New Player Nuking 101

[transtemporal]

I don't suppose anyone wants to do a mouselook nuking video for the comparison? I use clicking and it doesn't feel as fast as it could be but I couldn't make mouselook + hotkeys work.

Just on the fire damage mitigation though asp, I thought the fire prot superceded the resist? i.e. it ignores fire resist until you don't have any fire prot left. Or have they fixed that?

[tinyelvis]

Dexterity:
To claim that a high con for a caster is the best and only way is really ignorant. If a player rarely or never gets hit while they play, why do they need even more hitpoints? The more you play this game as a caster, the closer you get to the asymtope of low or no damage accumulated. Squishy is a play style, not a fact of life for casters.

What does high dex give you,
1. A good dex save. This can often be +4 or +5 (for drow) better than a toon who starts at an 8 dex. This is huge and can mean the difference between immediately landing on your butt up against an air elemental and just getting bumped 5 feet with enough time to kill it.

2. A good reflex save. Again we are talking +4 or 5 better. All bosses end game use tough AOE elemental spells and often spam them. If you are going toe to toe with them, One save and half damage taken will save you more hitpoints than the extra you get by putting the points into con. Nevermind the other saves you make over the course of a half dozen to dozen AOE attacks while you kill the boss.

3. Adds to balance. If this were the only benifit it would be worth it. You can remain standing while the titan bashes the ground, you can jump up quickly after knocked down. Try to fight the red named devil at the gates or in shipment without a great balance. You will be lucky to survive. The air elementals in new invasion will completely own you otherwise.

So, what do you lose

1. 20 - 40 hitpoints.
2. +1 or +2 better fort save (rarely a factor in the game).

The latter is somewhat useful, but the former, as mentioned before is easily made up in just one save (nevermind the half dozen or more you make between shrines). Furthermore, there are no single end game attacks that are life threatening. The only real way to die end game is to be unable to heal yourself, and this most often occurs when you fail a save and are helpless on your butt.

I am not sure why people still argue this. I guess it is similar to the reason people claimed for the longest time that blue scale robes were better than draconic robes. People invested a lot of time and resources into it and just hate to admit that another potentially better way exists.

[tinyelvis]

I personally think the best videos are the ones that show you how to do things, like the best way to use a niacs or good firewall use tactics. This video has aspects of this idea. However, a more focused video could also be very useful. For example, the OP just touched on fire wall techniques. A comprehensive video on firewall techniques would be great.

Claiming a caster is poor because he uses some style of play that you dont is usually just ignorant. I came to this game in 2006 as a first person shooter expert. I never would have played the game if a mouse look option was not available, however, different people have different preferences. If they dont match yours so what. Now, a more useful approach would be to produce a video showing great ways to use mouse look mode in play. Conversely, someone could produce a video showing another method. The viewer can then decide. In either case, you just might learn something.

[Aspenor]

Let's pose this another way, why are people being hit by AoE damage in the first place? You can rely on your measly +4 or +5 to reflexes and go "toe to toe" if you like. I'll keep moving and avoiding the damage altogether with extra hit points as nothing more than a safety net for a(n) (un)lucky hit.

I could say the same about those supporting more dex over con...that they have so much invested time in their characters that they don't want to believe they might have wasted it. Saying this goes nowhere, though, because both sides can make the same argument.

It comes down to a matter of choice, and the vast, vast majority choose hit points over a few points of reflexes.

[Varis]

There is a lot more that could be shown, any aspect of it really. Trust me, it was very hard to keep the vid reasonably short.

No cloud + firewall, putting it on archers, or objects like in shroud, no showing how fireball can blast door open, lining people up for lighting bolt, how all this is a bit different in a group vs solo, etc etc etc

mouse lock vs clicker, con build vs con/dex build


you guys know where is a limit to how long this can be? or should I make tons of small vids?

do a firewall lesson with "burning ring of fire" playing?

"how to put some BFG into you DBF"?

no thanks =) It's a huge amount of pain to record voice


If you want to make a mouse lock video PLEASE be my guest... I'm sure many people can profit from this.

[transtemporal]

Good on you for putting a vid up BTW OP, +1

[tinyelvis]

Let's pose this another way, why are people being hit by AoE damage in the first place? You can rely on your measly +4 or +5 to reflexes and go "toe to toe" if you like. I'll keep moving and avoiding the damage altogether with extra hit points as nothing more than a safety net for a(n) (un)lucky hit.

I could say the same about those supporting more dex over con...that they have so much invested time in their characters that they don't want to believe they might have wasted it. Saying this goes nowhere, though, because both sides can make the same argument.

It comes down to a matter of choice, and the vast, vast majority choose hit points over a few points of reflexes.

Well, I agree if you are new to the sorcerer, it is best to give yourself the most hitpoints possible. I would also suggest a WF to new players. However, if you avoid all damage as claimed, why do you need so many hitpoints? I believe you are exaggerating about not being hit by spells. Either that or you are not solo'n or fighting end bosses in certain quests or raids. With more experience you will be and you will see that getting hit by these spells are unavoidable. (ie. Reaver, Abbot, DBF cast by elements in many quests, red names at end of new quests, and countless others).

In Mod 9 the lethality of mobs and bosses is drastically reduced. Combine this with your logic or mine and it still points to the lack of need for 20 to 40 extra hitpoints by experienced players. For my play style, hit points are so unimportant that I will soon dump my minos legens helmet and take the further 20 pt loss to open an item slot.

[sirgog]

Well, I agree if you are new to the sorcerer, it is best to give yourself the most hitpoints possible. I would also suggest a WF to new players. However, if you avoid all damage as claimed, why do you need so many hitpoints? I believe you are exaggerating about not being hit by spells. Either that or you are not solo'n or fighting end bosses in certain quests or raids. With more experience you will be and you will see that getting hit by these spells are unavoidable. (ie. Reaver, Abbot, DBF cast by elements in many quests, red names at end of new quests, and countless others).

In Mod 9 the lethality of mobs and bosses is drastically reduced. Combine this with your logic or mine and it still points to the lack of need for 20 to 40 extra hitpoints by experienced players. For my play style, hit points are so unimportant that I will soon dump my minos legens helmet and take the further 20 pt loss to open an item slot.

It comes down to this:

When not against crazy AoE damage, high HP is far superior to a high Reflex save.

When against crazy AoE damage, such as in Shroud part 4, VOD when Suulo gets loose, or worst of all Sor'jek, the high HP sorc will fail saves often but survive their failures. Each failed save requires a Cleric to expend 35 SP and one Heal cooldown, plus the Sorc to expend 20 to 40 SP to cast their preferred Protection from Elements spell.

The high Dex sorc will succeed at the saves often, but they will die when they fail a save. Each failed save will require a Cleric to expend 60 SP on a quickened True Res, plus the True Res cooldown, plus the Sorc will need to recast their GH, Protection from Elements, Resist Elements, and Haste. They'll also be near-useless once they have two or three death penalties stacked up, and thus be not worth raising. In addition, each failed save carries the risk of a total party wipe, if the sorc had a critical role (example: traps in Abbot Elite Ice Wands room).


If I was able to respec my Sorc, I'd be changing them from a Drow to a Human, and putting a base 16 or 17 (maybe even 18) into Con alongside the mandatory 18 Cha - I regard the 13 base Con as one of the biggest mistakes I made building that toon.

[ddoer]

Each failed save requires a Cleric to expend 35 SP and one Heal cooldown, plus the Sorc to expend 20 to 40 SP to cast their preferred Protection from Elements spell.

my drow (i.e. non-WF) sorc rarely need any cleric to heal, including when hit by DBF or chain lightning in sor'jek or new invasion end fight with 2-man. I know when to heal myself better than the cleric. But cleric just like to waste their mana to heal and overheal me and then sxxk pots, and I can't help them. 40SP for protection is nth when you get 3k spell points. Most of those attacks will not come twice in row and you will know about the potential damage when you play a quest for the 2nd time, so you could prepare yourself against those damages.

for my sorc, with 14 init Con and 22 in lv 20, get 345 HP with Shroud tier 2 HP item and stats pots, is more than enough to survive. I have no Dex, only at 10 (and i won't waste any +2 Tome), and I assume I'll fail in reflex save every time, and i don't even use a resistance +5 item.

with full scroll mastery, you could heal at 170/200 (with healing amp 20%, that you could foresee the tough fight and put it on in advance) HP, together with protection, it's roughly a 300 HP buffer and it's just very hard to get killed. Not to say you have displacement, fire/cold shield, nightshield, stoneskin etc that could protect you in different situation.

how many HP is enough? how many Dex/Reflex Save is enough? I would say both are not important.

• Dex is slightly better in saving against trip/web that you often need (esp if you do nuking). do you have high enough reflex save to survive elite traps? as caster, we have to jump the traps carefully anyway.
• Con/HP is good to survive against traps. I got killed by traps much more than any mob. Traps are often avoidable if we move and jump carefully. but when you get hit, it's 300 damage that cannot be reduced significantly with displacement/ fire/cold shield / Shroud absorption item. Don't know about others but I don't always top my HP and traps hurt.

if you tell me your Dex could help your *reliably* save against elite traps in the new quests (say, sins), then I would consider your build has merit over mine. normal traps do not count as I can easily self heal.

Return to the OT build discussion, if one don't need more int and skill point, put stats to Str, so you will be more happy when you pull out your vorpal weapon, as if you make no dmg, u won't get a chance to vorpal even if you rolled 20.

[Varis]

It comes down to this:

When not against crazy AoE damage, high HP is far superior to a high Reflex save.

When against crazy AoE damage, such as in Shroud part 4, VOD when Suulo gets loose, or worst of all Sor'jek, the high HP sorc will fail saves often but survive their failures. Each failed save requires a Cleric to expend 35 SP and one Heal cooldown, plus the Sorc to expend 20 to 40 SP to cast their preferred Protection from Elements spell.

The high Dex sorc will succeed at the saves often, but they will die when they fail a save. Each failed save will require a Cleric to expend 60 SP on a quickened True Res, plus the True Res cooldown, plus the Sorc will need to recast their GH, Protection from Elements, Resist Elements, and Haste. They'll also be near-useless once they have two or three death penalties stacked up, and thus be not worth raising. In addition, each failed save carries the risk of a total party wipe, if the sorc had a critical role (example: traps in Abbot Elite Ice Wands room).


If I was able to respec my Sorc, I'd be changing them from a Drow to a Human, and putting a base 16 or 17 (maybe even 18) into Con alongside the mandatory 18 Cha - I regard the 13 base Con as one of the biggest mistakes I made building that toon.

I think what elvis and I are trying to say is that a high reflex save does not come at a significant loss to hit points. You can do both.

Why do people think us dex sorcerers get 1 shotted? I have 322 hps and not only do I NOT get 1 shotted, I ALSO make a ton of reflex saves, allowing me to survive the massive aggro I always have. Hell, I would be running around with 367 HPs if I were not so obsessed with AC.

Why always the same calculation vs DBF? greaves, shield, resist, protection and BOOM, no problem? What about chain lightning damage? What about comet fall save to avoid being on the ground?

[FluffyCalico]

if you tell me your Dex could help your *reliably* save against elite traps in the new quests (say, sins), then I would consider your build has merit over mine. normal traps do not count as I can easily self heal.

To stand in the SINs trap on elite 33 reflex will due. But like you pointed out that is way more than these sorcs are going to have.

[Aspenor]

Well, I agree if you are new to the sorcerer, it is best to give yourself the most hitpoints possible. I would also suggest a WF to new players. However, if you avoid all damage as claimed, why do you need so many hitpoints? I believe you are exaggerating about not being hit by spells. Either that or you are not solo'n or fighting end bosses in certain quests or raids. With more experience you will be and you will see that getting hit by these spells are unavoidable. (ie. Reaver, Abbot, DBF cast by elements in many quests, red names at end of new quests, and countless others).

In Mod 9 the lethality of mobs and bosses is drastically reduced. Combine this with your logic or mine and it still points to the lack of need for 20 to 40 extra hitpoints by experienced players. For my play style, hit points are so unimportant that I will soon dump my minos legens helmet and take the further 20 pt loss to open an item slot.

Being new has nothing to do with it, Elvis. That's my point. The hit points are a SAFETY NET. If you can't grasp that concept, I can't help you.

I could turn this around and say that you are exaggerating how often you save, and how much incoming damage it saves you, but you would probably prattle on about how hit points are only needed by new players.

It's a personal choice, one you are entitled to make, but quite frankly the majority of players would call your sorcerer a gimp if you're more worried about dexterity than hit points. I know you don't care what they think, but perception is reality. There are very, very, very few situations where there is completely unavoidable reflex saves required, and on the off chance I actually get hit with something, I have a safety net of hit points to fall back on. It's not complicated, and I would think somebody with your intellect could grasp it. Apparently I overestimated you.

[Samadhi]

<posts Here From Asp And Sirgog>

Qft

[tinyelvis]

Being new has nothing to do with it, Elvis.

So now you are claiming that new casters dont generally take more damage than experienced casters? Did you really say Nothing?

That's my point. The hit points are a SAFETY NET. If you can't grasp that concept, I can't help you.

I could turn this around and say that you are exaggerating how often you save, and how much incoming damage it saves you,

First off, I only pointed out that one save will leave you with as many or more hitpoints than the 20-40 you get with extra con. And incoming damage is halved. These are really facts my friend. An exaggeration is saying something like, "on the off chance I actually get hit with something."

but you would probably prattle on about how hit points are only needed by new players.

It's a personal choice, one you are entitled to make, but quite frankly the majority of players would call your sorcerer a gimp if you're more worried about dexterity than hit points.

Be clear here, we are talking +4 or 5 bonus to dex and reflex saves plus bonus to balance vs. 20-40 hitpoints. The fact that you have to twist what we say, exaggerate, and imply something else really speaks volumes about the defensability of your argument.

I know you don't care what they think, but perception is reality. There are very, very, very few situations where there is completely unavoidable reflex saves required

Perhaps in the style, server, or even game you play,...but the rest of do take damage. And end game that more often than not means a high end AOE spell. I love this, you both claim to be the master of not taking damage and yet require very much an extra hit point cushion. I hope your mind is not as conflicted as this statement.

, and on the off chance I actually get hit with something, I have a safety net of hit points to fall back on. It's not complicated, and I would think somebody with your intellect could grasp it. Apparently I overestimated you.

Just to summarize, I was just pointing out the lack of logic or consistency in your statement. You claim to be so talented that you rarely if ever take damage, yet seem to feel with probably 300ish hit points you need 20-40 more. You make comments like

...on the off chance I actually get hit with something....
...I'll keep moving and avoiding the damage altogether with extra hit points as nothing more than a safety net for a(n) (un)lucky hit....

So, the one occasional hit (which at end game is typically about 40 with save and 80 without). Is this really something you worry about? Are your hitpoint max's somewhere around 100 points. I doubt that, why the worry then? I'm sorry, your explanation makes no sense. In fact, it just further confirms my point that there is no real need for 20-40 more hit points. I find that at 300 hitpoints end game. I have plenty of time to heal. The only time I die is if i fail a save and something puts me on my butt and I cant get up. That's it.

[Aspenor]

The only time I die is if i fail a save and something puts me on my butt and I cant get up. That's it.

And the only time I die is....when I get so lagged out I can't move for more than 20 seconds. Fail a save and fall? Oh well, no big deal, I live through it, stand up and heal myself. I've got the hit points to take a savage beating while on the ground.

Just to summarize: I don't die.

[tinyelvis]

It comes down to this:

When not against crazy AoE damage, high HP is far superior to a high Reflex save.

When against crazy AoE damage, such as in Shroud part 4, VOD when Suulo gets loose, or worst of all Sor'jek, the high HP sorc will fail saves often but survive their failures.

The High save sorc will save more often taking less damage. When he fails he certainly will not even come close to dying. Which of these bosses does more than 300 hp damage on a fail? Even at 200 hp, you dont die in these quests, and this is 33% less than we are talking about.

Each failed save requires a Cleric to expend 35 SP and one Heal cooldown, plus the Sorc to expend 20 to 40 SP to cast their preferred Protection from Elements spell.

The high Dex sorc will succeed at the saves often, but they will die when they fail a save.

Where do you get this nonsense? Is this really your main argument? Your whole argument is based on a completely false premise. If you correct this falsehood. Then the rest of your comments actually support a higher dex and reflex save since they will save the party resources. Making saves against high end AOE means less protections need cast, less heals need to be used. Its laughable man.

Each failed save will require a Cleric to expend 60 SP on a quickened True Res, plus the True Res cooldown, plus the Sorc will need to recast their GH, Protection from Elements, Resist Elements, and Haste. They'll also be near-useless once they have two or three death penalties stacked up, and thus be not worth raising. In addition, each failed save carries the risk of a total party wipe, if the sorc had a critical role (example: traps in Abbot Elite Ice Wands room).


If I was able to respec my Sorc, I'd be changing them from a Drow to a Human, and putting a base 16 or 17 (maybe even 18) into Con alongside the mandatory 18 Cha - I regard the 13 base Con as one of the biggest mistakes I made building that toon.

You may want to play a bit in the new content before making that claim.

Look, you seem pretty new to casting and sorcerers. I would agree, you should probably put the extra points into your con.

[Asketes]

you mean /death count?

they got me about 2 or 3 times with this when i was really new to the game. hehe


ever since i've vowed to hate this one.

reason: in a casual/town area it's *mildly* funny, but in a quest it can ruin a lot of the fun and impede the party w/ fails and wipes

:Þ no bueno :Þ

[transtemporal]

Varis and Elvis, you seem pretty adamant that a reflex save of 24-28 along with some good twitch skills is enough to avoid most of the AoE damage in the current endgame. I don't doubt your twitch skills but is 24-28 really a decent reflex save at endgame? I'm not asking this to be a smartass, my barb has a reflex of 24 at 18th and he makes a few saving throws but not so many that I'd rely on it against living meteor swarms, for example. Or do you combine twitch with reflex with resist/protect/greaves?

[Varis]

Varis and Elvis, you seem pretty adamant that a reflex save of 24-28 along with some good twitch skills is enough to avoid most of the AoE damage in the current endgame. I don't doubt your twitch skills but is 24-28 really a decent reflex save at endgame? I'm not asking this to be a smartass, my barb has a reflex of 24 at 18th and he makes a few saving throws but not so many that I'd rely on it against living meteor swarms, for example. Or do you combine twitch with reflex with resist/protect/greaves?

don't really have time for it during the week, but on the weekend I can do the test logs vs ellies, traps and casters to show you why we insist the decent reflex is worth so much more then a few extra hp.

hope that will clear it up a bit soon

[transtemporal]

don't really have time for it during the week, but on the weekend I can do the test logs vs ellies, traps and casters to show you why we insist the decent reflex is worth so much more then a few extra hp.

hope that will clear it up a bit soon

Cool, cheers Varis.

And apologies for my earlier comment about noobs. I was in an intolerant mood yesterday. I'm not so set in my ways that I won't change my opinion but for me, the evidence points to high hp/resist-protect as a more fruitful strategy over high hp/high reflex/resist-protect.