Barbarian vs. Fighter

[Yargore]

2d3. That is all

It's 4d3 with TWF.

[SneakThief]

It's 4d3 with TWF.

So you play with funky math AND funky english?

Barbs DR is kind of a moot point considering that with frenzy they will take 4d3 self damage per swing.

Nope ... I'm still right ... its only 2d3 per swing

Anyway ... Comparing hasted TWF Dorfs with Min2 DAs and bloodstones and asumming 10 dmg/swing in party buffs:
K3 is better when you account Powersurge AND 20 seconds of Fighter haste boost 4.
K3 = 389 dmg/sec amd FB = 366 dmg/sec

But ... Haste 4 is a short lived (20 sec) limited clicky with a cool down (30 sec), while the Frenzy clicky is niether short lived nor limited and has no cool down.

If you remove Haste 4 (but still have power surge):
K3 = 299

And if you remove Frenzy all together (removing the self damage) you get
FB3 = 297

At best you can maintain 7(?) 20 second boosts (140 seconds) over a period of 210 seconds (1/3 reduction), with a 1-2 second interruption in your swing progression every 30 seconds.
That brings haste to a 20% increase for under 2 minutes, making K3 = 359 for 210 seconds and FB3 = 366 as long as there is healing ... Win FB3. And thats not even counting the missing swings while boosting which will affect K3 much more.

Now, take into account that on hard and elite, Harry takes more than 210 second ... Sally always takes more than 210 seconds ... and the new content requires a LOT of prolonged beat downs ....

Im not going to say Barbarians are better than Fighters in general .... but as far as DPS in mod 9, FB3 is better than K3 for boss fights. And for trash that you dont power boost/ haste boost or frenzy, FB3 still wins. Now if they up the AC of things where we arent all hitting on 2s ... as Eladin said, Kensai will shine.

PS - the less party buff to base damage the more FB3 wins. Using 20% for 210 seconds, it took 24 pts of buff damage for K3 and FB3 to equal out. I also included the rage Spell, and double madstone. If you remove those (base damage), it skews further in favor of FB3

PPS - THF skews this further towards FB3

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Nope ... I'm still right ... its only 2d3 per swing

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166084
Yar was speaking about TWF, he always is unless specifically said so.
1 swing with TWF = 2 blows. 2 blows = 1d3(vicious)+1d3(greater vicious) * 2(number of attacks)
So, 4d3 per TWF swing. Or, 2d3 per weapon attack.

[SneakThief]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166084
Yar was speaking about TWF, he always is unless specifically said so.
1 swing with TWF = 2 blows. 2 blows = 1d3(vicious)+1d3(greater vicious) * 2(number of attacks)
So, 4d3 per TWF swing. Or, 2d3 per weapon attack.

More of the funky english .... ok ... I apologize ... I'm accustomed to people that are arguing numbers using a specific set of terminology on these forums. In all previous calculations of damage in other threads, referring to swing acutally means "attack", as in DPS = Damage per swing (vs DPS = Damage per second). I didnt look at yalls join dates and just assumed you were using the constant point of reference. Refering to swing as an animation swing is nonsensical because a "swing" does not correlate to directly to a number of attacks (2 or otherwise), as the number of attacks an animation swing represents is variable dependent on the feat chain and enhancements.

Its 2d3 per attack ... so the statment that its 4d3 per swing is still ONLY true IF you get 2 attacks per swing. Happy?

In the future there are two standards used in the forums for damage calculations ... both called DPS.
-Damage per swing (actually attack) is used to compare things independent of attack speeds. This is mostly used comparing weapons if the same type (Ex: 2 different shroud DAs)
-Damage per second uses the attack rates per minute in the calculations. This is useful between builds and between weapons with different speeds

PS - its only 2 attacks per animation on all swings if you have GTWF, so your statement that "TWF = 2 blows" is incorrect.

[cforce]

i'd like to see some comparison numbers for frenzy vs kensai.

Just a pointer in case you haven't already seen it: gfunk has done a lot of work getting specific numbers under lots of conditions over in this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

A must-read, if you haven't seen it already, for deciding who has the most DPS in the situations you care about.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

More of the funky english .... ok ... I apologize ... I'm accustomed to people that are arguing numbers making sense. In all previous and accurate calculations of damage in other threads, referring to swing acutally means "attack", as in DPS = Damage per swing (vs DPS = Damage per second). I didnt look at yalls join dates and just assumed you were using the constant point of reference. Refering to swing as an animation swing is nonsensical because a "swing" does not correlate to directly to a number of attacks (2 or otherwise), as the number of attacks an animation swing represents is variable dependent on the feat chain and enhancements.

I was one of the first posters to ever begin with DPS calculations on the DDO forums. And I refer to DPS as damage per second, as does most MMO players out there. And swing obviously means a swing animation, not a single weapon attack. As one SWING in ddo = 2 attacks with GTWF, which I and everyone else assumes on a TWF barbarian. Only to a fool would you have to explain such a basic thing into such detail.

PS: read my sig. "EU player since release, US player since the summer of 2009." Don't assume someone is new just because their forum account is from 2009.

Its 2d3 per attack ... so the statment that its 4d3 per swing is still ONLY true IF you get 2 attacks per swing. Happy?

Which you do with GTWF; and as this is a discussion about DPS originally the only real way to compare is to have GTWF, so one swing is 2 attacks with a DPS character.

I thought no one would ever miss-interept this, but it appears that I was wrong.

Bottom line:
A TWF barbarian aiming to have high dps always takes 2d3 self damage on each attack, or 4d3 damage each swing animation. Which was Yargore's original statement.

EDIT: I was wrong to assume that you knew anything about dps, so I didn't post it into such basic details earlier.

[SneakThief]

I was one of the first posters to ever begin with DPS calculations on the DDO forums.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Speak naught of what you do not know.

Well, technically you didn't say anything. But we both know that was an obvious troll by a clueless person.

[Yargore]

More of the funky english .... ok ... I apologize ... I'm accustomed to people that are arguing numbers using a specific set of terminology on these forums. In all previous calculations of damage in other threads, referring to swing acutally means "attack", as in DPS = Damage per swing (vs DPS = Damage per second). I didnt look at yalls join dates and just assumed you were using the constant point of reference. Refering to swing as an animation swing is nonsensical because a "swing" does not correlate to directly to a number of attacks (2 or otherwise), as the number of attacks an animation swing represents is variable dependent on the feat chain and enhancements.

Its 2d3 per attack ... so the statment that its 4d3 per swing is still ONLY true IF you get 2 attacks per swing. Happy?

In the future there are two standards used in the forums for damage calculations ... both called DPS.
-Damage per swing (actually attack) is used to compare things independent of attack speeds. This is mostly used comparing weapons if the same type (Ex: 2 different shroud DAs)
-Damage per second uses the attack rates per minute in the calculations. This is useful between builds and between weapons with different speeds

PS - its only 2 attacks per animation on all swings if you have GTWF, so your statement that "TWF = 2 blows" is incorrect.

I thougth it was very obvious to anyone reading these forums that a DPS TWF barb have the full TWF line.
With GTWF you get 2 attacks per swing. That how it's generaly precived.
So I when you say that it's not 4d3 per swing you are indeed wrong.

Yes, the statement that it's 4d3 per swing is only true if you get 2 attack per swing (GTWF). It's really so obvious that I did not think I would have to explain it.

I'm sorry that I got you confused. I assumed that everyone knew that GTWF gave 2 hits per swing and that every twf barb have gtwf.

[SneakThief]

PS: read my sig. "EU player since release, US player since the summer of 2009." Don't assume someone is new just because their forum account is from 2009.

Well ... please go back and reaquaint yourself with the DPS threads on the US forums. It will avoid any further confusion with US posters.

Speak naught of what you do not know.

Well, technically you didn't say anything. But we both know that was an obvious troll by a clueless person.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Well ... please go back and reaquaint yourself with the DPS threads on the US forums. It will avoid any further confusion with US posters.

Hah, it was me and Yargore that started the whole dps-calc trend you know . I've been following Gfunks TWF dps thread from the start.

[SneakThief]

I'm sorry that I got you confused. I assumed that everyone knew that GTWF gave 2 hits per swing and that every twf barb have gtwf.

The only thing confusing me is why you think anyone would understand you when using your own made up terminolgy that is different that the established terminology already in use. When talking about damage comparisons, the predominant use of "swing" on these boards, since release, has equated to attack.
Additionally, the game rules are base on D&D (not WoW) in which a swing equals an attack, which is the point of reference many people here come from.

Hah, it was me and Yargore that started the whole dps-calc trend you know . I've been following Gfunks TWF dps thread from the start.

[Comfortably]

Hah, it was me and Yargore that started the whole dps-calc trend you know . I've been following Gfunks TWF dps thread from the start.

”It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.”
- William G. McAdoo

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The only thing confusing me is why you think anyone would understand you when using your own made up terminolgy that is different that the established terminology already in use. When talking about damage comparisons, the predominant use of "swing" on these boards, since release, has equated to attack.
Additionally, the game rules are base on D&D (not WoW) in which a swing equals an attack, which is the point of reference many people here come from.

Once again, you fail. As "swing" has always been refered to as one animation, and for TWF that is 2 attacks.

Trolling is against the forum rules.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

”It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.”
- William G. McAdoo

QFT.

On a side note, link the first calculation that you can find to date, that started a trend. And I will link mine. (God it will be a hassle to go through all my posts on the EU boards)

And as a second note, all this DPS talk originally started with The Monster, and guess who made the Monster and did those calculations?

[Comfortably]

And as a second note, all this DPS talk originally started with The Monster, and guess who made the Monster and did those calculations?

Aax did, of course!

[Psyk0sisS]

I've never ever heard of DPS = Damage per SWING. DPS, from what I've always heard and to anyone I've ever talked to regarding DPS, means Damage Per Second.

[Comfortably]

I've never ever heard of DPS = Damage per SWING. DPS, from what I've always heard and to anyone I've ever talked to regarding DPS, means Damage Per Second.

No, you're all wrong. DPS stands for, Deaths per second. Duh.

[Yargore]

I've never ever heard of DPS = Damage per SWING. DPS, from what I've always heard and to anyone I've ever talked to regarding DPS, means Damage Per Second.

I guess that when people say that Barbs have higher DPS than fighters they mean damage per swing and not damage per second

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I've never ever heard of DPS = Damage per SWING. DPS, from what I've always heard and to anyone I've ever talked to regarding DPS, means Damage Per Second.

Indeed.

If people was running around abbrevating damage per swing to DPS then all the calcs and everyone opinion would be that
Paladin deals the most DP(Swing). But we're not running around saying that, we're running around saying Rogues deals the most DP(Second).