Ranged DPS

[VKhaun]

Our good advice all along was "don't make a ranged DPSer". There's not a single better piece of advice when the subject of ranged DPS advice is breached.

It's like if someone comes to you and asks you how to best perform suicide. Wouldn't you try to talk them out of it? The only difference here is that sometimes death is favorable. Ranged DPS is NEVER favorable.

Although you tempt me to continue a horrible analogy, this is about open-mindedness. If somone has the mindset of 'I want to DPS' sure, you tell them roll something else, but if someone has the mindset of 'I want to be an archer', you would in fact be best serving them (after the overall warning) by helping to show that you really REALLY need to maximize your DPS in every little way and play intelligently to even come close to being effective.

Not everyone has been playing for years and only drags themselves through again and again to see bigger numbers on subscreens. Some of us actually still enjoy the act of playing various characters, rather then simply drawing satisfaction from faster completions or reduction in tactics/difficulty.

[96th_Malice]

Our good advice all along was "don't make a ranged DPSer". There's not a single better piece of advice when the subject of ranged DPS advice is breached.

It's like if someone comes to you and asks you how to best perform suicide. Wouldn't you try to talk them out of it? The only difference here is that sometimes death is favorable. Ranged DPS is NEVER favorable.

Ummm depends ? Are you asking ??



You know I do see your points BECAUSE you are probably good at building your Cleric Monks and Barbarians

I am not !!

What it comes down to, really .. Let him play the game how he wants to play it with the toon that he wants. If he wants to build a Ranged toon !! Cool !!

If he nerfs it and decides that Ranging isnt for him, thats up to him to decide.

Its not for you to say Ranged is Gimped !! or Don't build that Ranged toon !!

Ranged Class is great

AND it's being made better

So in the meantime there is NO harm in him starting a toon now right ?

He's asking for help on " how to" NOT "hey guys PLEASE talk me out of this ! "

Just my thoughts

PS: I wonder if I can spend my turbine points to have you NOT show up in a Ranged conversation here on the forums ? hehe

[halls]

I could say the same about Battle Clerics !

We are in agreement 1 rep to you!

[96th_Malice]

We are in agreement 1 rep to you!

LOL

1 for you too !!

[Demoyn]

PS: I wonder if I can spend my turbine points to have you NOT show up in a Ranged conversation here on the forums ? hehe

You don't even have to spend Turbine points for this. There's a forum ignore feature that you could use on me. I don't know where it's located exactly because I fear ignoring someone and then missing half of the conversation (plus I love laughing at stupid people), but it's there somewhere!

[96th_Malice]

You don't even have to spend Turbine points for this. There's a forum ignore feature that you could use on me. I don't know where it's located exactly because I fear ignoring someone and then missing half of the conversation (plus I love laughing at stupid people), but it's there somewhere!

Naww man !

Its all good, If everyone had the same opinion here it would get boring fast !!

Have a good night bro !

[munglee]

LOL i should have named the thread sumthing else instead of ranged DPS. sumthing more along the lines of....maximizing Multishot damage...or i dont kite but i like to use multishot on big reds...i like seeing big numbers and lots of em.

[Demoyn]

...i like seeing big numbers and lots of em.

Then try a two weapon fighting smite paladin.

[96th_Malice]

Then try a two weapon fighting smite paladin.

OR ... Do what I do !

A 14th Pally / 2 Ranger with a Triple Positive Bow !!



hehe sorry bro, had to get that in there !!

For the record this toon (danya) is 100% gimped while manyshot is on its cooldown !

BUT in my defence, I blame that I tried to get ranged and melee outta the same toon ! And shes a 28 point build 3 year old toon and I had ZERO idea what I was doing !! I just dont have the heart to delete the toon cuae of the Triple Pos Bow

Oh well, rumor has it she's packing up for a move to another server !!

Later man

[Aerendil]

Going to have to jump in and second Talon's earlier comment - go pure Ranger if you can. Purely for the bow strength damage.

Being able to add on some crazy number such as +15 damage to each arrow does make a noticeable difference.
As does the Ranger 20 ranged alacrity bonus.

If/when the "Bow Strength" option becomes a feat choice for non-Rangers, then a pure Fighter build or even a Barb/Ftr or Paladin/Ftr or whatever build might be decent as well.

Until then, though, Rangers have a huge advantage. Which is unfortunate, because in the PnP versions it wasn't necessarily the case.

PS - if you want another "variant" build, maybe try out an Elven Bard 18 or 19/Ranger 1 or 2 Arcane Archer and max out your songs as much as you can. That could prove comparable damage to the fighter weapon spec damage or ranger favored enemy damage. Not to mention you'd have a fast movement rate (Exped. Retreat) for kiting when solo, as well as the benefits of having crowd control, displacement, buffs, haste, heals, etc.
Could probably still swing Virtuoso or Warchanter if you tried too, although feats would be very tight.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I've already said what I think the best choice for a ranged char is.
And I've already made a suggestion on where to go with a Ftr based Archer.
I have a lot of experiance with rangd chars in DDO.

Don't let the nay-sayers talk you out of a build you want.
Plenty of char slots to experiment with.

But from my experiance a one trick pony has too many weaknessess to be your main char, or a truly fulfilling one.

Monsters charge you when you shoot them with arrows. The more DPS you do the more monsters charge you.

When they do that, you have a couple options.
But if you choose the option of runing backwards away from your meleeing friends.....well, they won't be your friends very long....usually.

So even a ranged specced char needs to melee.....often.

That's what is great about pure Rgr...he can do both.
He might not be the best at both. (but he might be actually)
But he can do both well enough to be a very fun char to play.

Those Ftr wep spec feats are great. Ftr Kensei sounds great too.
But from my experiance, Manyshot and Improved Crit Ranged makes more of a difference than any other ranged feat.
Therefore. You can be an extremely good archer as a pue Rgr w/Improvd Crit Ranged.
And you can be good at melee too.
You can even use a shield when the situation calls for it.
You can buff.
You can sneak.
Rgrs are very versatile.....and fun.
If built that way anyway.

What I see though is a huge bios against ranged combat by many self-proclamed Uber players.
Many of them are indeed very good players whose chars put out a huge amount of DPS.
But I have always thought that the answer to every problem is not to hit it with a bigger hammer......or Brbs great axe....etc.

I find tactics to be very useful in DDO.
There are many kinds of tactics.
But one of them is to shoot it with a bow from a safe distance.
And another is to shoot the big guy with manyshot and do a ton of damage in a short time.

So whatever choice you make, don't let people tell you ranged combat is useless.
Gimped in many situations compared to melee maybe....
But not useless.

[96th_Malice]

I agree that monsters WILL charge you when you start using many shot with a bow !

AND

The ONLY way you are going to survive this is in fact to run backwards .. which yes will annoy your melee party members that they now have to chase around the foes that you have managed to aggro !

With that Said !!

DIPLO !!

Send em back to the tanks and you still get to range !!

For the record Fearsome Armor is another option but one I tend to shy away from in my last year or so of Archer-ing !!

Yes of course I want my foe as FAR away from me as possible and I have NO problems shooting him in the back when he runs away ! BUT I do find its not a great party tactic when the monster is feared from everything !

So if your in a Party Ranging --- Diplo

If you are running stuff by yourself -- Fearsome works well !!

[cpito]

<snip> The ONLY way you are going to survive this is in fact to run backwards .. which yes will annoy your melee party members that they now have to chase around the foes that you have managed to aggro !<snip>

This statement is so wrong, it hurts my brains. My gimp-assed ranged ranger has survived many a mob charge by continually running the mobs back to the melees by keeping it linear or at least running very small circles. Invest points in jump or at least cast that first level spell on yourself. Pull the mobs to a corner or wall and let your melee block them in... it's called tactics. It really truely is possible to range without annoying the **** out of your party members.

[96th_Malice]

This statement is so wrong, it hurts my brains. My gimp-assed ranged ranger has survived many a mob charge by continually running the mobs back to the melees by keeping it linear or at least running very small circles. Invest points in jump or at least cast that first level spell on yourself. Pull the mobs to a corner or wall and let your melee block them in... it's called tactics. It really truely is possible to range without annoying the **** out of your party members.

Ahh ya !

At no point did I say that I ran to aa different time zone in the game ... I said I run backwards. Yes I do pull them back through the melees, BUT unfortunaltly just cause I know what ranged ranger tactics are ..... does not mean the rest of my party does.

Trust me ! Guild Groups = Ranged Tactics Work !!

PUG = I hear CASSIEE STOP FREAKIN RUNNING alot !!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Perhaps this would be a good time to promote my recent post.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189167

[Weylan]

Not to mention that every thing the pro-archers said can be done just as well with a tempest ranger who picked up a bow... except tempest rangers excel in melee on top of that.

Not to mention that every thing the pro-tempesters said can be done just as well with an archer ranger who picked up a pair of blades... except archer rangers excel at range on top of that.

There really is not much different between 'tempest' and 'archer' rangers other than their feat choices, and I'm inclined to call it a wash (unless you think dodge/mobility/spring attack is such a huge bonus for a tempest ranger).

However, I will say that finding a tempest ranger willing to pull out a bow when appropriate is exceedingly hard. You get all those free ranged feats too, you know, when there's a caster perched up somewhere pull out a bow and shoot him in the eyeball instead of eating spells while you try to get close.

This applies to 'archer' rangers too, but most of the ones I've grouped with seem fine with switching to melee weapons when (if) the mobs get close.

[Angelus_dead]

Not to mention that every thing the pro-tempesters said can be done just as well with an archer ranger who picked up a pair of blades...

No, that is untrue. Combat results aren't that liquid, and since ranged has lower DPS anyhow, a marginally lower DPS is less of a penalty than it would be for melee.

You see, if I'm doing ranged combat with 20% less DPS than someone else, it takes me 20% more time spent kiting, which is not very important.
But if I go into melee with 20% less DPS, then that additional time spent can make the difference between the ogre getting 0 attacks and 3 attacks on me. Monster attacks are granular, so killing something 20% faster doesn't mean 20% fewer incoming attacks.

However, I will say that finding a tempest ranger willing to pull out a bow when appropriate is exceedingly hard.

That is untrue.

This applies to 'archer' rangers too, but most of the ones I've grouped with seem fine with switching to melee weapons when (if) the mobs get close.

That might be your experience, but it is not what normally happens, and it is not a rational behavior.

If an archer is shooting and switches to melee when a monster comes close, that means he's making one of two mistakes:
1. If ranged is more effective, then he should instead have run backwards and kept shooting.
2. If melee is more effective, then he should have been melee from the start and run forward to the mob.

Attempting to mix melee and ranged depending on the distance of the mob means paying a DPS tax from switching time, which outweighs the benefits of using the other style.

[Weylan]

Attempting to mix melee and ranged depending on the distance of the mob means paying a DPS tax from switching time, which outweighs the benefits of using the other style.

Only if you play by spreadsheet.

[Aranticus]

Ahh ya !

At no point did I say that I ran to aa different time zone in the game ... I said I run backwards. Yes I do pull them back through the melees, BUT unfortunaltly just cause I know what ranged ranger tactics are ..... does not mean the rest of my party does.

Trust me ! Guild Groups = Ranged Tactics Work !!

PUG = I hear CASSIEE STOP FREAKIN RUNNING alot !!

wrong. in a pug group, range, pull mobs in, switch to twf and the melee away. i read all your post on ranged. trust me, building a melee ranger will not gimped his ranged ability that much. there is really no point ranging something when your manyshot is on cooldown. so what are you going to do? run around like a headless chicken? pulling out 2 weapons and hitting the mob back is going to help more

[Aranticus]

Not to mention that every thing the pro-tempesters said can be done just as well with an archer ranger who picked up a pair of blades... except archer rangers excel at range on top of that.

There really is not much different between 'tempest' and 'archer' rangers other than their feat choices, and I'm inclined to call it a wash (unless you think dodge/mobility/spring attack is such a huge bonus for a tempest ranger).

a tempest ranger gets 10% melee alacrity which a non tempest does not have. 10% is a huge difference. more importantly, the tempest ranger is likely to have a higher strength and access to PA

However, I will say that finding a tempest ranger willing to pull out a bow when appropriate is exceedingly hard. You get all those free ranged feats too, you know, when there's a caster perched up somewhere pull out a bow and shoot him in the eyeball instead of eating spells while you try to get close.

that has got nothing to do with the build but rather the player. my tempest rangers have a full complement of bows which i use when MS is available

This applies to 'archer' rangers too, but most of the ones I've grouped with seem fine with switching to melee weapons when (if) the mobs get close.

actually i see more archer rangers not putting away their bows than melee rangers picking up bows