Bow Strength For Non-Rangers

[Aspenor]

While this isn't directly related to the capstone, the issue of Bow Strength has come up a few times in this thread, and how it's currently restricted solely to Rangers.

In a future module (not Mod 9!) we're considering easing that restriction, allowing the Bow Strength feat to be trained by other classes, though Rangers will continue to be getting it for free at first level.

Our current working version is:

Bow Strength
Prereqs: Base Attack Bonus +6, Weapon Focus: Ranged, Point Blank Shot, and any one of: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, or Zen Archery
Benefit: You apply your Strength bonus to bow damage.
Special: Rangers receive this feat at first level. A fighter may select Bow Strength as one of his fighter bonus feats.

As with all works-in-progress, this may change, especially since this change is not planned for the upcoming release. (The prerequisites are the part most likely to differ if released.)

I wanted to get this information out sooner rather than later, however. And yes, I know I listed Zen Archery in there. Consider that under the "work-in-progress" disclaimer as well.

Original Post

Discuss.

[Yaga_Nub]

first!

[moorewr]

Frist!


Addendum: Aspenor is a n00b. :P

[Aspenor]

Frist!

Fail.

[Reverand]

can we also add ....

Barbarian rage for non-barbarians
Bard song for non-bards
Trap disable for non-rogues
Pali auras for non-palis?


Class skill are the reason we choose those classes. You want bow strength? Milticlass one level in ranger. I personally don't think this should be changed. This is a class based game, not a skill/feat based game.

[Aspenor]

can we also add ....

Barbarian rage for non-barbarians
Bard song for non-bards
Trap disable for non-rogues
Pali auras for non-palis?


Class skill are the reason we choose those classes. You want bow strength? Milticlass one level in ranger. I personally don't think this should be changed. This is a class based game, not a skill/feat based game.

Serious question here....did you even read the post or just the title?

[Inspire]

[Inspire]

Bard song for non-bards
Pali auras for non-palis?

Purple Dragon Knight?

[PhoenixFire31]

can we also add ....

Barbarian rage for non-barbarians
Bard song for non-bards
Trap disable for non-rogues
Pali auras for non-palis?


Class skill are the reason we choose those classes. You want bow strength? Milticlass one level in ranger. I personally don't think this should be changed. This is a class based game, not a skill/feat based game.

Thing is it is not supposed to be available only to rangers.

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY BENEVOLENT ELADRIN!!!



if you don't know...I like this and I am a hardcore ranger fan

[Raiken]

making this available via a feat is a good option for non rangers and will probably lead to alot more unique ranged builds.

i have an elven cleric that im going to make for an elven arcane archer so this & zen archery are looking pretty good to me.

but...

Power Attack - does it even work with ranged weapons? if not why make it one of the possible prereqs for bow strength?

[Reverand]

Serious question here....did you even read the post or just the title?

I'm not saying i will quit the game if they change it, just my opinion. There are reasons to multiclass. I don't think they should take those reasons away. Capstones are nice, but you need to make sacrifices to get rewards.

Getting everything on one character removes that need. Suddenly you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Yaga_Nub]

can we also add ....

Barbarian rage for non-barbarians
Bard song for non-bards
Trap disable for non-rogues
Pali auras for non-palis?


Class skill are the reason we choose those classes. You want bow strength? Milticlass one level in ranger. I personally don't think this should be changed. This is a class based game, not a skill/feat based game.

That's definitely one way to look at it but in DnD, because of multi-classing, I really don't see it as a class based game. Certain classes get certain feats yes but it's not a game where you should be forced into some archtype from the fantasy world.

Plus Bow Str. is a made-up feat for Rangers only. In the simplest terms, it's supposed to be a feature of any comp. bow.

[PhoenixFire31]

I think the idea is to give the feat a cost and not make it so easy to get. You can either spend the feats or take a level of ranger...makes sense to me. Besides CE can still be used ranged which is good since ranging lowers you AC.

[Yaga_Nub]

....

Power Attack - does it even work with ranged weapons? if not why make it one of the possible prereqs for bow strength?

A lot of fighters will have power attack anyway so I think Eladrin is throwing them an easy bone so they will pick up a bow every now and then.

[Sabotage]

I'm not saying i will quit the game if they change it, just my opinion. There are reasons to multiclass. I don't think they should take those reasons away. Capstones are nice, but you need to make sacrifices to get rewards.

Getting everything on one character removes that need. Suddenly you can have your cake and eat it too.

Why would you have cake and not eat it though?

[sephiroth1084]

Okay, as I stated in the other thread, this is a great idea, except that the prerequisites are way overboard. Unless PA starts functioning with ranged attacks, it has no business being a prereq. on a ranged feat. CE feels just as out of place. Zen Archery, while I like the idea, and have hopes for the feat, it has no place being a prereq either.

I say use the standard archery prereq. of Point Blank Shot and add in a Str 13 requirement. Maybe add Rapid Shot as a requirement as well, but that seems unnecessary and backwards vs. the ranger's set-up.

Moving on from the feat requirements...the BAB req is also egregious. Why should an archer have to wait 6 levels in order to spend a feat to get something a ranger gets at level 1 for free? Compare it to other ranger freebee feats:
Rapid Shot at level 2, available to most at level 3, humans and fighters at level 1.
Manyshot at ranger 6, available to everyone with a full BAB at level 6.
Improved Rapid Shot at ranger 11, available to everyone with a full, or almost full, BAB at level 12 (and to mixed classes possibly at 11 as well).

Going by the ranger feat trend, rangers gain their free feats at the same time that anyone else would have access to them. As it stands, rangers are still getting all of this for free, while others have to take them, and have to order their feats to gain the ones they want at the right time.

Ultimately, I'd say that the feat should have the following prereqs:

Str 13, Point Blank Shot, BAB +2 (so fighters can get it at the same level as rangers, and everyone else has to wait until level 3, which seems reasonable).

And even that seems almost unreasonable, since PBS is a pretty poor feat, and a non-fighter or non-human aiming for Bow Str as early as possible is going to have to balance that against Rapid Shot. Ranger 1 splash is still valuable, and more convenient, but this opens the door for more options for other characters.

[Aspenor]

Getting everything on one character removes that need. Suddenly you can have your cake and eat it too.

You mean like playing a druid?

[moorewr]

Fail.

Nope. I did exactly what I meant to do: I posted "Frist" exactly where people always post it.

[Yaga_Nub]

Okay, as I stated in the other thread, this is a great idea, except that the prerequisites are way overboard. Unless PA starts functioning with ranged attacks, it has no business being a prereq. on a ranged feat. CE feels just as out of place. Zen Archery, while I like the idea, and have hopes for the feat, it has no place being a prereq either.

I say use the standard archery prereq. of Point Blank Shot and add in a Str 13 requirement. Maybe add Rapid Shot as a requirement as well, but that seems unnecessary and backwards vs. the ranger's set-up.

Why does it have to emulate the ranger's set up?

Moving on from the feat requirements...the BAB req is also egregious. Why should an archer have to wait 6 levels in order to spend a feat to get something a ranger gets at level 1 for free? Compare it to other ranger freebee feats:
Rapid Shot at level 2, available to most at level 3, humans and fighters at level 1.
Manyshot at ranger 6, available to everyone with a full BAB at level 6.
Improved Rapid Shot at ranger 11, available to everyone with a full, or almost full, BAB at level 12 (and to mixed classes possibly at 11 as well).

Going by the ranger feat trend, rangers gain their free feats at the same time that anyone else would have access to them. As it stands, rangers are still getting all of this for free, while others have to take them, and have to order their feats to gain the ones they want at the right time.

Ultimately, I'd say that the feat should have the following prereqs:

Str 13, Point Blank Shot, BAB +2 (so fighters can get it at the same level as rangers, and everyone else has to wait until level 3, which seems reasonable).

Why should fighters get it at the same level as a ranger?

And even that seems almost unreasonable, since PBS is a pretty poor feat, and a non-fighter or non-human aiming for Bow Str as early as possible is going to have to balance that against Rapid Shot. Ranger 1 splash is still valuable, and more convenient, but this opens the door for more options for other characters.

It seems unreasonable to YOU but Eladrin seems to think it's reasonable. Think outside the box a bit and I think you can see why E is thinking about the feats and BAB that he has suggested.

[Uska]

can we also add ....

Barbarian rage for non-barbarians
Bard song for non-bards
Trap disable for non-rogues
Pali auras for non-palis?


Class skill are the reason we choose those classes. You want bow strength? Milticlass one level in ranger. I personally don't think this should be changed. This is a class based game, not a skill/feat based game.

Umm bow str is a made up ddo feat and doesnt exist in pnp, rangers should get it for free here but it should be available as a feat choice for all classes