows you to target spells SO much quicker and more effectively, especually while kiting or circle strafing, you can always keep your target in view for manual aim, with no ristrictions on turn speed... Trying to align your view and manually target while using strafe keys and cliicking yoru hotbar just looks extremely innaccurate and clumsy to me.. You simply can't effectovely target nearly as fast or accurate as someone playing in mouselook mode.

Mouselook mode is THE way to play a nuker. Learn it.

So much BS behind this post it's pathetic. Between cooldowns and casting times there is no reason anyone couldn't have their mouse over the next spell ready to cast. The fact is there are maneuvers you can only perform by keyboard movements and unless you have another hand, clicking on the spell is the only way to cast. But on the flipside mouselook/keybinds can do stuff someone who only clicks can't do. I've played dozens of MMORPGs since the '90s and a hybrid of both (depending on the situation) is optimal, but limiting yourself just one style of play doesn't make much of a difference at all.

Calling someone "not very good at nuking" because they have a different play style than you is ignorant. In fact I bet platinum he could stomp you in a character duel. Geeks making fun of other geeks for difference in play style is humorous at best. You remind me of the kiddies back in the '80s who thought they were so much better/cooler because they used an NES Advantage over others with a handheld controller.

Go back to WoW with your nonsense.

[tinyelvis]

That's why I included both in my reply. Mod and save. You said dex save which would be reflex, not in fact dex mod, but I didn't think it would be worth it to mince words, hence my inclusion of both relavent figures. Personally I think they're the mot broken mob in the game, and regardless if your dex mod is 20 or reflex 60, it wouldn't be a siginificant difference.

Perhaps you missunderstand me. Even with a ultra high dex of 40, that only gives you a dex save of +15. So, a DC 20 knock down attack that occurs over and over and over and over again will ultimately result in failure even for the best dex'd toon. Very High Dex for a sorc is perhaps 20 to 28. Which is something like a +5 to +9 dex save. Its not necessarily broke, the knock down just uses a dex save for some reason.

[ddoer]

Honest DDoer I don't see the point of this. If you stumble into a lot of traps, I would suggest you get 2 levels of paladin for the extra save buffs. ....

... Of course with a +5 better reflex save you can see you will probably make many more saves than a low dex build. This results in substantially less heals needed and means you can attack the boss more often (less regen for him). This fight is doable without pot usage but is very close. If you spend a lot of time healing yourself or updating your protection because you miss alot of saves, you may run out of mana. ....

Now, this is just the end fight. On the way there you will need to battle fire elements (DC 26 ish DBF), air elements (DC 22 ish dex save to avoid knockdown). Trog shaman (DC 22 ish DBF), spell throwers, as well as teleporting evil outsiders ( at least at the holes down). This can amount to a lot of saves required and damage accumulation. I don't think it is an exaggeration that a typical caster will be called on to make 50 to 100 saves while solo'n this quest. ...

my point is, reflex save is meaningful if it helps to save us against traps/attacks that may kill us in one-hit. Such as in Sins, there are mobs and deadly traps at the same time, and it is possible for many of us (not you, for sure) to step on a trap carelessly.

I never have the leisure to measure the saving throw requirement in the New Invasion end fight. Let's focus on your solo scenario. You think +5 Dex/reflex is important to overcome the boss' regen. (btw, I can't catch up how does the +5 come from. but let's assume that) According to MrCow, the boss regen at 50hp per 2 second on normal. Without the additional reflex save, how frequent we get hit by curse (that could be avoided by reflex save?!), DBF and lightning? And how long it take to remove curse, spend to heal and re-cast prot, and swap back to the damage boost weapon? And what's our damage of CoC/Polar Ray in compare to the dps loss? to me:

• i can't tell the frequency before I seriously go in for testing. for 2-man, that I am always the one who got aggro, usually get cursed for around 2 times in my rough memory. I treat the DBF and lightning damage as nothing as I can self heal in a rate much faster than he does damage. The only case that will cause trouble is when I forget to cast DW and get neg level. (and for sure it won't happen again)
• i can tell the time for remove curse, heal, and protection, however. It takes around 6 seconds to do all the 3. It translates to regeneration of 150 HP for the boss.

so, the question is, what's your polar ray damage? is it enough to overcome the 150HP regen? it seems to me the regen is a concern to melee but not to sorc.

So, are you exactly mean your build could reliable avoid being knockdown by air elemental? i honestly think it is very useful. For the other save, they are unimportant to me, i usually standing still to fight the fire elementals because it's fb is ****. And for the air elementals, without your saving, we'll play in a different way that reduce the need for saving. For normal, if there are 2 air elementals, I'll wait for one of them to move (they usually do), and then setup layers of firewall and shoot polar ray in a distance. I'll get knocked down, but it will die before I got killed unless I'm extremely unluck. btw, I suppose you also run pass the other mobs in stealth. And btw, for New Invasion solo, does the first 2 floor matter? we could always go back to the first shrine with DD.

Just assume there are 100 attack for saving, and your additional +5 reflex save makes you saves 25% more than me, each attack make 30 points of damage. It translates to 2-3 heal scrolls. if you think the damage is more than 30, please give a specific example.

I think high dex/reflex save works for your playing style, but it's not necessarily the case for the other experienced players, and definitely won't make the other caster gimped or broken.

lets see some numbers

monestary elite (I just ran in, gathered all the aggro and stood there for a while till I died.)

....

I'm sure you guys have plenty of data on how much reflex you need from all the evasion guys.


now on to kobold on normal ( was afraid the meteorswarm guys would eat me)

http://de.tinypic.com/r/2dirq01/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/15gft4n/4
http://de.tinypic.com/r/25015d5/4

interesting stuff... looks like they don't heighten their spells... flamestrike I can make on a 2 while meteorswarm fails on a 3.
back in monestary the soundburst spell is also far easier to make then the comet fall.

for monestery, the only meaningful data are you fail the cometfall trip when you roll 3 (+24), and pass when you rolled 19 (or 17? +24). It would be more useful to gether exact DC required to save against the cometfall. imho, for that case, only the cometfall and sound burst stun are real threat. And I don't see any reason we should pull all casters together to kill, why not FoD in a distance or banshee them group by group?

for Kobold, the data is not useful to me. imho, only the attacks that will incap you and those non-fire damage are are real threat. e.g.
"Living Firestorm's flame strike hit you for a total of 1 point of fire damage after 30 were blocked by energy resistance", does it matter to make a save?

[ddoer]

now on to kobold on normal ( was afraid the meteorswarm guys would eat me)

i ran into Enter the Kobold in a PUG and collected some damage figures after the end fight. The things we did is 3 melees run up to the Kobold start beating it, and I stand at the bridge keep shooting Polar Ray and CoC, and a cleric stayed in the hallway. No one kite. They just kill the meteorswarm and spells quickly when it spawn. I unintentionally got aggro from some/all of the fire eles. (perhaps my coc hit them), and they keep shooting DBF at me, and I just stand still shooting the Kobold (and later the Pyripnon). the damage is:

Frenzied Fire Elemental's delayed blast fireball hit you for a total of 75, 24, 16, 9, 12, 9, 44, 46, 8, 14, 38, 43, 44, 44, 41, 37, 40, 44, 12, 42, 42 points of fire damage after 30 were blocked by energy resistance.

It's a total of 684 damage in 21 DBF. There are also slash damage and DBF from Pyripnon and flame strike from Living Firestorm (and maybe more attacks in the discarded log) at around 20-40 per hit. I presume i have failed every reflex save as my reflex save is very low (and i don't even use a resistance +5 item) In my memory, i jumped aside to heal myself for 2-3 times, 200 HP each, and i don't bother to cast fire prot nor try to avoid the DBF. Is reflex save to those DBF a must? or a nice-to-have? I sure they are bonus, but I don't agree every experienced caster think Dex/reflex save is so important. With more reflex save, maybe i could save 3000gp for 2 heal scroll. (or alternatively, i could cry for heal to the cleric)

[sephiroth1084]

On this topic then, I have to agree with Shade. Using mouse-look and hotkeys to cast is superior to clicking.

...and because I always do this when the subject arises...

Or use a gamepad! http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=153100

[Varis]

for monestery, the only meaningful data are you fail the cometfall trip when you roll 3 (+24), and pass when you rolled 19 (or 17? +24). It would be more useful to gether exact DC required to save against the cometfall. imho, for that case, only the cometfall and sound burst stun are real threat. And I don't see any reason we should pull all casters together to kill, why not FoD in a distance or banshee them group by group?

for Kobold, the data is not useful to me. imho, only the attacks that will incap you and those non-fire damage are are real threat. e.g.
"Living Firestorm's flame strike hit you for a total of 1 point of fire damage after 30 were blocked by energy resistance", does it matter to make a save?

hmm I think you may be asking a bit much of reflex on a mage without evasion...ddoer. If you expect to chill on a elite trap, then the focus on reflex really is a waste of time.


As for comet fall... well you can do the calculations on your own.. quite simple... the soundburst from the cleric I make on a 2, that makes the DC 30 for comet fall AT THE VERY WORST. In other words, on a 6 or better in my case.

As for kobold you can see that I end up taking very little damage minus the stuff that is unavoidable of course. Vs the bludgeon damage from meteorswarm, the holy part of flamestrike and scorching ray that offers no save, your extra 20-40 hit points will help.

Keep it in context though please. What I reduce to 1 damage, you reduce to 30. At the rate you get hit in there solo, someone without a good dex will get creamed real fast. I had 1,8,8,6,4,14,etc etc go over my head like a fountain.
The meteor and other unavoidable damage was a tiny part compared to the massive fire damage comming my way.

It's pretty clear that dex makes a tremendeous difference that goes far beyond another 20-40 hit points.
Is it required? No, neighter massive hit points nor a good reflex save are required to do well as a mage but if you want to argue that a 16 or 18 base con is better then a 14 con with a 16 dex, you are plain wrong.

getting some dex is WELL worth the investment and as such good enough advice in my video.

[Visty]

just saying, if youre talking about +4-5 reflex you arent talking about just 20-40 more hp. most of the times its 60-80 or even 100 more hp