lamania monk stunning fist change.

[manfredshw]

In lamania monk stunning fist can insert attack chain.
But only one attack roll, you lost one attack hook.
Why?

You can test it, with full twf chain, monk can attack 10times per chain.

But when you use stunning fist in the chain, you can only attack 9times.

And when you equip weapons in your hand, you can't use stunning fist anymore, it said wrong weapon type. this is good.
But when you use quivering palm, you still lost 30ki, and no attack, no animation, just like mod8 now.

Why turbine only fix this problem in stunning fist, but forgot about quivering palm?

I had submited a bug report with detailed info, hope I can get a feedback from DEV.

I hope you guys who have monk in lamania, just spare some time to test these to see if I am wrong, maybe I am too careless to have a wrong idea.

[MrCow]

monk stunning fist can insert attack chain.
But only one attack roll, you lost one attack hook.
Why?

The reason is because attack hooks were never added to the palm-strike animation that both stunning fist and quivering palm use. That animation isn't part of the standard attack chain, so it is possible it was overlooked. I don't know if this was done out of neglect or other motives, but that is why you only get a single strike with stunning fist and quivering palm.

[baddax]

Sounds like more monk HaterAde from turbine.IMO.

[BlackRage]

In lamania monk stunning fist can insert attack chain.
But only one attack roll, you lost one attack hook.
Why?

You can test it, with full twf chain, monk can attack 10times per chain.

But when you use stunning fist in the chain, you can only attack 9times.

And when you equip weapons in your hand, you can't use stunning fist anymore, it said wrong weapon type. this is good.
But when you use quivering palm, you still lost 30ki, and no attack, no animation, just like mod8 now.

Why turbine only fix this problem in stunning fist, but forgot about quivering palm?

Turbine never actually fixes problems - they simply create other ones with their lazy attitude. Nevertheless since both QP and SF are supposed to work with QS & Kamas the fact that they do NOT is the real issue – and ‘fixing’ it so one no longer costs you Ki is about a shoddy as it comes.

Sounds like more monk HaterAde from turbine.IMO.

+1 Word.

[vyvy3369]

Nevertheless since both QP and SF are supposed to work with QS & Kamas the fact that they do NOT is the real issue – and ‘fixing’ it so one no longer costs you Ki is about a shoddy as it comes.

I don't think we're talking about the same abilities...

DDO Compendium:

A swift unarmed attack to vulnerable areas that cause your target to be stunned for a short period of time.

SRD:

Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack...

Quivering Palm unfortunately doesn't make such a clear distinction, but it's fairly clear from the name and description of Stunning Fist what the intent was.

[BlackRage]

I don't think we're talking about the same abilities...

DDO Compendium:


SRD:


Quivering Palm unfortunately doesn't make such a clear distinction, but it's fairly clear from the name and description of Stunning Fist what the intent was.

We are... Here read this, taking special note of the BOLD parts:

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

So yes, a Monk is supposed to be able to SF & QP while using QS and Kamas, thanks.

[vyvy3369]

We are... Here read this, taking special note of the BOLD parts:



So yes, a Monk is supposed to be able to SF & QP while using QS and Kamas, thanks.

Not following...where in there does it say that a Quarterstaff or any other special monk weapon counts as an unarmed strike? Yeah, you can Flurry with those, but I think we all knew that already.

Edit: to be a bit clearer, Stunning Fist quite clearly states that it must be made with an unarmed attack. Yes, you can use Quarterstaff & special monk weapons to Flurry, but I can't recall ever seeing anything that states they count as "unarmed" attacks for the purposes of monk special attacks.

Edit2: Never mind, I think I see your point. Yeah, if DDO were coded differently, you could make an unarmed strike while holding a special weapon.

[Impaqt]

We are... Here read this, taking special note of the BOLD parts:



So yes, a Monk is supposed to be able to SF & QP while using QS and Kamas, thanks.

That exerpt from the SRD doesnt say anything about Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm. Thats al about Flurry of Blows.... WHich does indeed work just fine with Quarterstaves and Kamas.

Thanks.

Heres the Stunning Fist Description.
Stunning Fist [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit
You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

Special
A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.

A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feats.

You can make a case that Quivering Palm should work regardless of the weapon and I'd probobly agree.. There doesnt seem to be any mention of it even being a specific weapon/Unarmed based attack in the srd.

[vyvy3369]

That exerpt from the SRD doesnt say anything about Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm. Thats al about Flurry of Blows.... WHich does indeed work just fine with Quarterstaves and Kamas.

Thanks.

Just to clarify since I was editing my post, I think what he's saying is that we should be able to make unarmed attacks while holding onto another weapon. Not using the Quarterstaff or monk weapon to deliver the blow, but to make an unarmed strike with another body part. It could get a bit shady since the flavor of both indicates it should be your fist making the hit, but the rules aren't worded that way.

[bobbryan2]

Just to clarify since I was editing my post, I think what he's saying is that we should be able to make unarmed attacks while holding onto another weapon. Not using the Quarterstaff or monk weapon to deliver the blow, but to make an unarmed strike with another body part. It could get a bit shady since the flavor of both indicates it should be your fist making the hit, but the rules aren't worded that way.

Even if monks have weapons in their hands, they are allowed to make unarmed attacks whenever they want. This is because monk 'unarmed' combat simply means any attack that doesn't use weapons, including elbows, knees, feet, head, etc.

You can make quivering palms or stunning fists with weapons in your hand, because you can attack with unarmed strikes whenever you want.

So yeah... you're supposed to be able to.

[bobbryan2]

That exerpt from the SRD doesnt say anything about Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm. Thats al about Flurry of Blows.... WHich does indeed work just fine with Quarterstaves and Kamas.

Thanks.

Monks can always choose to attack unarmed even if both hands are full. Therefore... they always should have the option to use attacks that require being unarmed.

It's all there in the rules.

Thanks.

[Impaqt]

Monks can always choose to attack unarmed even if both hands are full. Therefore... they always should have the option to use attacks that require being unarmed.

It's all there in the rules.

Thanks.

We all have our own ways of interpreting the rules of PnP. I never ran with a monk in PnP, but I personally would not allow a Monk to use Stunning Fist with a Kama in his hand. Of course, Dropping the kama in PnP is a little easier to do than it is in DDO.

Remeber though, this isnt PnP.. this DDO, and if Turbine says youc ant Stunning Fist or Quivering palm with a Kama.. Then we cant...... Theres no "Supposed to" about it.

[bobbryan2]

We all have our own ways of interpreting the rules of PnP. I never ran with a monk in PnP, but I personally would not allow a Monk to use Stunning Fist with a Kama in his hand. Of course, Dropping the kama in PnP is a little easier to do than it is in DDO.

Remeber though, this isnt PnP.. this DDO, and if Turbine says youc ant Stunning Fist or Quivering palm with a Kama.. Then we cant...... Theres no "Supposed to" about it.

There's no other way to interpret the rules.

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

How do you interpret that differently? It's all there, plain as day, black and white, clear as crystal. Monks may make unarmed strikes with hands full. Special abilities require an unarmed strike... therefore... it's very easy... you can make special attacks with your HANDS FULL.

It doesn't matter what is in your hands. You can still do whatever special attacks you want.

Good day sir.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9gRzmCf1EI

You can argue that this isn't DnD, if you want. But that's a weak argument, and you know it. I'm not arguing that it is this way currently, I'm just saying it should be this way if pnp is to be followed to the letter.

[toughguyjoe]

What people are missing is that if you have a q-staff or a kama in your hand you are doing the damage for that weapon type.

The devs would have to essentially code an auto switch when you trigger that attack, and since that is something they have not done and probably haven't really thought about, I doubt we'll see Stunning fist or Quivering Palm usable with weapons in hand.

Its easy to throw a punch with a q-staff in your hand in PNP. Its another thing to ask the guys who are working to get mod 9 going to put some people on recoding a monk ability.

I think that when they decide to take a look a fixing monks they're going to do alot at once. You guys just have to be patient. Or rather MORE patient.

Sorry if that doesn't sound like fun.

[bobbryan2]

What people are missing is that if you have a q-staff or a kama in your hand you are doing the damage for that weapon type.

The devs would have to essentially code an auto switch when you trigger that attack, and since that is something they have not done and probably haven't really thought about, I doubt we'll see Stunning fist or Quivering Palm usable with weapons in hand.

Its easy to throw a punch with a q-staff in your hand in PNP. Its another thing to ask the guys who are working to get mod 9 going to put some people on recoding a monk ability.

I think that when they decide to take a look a fixing monks they're going to do alot at once. You guys just have to be patient. Or rather MORE patient.

Sorry if that doesn't sound like fun.

Seems pretty easy to recode to me. Just use the QS or kama damage. I'd take less damage if it meant it actually worked like it was supposed to. The damage is pretty inconsequential when talking about special attacks like that.

[vyvy3369]

Seems pretty easy to recode to me. Just use the QS or kama damage. I'd take less damage if it meant it actually worked like it was supposed to. The damage is pretty inconsequential when talking about special attacks like that.

Less damage? Un-enhanced (no handwraps after all) unarmed strike vs. pretty much any magical weapon you're likely to be using, I'm fairly certain you'd be doing more with the magical weapon, especially in DDO.

Also, that would be the opposite of making it work like it's supposed to, since you'd then be deviating from both the PnP & DDO rules.

[Impaqt]

Seems pretty easy to recode to me. Just use the QS or kama damage. I'd take less damage if it meant it actually worked like it was supposed to. The damage is pretty inconsequential when talking about special attacks like that.

They havent been able to figure out Greensteel handwraps for 4 mods now. and now thats an "Easy Change" Good luck... And people were having caniptions over 3d6 instead of 2d10 Damage at level 20.... now youwant them tio take 1d6 instead of 2d10? Good luck with that too.




I stand corrected on the PnP Stunning fist.. Last time I checked I couldnt dictate in DDo which appendage I wanted to swing with at what time..... So I will have to say Turbine gets to do with it as they wish.

[bobbryan2]

They havent been able to figure out Greensteel handwraps for 4 mods now. and now thats an "Easy Change" Good luck...

Stunning blow works pretty well without a check to see if the user is unarmed.

Nah... couldn't be that easy.

[Impaqt]

Stunning blow works pretty well without a check to see if the user is unarmed.

Nah... couldn't be that easy.

Why exactly would you need both then? Just drop Stunnign fist fromt he feat list and substitute stunning blow....

if you Unarmed, You should get your Unarmed damage when utilizing the attack.

[bobbryan2]

Less damage? Un-enhanced (no handwraps after all) unarmed strike vs. pretty much any magical weapon you're likely to be using, I'm fairly certain you'd be doing more with the magical weapon, especially in DDO.

Also, that would be the opposite of making it work like it's supposed to, since you'd then be deviating from both the PnP & DDO rules.

If by "opposite of working like it's supposed to," you meant "a closer approximation of the pnp rules," then I wholey agree with you.

3d6 base damage on an unarmed strike... I'm gonna say that's gonna do more damage than a magical weapon 3 out of 4 times. Sure, it's got a lousy crit profile... but we're not talking about damage over time... we're talking about damage on a given punch. Most of the time the unarmed strike would win.

Besides.. it's a miniscule difference. The big change is actually 'allowing' the attack to happen.