Bow Strength For Non-Rangers

[Asherons_Chosen]

Power attack only works w/ melee attacks right? Why would it be a prereq for bow str?

[Inspire]

A lot of fighters will have power attack anyway so I think Eladrin is throwing them an easy bone so they will pick up a bow every now and then.

I think most people who choose the Bow Strength route will probably choose Zen Archery. Not everyone taking this particular feat will be fighter, and on feat starved classes who have not splashed ranger and want to focus on ranged combat they may want something a little more synergetic.

[Cinwulf]

I'm ok with the current working version presented; the prereqs mean they will have to make sacrifices to get the bow str rangers get at lvl 1. Besides there's more to a ranger than bow strength.

Now, on a related issue, but seperate, here's hoping they fix ranged combat for everyone finally

[Yaga_Nub]

Why would you have cake and not eat it though?

'Cause you a fat bastage!

[Yaga_Nub]

I think most people who choose the Bow Strength route will probably choose Zen Archery.......

How can you make that statement already? Thousands of people that have characters already rolled up just waiting for Bow Str. and Zen Archery?

[sephiroth1084]

can we also add ....

Barbarian rage for non-barbarians
Bard song for non-bards
Trap disable for non-rogues
Pali auras for non-palis?


Class skill are the reason we choose those classes. You want bow strength? Milticlass one level in ranger. I personally don't think this should be changed. This is a class based game, not a skill/feat based game.

The above features are class-defining. They are the abilities around which the class and its enhancements/role are built, while Bow Str was a throw-away, a gimme, for the rangers, and has no other in-class support or justification. Removing Bow Str from rangers entirely would not alter the way a ranger is played in the least. Granting it as a feat for others to take does not have any affect upon the way rangers will be viewed, though it will open up character build options.

This is a class/skill/feat/enhancement based game. A character is not definied by their class, or combination of classes. They are defined by the total of their parts. For the former, look at 4E and, to a lesser extent, d20 Modern. Or WoW. One may changes the feats on a character and end up with a completely different model. That is not the representation of a class-based game.

[EDIT]

Getting everything on one character removes that need. Suddenly you can have your cake and eat it too.

What, like playing a RANGER? TWF, Archery, resists, protects, healing, poison and disease removal, movement skills, evasion, damage boosting, alacrity boosting, good saves, speed boosting.... How much don't they get?

[Inspire]

How can you make that statement already? Thousands of people that have characters already rolled up just waiting for Bow Str. and Zen Archery?

It was an educated guess, for example;

A level 20 Elf Bard who wants to be an Arcane Archer will want this feat(IMO) so he/she has to choose either;

• Power Attack,
• Combat Expertise
• Zen Archery

What would you pick if you wanted to focus on ranged combat(given that we dont know what Zen Archery entails yet, but it can be assumed it will benefit this combat style)?

[Yaga_Nub]

...
What, like playing a RANGER? TWF, Archery, resists, protects, healing, poison and disease removal, movement skills, evasion, damage boosting, alacrity boosting, good saves, speed boosting.... How much don't they get?

I've been telling everyone from day one that Ranger are UBAH!

[Borror0]

Power attack only works w/ melee attacks right?

Yup. Does not apply on ranged attacks.

Why would it be a prereq for bow str?

Makes little sense. Only to increase the cost, without requiring an useless feat, probably.

[sephiroth1084]

Yaga, my reasoning behind the prereqs I put forth are that the fighter only has 2 real trends or themes: specializing in a combat style/weapon and their special combat maneuvers (trip, stun, etc...). Thus, if a fighter chooses to devote himself to archery, he should be able to perform better than a ranger who just happens to wake up with the ability.

I'm sure Eladrin's initial prereq. set-up was arranged with the same thinking in mind as Reverand expressed: "We gave rangers this as a class feature, so non-rangers should have a harder time emulating it." The thing is, that the very nature of making it a feat with prereqs. already achieves such a goal.

Rangers are good archers even when they ignore archery and devote themselves exclusively to TWF, so I see no reason to overly penalize other characters who choose to focus on archery.

And, speaking from a game mechanics standpoint, there is no reason to do so. Allowing a fighter to gain Bow Str at level 2, or a rogue at level 3 will have almost the exact same impact on the game as a 1 ranger/1 fighter or rogue, or 1 ranger/2 fighter or rogue. It will not increase the power of archery, not at low level, nor over the course of the game. The ability already functions without problems at level 1, so its not like Manyshot, which really shouldn't be available right away.

Finally, the PnP issue. 'Nuff said.

[Aspenor]

What, like playing a RANGER? TWF, Archery, resists, protects, healing, poison and disease removal, movement skills, evasion, damage boosting, alacrity boosting, good saves, speed boosting.... How much don't they get?

They don't get ACTUAL spellcasting.

When/if druids are put in the game, they might have to change the title of the game to Dungeons & Druids: Online.

I might as well preface that with if druids are implemented as per RAW.

[Raiken]

It was an educated guess, for example;

A level 20 Elf Bard who wants to be an Arcane Archer will want this feat(IMO) so he/she has to choose either;

• Power Attack,
• Combat Expertise
• Zen Archery

What would you pick if you wanted to focus on ranged combat(given that we dont know what Zen Archery entails yet, but it can be assumed it will benefit this combat style)?

if it were my bard i would probably go for combat expertise, zen archery most likely wouldnt do anything for him, although for a cleric zen archery would go along way. if im gonna be focusing on ranged anyway my bard would really have no business picking up power attack.

[Aspenor]

i honestly think his idea only needs a couple minor tweaks.

make the prereqs strength 13, WF: Ranged OR PBS, & any one of Zen Archery, Multi-Shot or PS.

The idea is that if a non-ranger wants to use a bow, let them dedicate to the bow. I don't like PA being a possible prereq as it's not ranged-effective (unless they change that).

Cross posting my suggestion from the other thread.

[sephiroth1084]

if it were my bard i would probably go for combat expertise, zen archery most likely wouldnt do anything for him, although for a cleric zen archery would go along way. if im gonna be focusing on ranged anyway my bard would really have no business picking up power attack.

CE is probably nigh-worthless here also: you gain +1 AC over your non-bow-wielding self? As long as that self isn't using a shield. Or an off-hand +4 shroud weapon.

[Borror0]

Cross posting my suggestion from the other thread.

Cross posting my "I like that."

[sephiroth1084]

Cross posting my suggestion from the other thread.

I like it even better than my idea, though half the feats listed require PBS as a prereq. don't they (RS, MS)?

[Yaga_Nub]

It was an educated guess, for example;

A level 20 Elf Bard who wants to be an Arcane Archer will want this feat(IMO) so he/she has to choose either;

• Power Attack,
• Combat Expertise
• Zen Archery

What would you pick if you wanted to focus on ranged combat(given that we dont know what Zen Archery entails yet, but it can be assumed it will benefit this combat style)?

Given your example the bard would probably want either PA or CE. Wisdom does nothing to help the bard.

I'll say again that I think that fighters, who get tons of feats, will pick this up if they think there is ever a use for ranged combat. We'll have to see what kind of builds will be designed around this now to see what it can do for other classes.

[Aspenor]

I like it even better than my idea, though half the feats listed require PBS as a prereq. don't they (RS, MS)?

i wouldn't know, i don't build ranged characters. I just wanted to give people more choices, TBH.

[Borror0]

I like it even better than my idea, though half the feats listed require PBS as a prereq. don't they (RS, MS)?

MS and PS do, but not Zen Archery.

[Inspire]

Also I wouldnt mind seeing the BAB changed to +4 instead of +6. Just because level 9 Rogue or Bard and 12 Wizard or Sorcerer seems like a long time to wait if you want to focus on this combat style, while hindering your previous feat selections. Either that or remove one of the prereqs like WF; Ranged.