Long term is this gonna work?

[pariahspade]

I made a sort of battle wizard character that right now is extremely valuable to the party I hang out with and most importantly: really dang fun.

However, I'm worried that if the idea is going to work long term, right now his large amount of spells do wonders for his adaptability but I've heard a lot of things about end game casters.

The basic thing so far is I've gotten to level 7, 6 wizard 1 fighter (yes it has to be wiz not sorc because I have an addiction to that spellbook and all the many things I can do with that). I'm not trying to be the absolutely most efficient version possible, just useful so that I can enjoy it.

Basic build so far:
6 Wizard/1Fighter
Str: 19 dex:16 con:10 Int: 19 wis: 8 cha:8

Feats:
toughness
heighten
eschew (reconsidering this one)
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Two weapon fighting
Oversized two weapon fighting

Enhancements there are too many but it's mostly spent increasing the toughness with regular, fighter toughness, and racial toughness all rolled in to give me some good health to make up for the con. From there it's focused on increasing spell points and spell effectiveness (increasing damage etc.)


It's really fun and very effective but does anyone know if it'll keep up like this or if it will go downhill from here? My main hint for this is that it's only very effective as a soloist or small party assist which is how my group of 3 get through elite mode sometimes. But in parties of 6 it looks like just another DPS that isn't as effective as the full on fighters.

[captain1z]

I made a sort of battle wizard ..........: really dang fun.

However, I'm worried that if the idea is going to work long term,

Basic build so far:
6 Wizard/1Fighter
Str: 19 dex:16 con:10 Int: 19 wis: 8 cha:8

Feats:
toughness
heighten
eschew (reconsidering this one)
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Two weapon fighting
Oversized two weapon fighting

Ok Im glad you are having fun with the build because that at the end of the day is what matters most but...........

1 level of fighter on a wizard doesnt hurt at all, you can still have the top level spells, thats the good news.

The bad news is you should have switched your Con and your Dex. Your con is really gonna be the limiting factor on this character, as soon as something turns around to hit you at higher levels your toast.

What do you have, maybe 77 hp or so? Maybe 115 by 16th if your lucky? Its not enough to melee. You may die often and people may come to know you for it if you are not careful.

Your feats look fine, though eschew can be switched for extend and you should think about fitting in maximize and empower also.....somewhere. I wont comment on the 2 melee feats as this is your own flavor....... I will say that if melee is gonna be a focus you might think about two handed fighting because its cheaper and you will get a better bonus to hit, glancing blows and +50% str added to your damage.


Have fun but this build is gonna be a tough sell as is.

[captain1z]

Basic build so far:
6 Wizard/1Fighter
Str: 19 dex:10 con:16 Int: 19 wis: 8 cha:8

Feats:
toughness
extend
maximize
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
two handed fighting
empower

.

this is how I might have done it. With the right spells AC is less of an issue but even with 16 dex when you get to say level 11-12, you may have at best a 40 AC and it wont really matter.

[Angelus_dead]

It's really fun and very effective but does anyone know if it'll keep up like this or if it will go downhill from here?

Um, you list 8 charisma. That suggests you're not a robot, who would have 6. That's a pretty important survival benefit for a melee wizard.

[captain1z]

Um, you list 8 charisma. That suggests you're not a robot, who would have 6. That's a pretty important survival benefit for a melee wizard.

thats true also but I was thinking he may not have it available....... I just hope hes not an elf, a human is passable.

numbers of feats pionts to human.

[pariahspade]

thats true also but I was thinking he may not have it available....... I just hope hes not an elf, a human is passable.

numbers of feats pionts to human.

oh yeah i forgot to mention it is human

Ok Im glad you are having fun with the build because that at the end of the day is what matters most but...........

1 level of fighter on a wizard doesnt hurt at all, you can still have the top level spells, thats the good news.

The bad news is you should have switched your Con and your Dex. Your con is really gonna be the limiting factor on this character, as soon as something turns around to hit you at higher levels your toast.

and yeah i was thinking about the dex to con thing but i needed the 15 for dual wield and im just wearing this trinket that gives +1 dex +5 concentration +10 health or something. As a fun side bonus my anarchy bow I got from a quest recently is effective with that much dex and when im low on health i start ranging things with about 20 damage per hit which I thought was okay for a bow.

What do you have, maybe 77 hp or so? Maybe 115 by 16th if your lucky? Its not enough to melee. You may die often and people may come to know you for it if you are not careful.
.

as for the health it's currently at 118 not 70 so...

I will say that if melee is gonna be a focus you might think about two handed fighting because its cheaper and you will get a better bonus to hit, glancing blows and +50% str added to your damage.

actually I've tried the 2handed thing and it did not get anywhere close to as much damage as my dual wield thing, and it was my fighter friends best weapon we've got in the party for two handed weapons. Maybe because I didn't put feats into 2handed like i did for dual weap.

and yeah see currently my worry is about the survivability at later levels, I have that armor that puts spell failure to 0% while still being heavy though i cant use it till 8 and once i flip on blur or displace I actually seem to hold up in the crowd fights without a healer...it's just i can only do that once or twice before I hit the "i should be careful" zone. However, my real intention was to continue purely as a wizard following steps of my first character but adding a bit of health and armor so he could take a hit if something stealthed hit him while the tank was up ahead. The other abilities were to give back up options, once i run out of spell points (being a wiz not a sorc cuz i really do love wiz more) I can shoot arrows or stand behind the enemy with the dual swords to help bring things down.

You think I should re-roll it, drop the dual and the dex and pick up con?

[transtemporal]

In the long term, I think that toon is probably gonna give you more grief than its worth OP. By the time you reach the vale of twilight the mobs hit pretty hard and your AC is not gonna count for **** so you're gonna be relying on damage mitigation like displace and stoneskin and even with those, hes gonna be hard for a healer to keep up. I'm sorry to say, but he looks like a re-roll to me.

The ideal would be the same thing, except with the captains stats, warforged, THF and pick up quicken. When you start to take a bunch of damage, drop a quickened, maximised, empowered reconstruct on yourself and keep swinging.

[pariahspade]

what if I just dropped down into acting purely as a wizard by that point would it be survivable? because my pure wizard of the same level has 74 health while this one has over a hundred. Maybe once later game comes by just focus all my equipment and spells more toward wizardry over melee and just keep the fighter level to keep my health up and stuff? With fred the feat exchanges wouldn't be too hard since I don't really spend the money I have on anything anyways and I have the shards he wants in the bank for no reason.

Or do you think it's really worth it to lose the dual, bows, and dex in general for a jacked up Con even if I intend to switch into pure wizardry later on? because i think at that point my con wouldn't save me from two hits anyways.

[captain1z]

You think I should re-roll it, drop the dual and the dex and pick up con?

Your character, you play how you want but think about this. How much will you invest to be able to melee and how well will you be able to do it?

- you put a heavy investment in Dex to dual wield but you are also str based as far as attacks go. These points came from Cha, wis, con and some Int.

cha means no UMD and less ability to heal yourself. Potions are you only option. which is fine I guess.
Wis means no will saves, not a huge deal on a caster and you can work around it
Con means less hp and lower fort saves. The right items can cover this up. Get a posion + deathblock item ASAP
Int is either 19 with a +3 item or 22 if u didnt add one. Most wizards have that between 3rd and 5th level its gonna hurt your DC's and lower your SP but.... you can work around that also. Direct damage spells.

Level up attribute points.... do they go to str to increase your melee ability? Dex so you qualify for better 2 weapon options? Int so you can function better as a caster? What effect does this have on the stats you do not increase and the ability it supports.

What will your bonus to hit be? Wizard BAB is very low (as will your attack speed be) Tensers Transformation can help here. What will your end AC be?

There is a lot you need to think about. I tend to grab a piece of paper and try to project all these things before I ever roll my characters...... try it now and take a guess at what you will be like.



If you must have everything in your current build but a more functional build would not the following work a little better:

Human (Warforged ideally) Ranger 6/ wizard 14 (Tempest Wizard MRK I)

str - 16 (+2 rams +6 item +2 self rage = 26 str this is on par with many rangers and some palis)
dex - 12 (+2 ranger + 6 item = 20 or 19 if ranger is only 1 but a tome will correct that = respectable dex)
con - 14 (+6 item = 20 minimum for a melee and still survivable)
int - 18 (+3 wiz +6 item + 5 level up = 32 minimum endgame int for a wiz)
wis - 8
cha - 8
* human can add +1 to two different attributes. WF gets +2 Con
Gets- Bow str, 2weapon fighting, many-shot, imp. 2weapon fighting, rapid shot, Rams might, all granted + access to Tempest
( you dont have to have the dex requirement when you get it for being a ranger)

Favored enemy Evil outsider + 1 other

Fully functioning level 14 wiz with 7th level spells and if a warforged will have the ability to heal himself

greater Hero, haste, displace, blur, firewall and more this build could rock with the big boys.... looks gimpy at 1st glance but you could prove many wrong. He can melee or sling spells and wand heal.


Down side is you will be starved for feats.

wiz feats - extend, max, empower
human feat - toughness
character feats - dodge, mobility, spring attack, mental toughness, oversized, quicken, power attack (WF trade power attack for toughness)

[pariahspade]

is there a spot your looking at all this stuff like future item bonuses that im not really getting? Because I tried to pen out the character before I made it but all I had to go with was the class and race pages on the compendium so it was kinda rough work. Or is it just widely assumed that you'll eventually get a +6 item etc. etc.

[captain1z]

is there a spot your looking at all this stuff like future item bonuses that im not really getting? Because I tried to pen out the character before I made it but all I had to go with was the class and race pages on the compendium so it was kinda rough work. Or is it just widely assumed that you'll eventually get a +6 item etc. etc.

You will trip over +6 items once you hit a certain level.....most people have so many they tend to give them away for nothing. I can barely run a quest in gianthold without getting a few.

I didnt put anything in that quick write up you cant get just by leveling naturally. If we wanna talk grind items he would look even better but none of it is absolutely needed.

If you have any questions, post em, I ll check back tomorrow but I wanna get in 2 or 3 hrs of game time b4 bed.

I almost never post builds that require uber rare loot but the builds will always benefit and improve if you get any by chance. I play semi-casual and dont have a ton of stuff myself but by new player or unlucky player standards Ive got a nice stash....... so I know what its like and what the reasonable expectation should be.

[pariahspade]

alright thanks.

I was looking through the characters I have and seeing how to rig up a new one and I have to ask just how does constitution effect your health. Because my character that has 14 has 62 health and this one with 10 has 118, which makes it look a bit less effective to have the more con. Does it give you the same amount of health per level equal to con?

[Varr]

I like 17/3 wiz/monk better..... But if I was rolling a 28 pt 18/2 wiz/melée it would be

18/2 wiz/rogue
12 16 14 14 8 12
Feats: least em healing 1, extend 2 wiz, toughness 3, two weapon fighting 6+empower 6 wiz, leasser em healing 9, max 11 wiz, greater healing mark 12, improved two weapon fighting 15, heighten or enlarge 17 wiz, ic pierce 18.

Rogue levels one and.....12ish.

Level ups into str and focus on dps spells and buffs and banishment.

[captain1z]

alright thanks.

I was looking through the characters I have and seeing how to rig up a new one and I have to ask just how does constitution effect your health. Because my character that has 14 has 62 health and this one with 10 has 118, which makes it look a bit less effective to have the more con. Does it give you the same amount of health per level equal to con?

Im not very good with long term HP calculation but I will get as close as I can............. also some more info would be helful to myself and anyone else who is more knowledgable and wants to chime in on this.


Im going to guess that the character with 14 con and 62 hp is a wizard and probably about the same level

20 (heroic durability) + 14 (con bonus x level) + 28 ( wizhd4 x 7 levels) = 62 (bang! looks like Im dead on here)

your 6 wiz/ 1 fighter has 10 con so..............

20 (heroic durability) + 0 (con bonus x level) + 24 (wizhd4 x 6 levels) + 10 (fighterhd10 x 1 levels) + 9 (toughness) +10 (fighter toughness enhancement) +10 (false life item you said u have)+20 (human toughness enhancement teir 2) = 103 diff is 15 (and I dont know where it comes from- best guess is you are wearing a rr human +4 con item but that is a long shot- In the words of Dr Holmes ..strip away the impossible and whatever is left no matter how improbable is likely the truth.....but 1 other possibilty still exists)

If you give me your characters names I could look them up on MyDDO and check, I think you may be mistaken.

[captain1z]

How HP's work

Each character gets a free feat called Heroic Durability which grants +20 hp

Each class gets a certain amount of HP per level:

- barbarians/12
- fighters/10
- rangers/8
- rogues/6
- wiz+sorc/4
- cleric+FVS/
- bard/

Toughness adds 3 hp + 1 per level
some classes (melee mostly) get enhancements that grant an extra +10 hp if you have toughness each teir or the enhancement ..... some races get it as well (they all might actually)


Your constituion bonus is added to your HP every level..... so if you have 20 con the bonus is +5 and at level 10 thats a +50 bonus to HP

Items like
lesser false life +5
false life +10
Impr. false life +20
greater false life +30

It all adds up over time:

Toughness at 10th level adds 12 hp which is like having a constitution of 12.
A constition of 14 at 10th gives you an increase of 20 hp (16 con = +30) which hopefully shows you why higher con is more desirable.

[transtemporal]

what if I just dropped down into acting purely as a wizard by that point would it be survivable?

Yes he probably would but then the question becomes: would he be effective as a caster? To be able to do wizardy stuff like banish, web, finger of death etc effectively you need as high an int as possible for your spell DCs. Really, that means unless you started your guy with 18 int and put all your level up points into int, thats probably not a viable path.

Another option might be to focus only on buffs and spells that don't rely on DC (like firewall, irresistible dance, solid fog etc). These spells don't rely on a maxed out int, so you can get away with having a lower score. This is the strategy I went with my warforged wiz14/rog2/bbn1. While he was a blast to play he could only really do half of what my pure caster could do. I found it very frustrating. The traps, evasion and melee capability didn't quite make up for the loss of spell capability in my mind.

But at the end of the day, its your toon dude. Do whatever you think would be fun. You'll learn what works for you and what doesn't.

Or do you think it's really worth it to lose the dual, bows, and dex in general for a jacked up Con even if I intend to switch into pure wizardry later on? because i think at that point my con wouldn't save me from two hits anyways.

To give you an idea, I personally try to aim for about 300hp on a caster at 16th level. This gives me enough of a cushion to play aggressively and occasionally goof off. Why 16th? Because we'd been at the level 16 cap forever so all my hp ranges are calibrated against 16th level, lol.

human wiz16
20 Heroic blah blah (whatever the 1st level bonus is called)
64 Wizard (16x4)
112 Con bonus (16x7, 24 con = 18 base+6 item)
10 Draconic Vitality (Agents of the Argonessen 150 favor reward)
30 Gtr false life belt (available from level11 onwards)
18 Toughness feat
20 Racial toughness II enhancement
20 Minos Legend helm
====
294hp

[pariahspade]

oh hey your right captain the health is just sitting at 103, maybe it was 117 after some buff or something it was just the first number into my head. I didn't know you could just look the character up his name is Jinxiate, Aetharas is the pure wizard if you wanted to look that over for comparison.


transtemp I kinda get what you mean, the everytime i get to spend stat points I do put it into int and i go through effort to find little items along the way to put into it. Though the starting int he had was 16 instead of 18 to save on the 6 points so I could drop it into dex, so far the dual wield is still going quite nicely over 2-handed. The reason I didn't figure to max out int was the extra 1 to modifier didn't sound too effective because my normal wizard I put all this effort into maxing out int still has enemies getting way too many saves. Though in retrospect maybe I shoulda spent more time into getting him int items, at level 7 his is at 21.