The Monster. 12 Fighter / 6 ranger / 2 monk

[Aaxeyu]

I have toon as you call it Monster- Dwarf 8fgtr/6rgr/monk(in future12/6/2) build running already for month and gattering gears and ingridients to make GS d axes...i like its AC and dps but still behind my Rnager14/fgtr2 with dps ....yes i counting on Mod 9 to make him good DPS mashine with Kensai but so far i doubt that he will outdps rgrs

Just compare them
ranger:
+12 favored. that's it for the damage
20% more offhand attacks
15% attackspeed (which is 17%) But only 5 boosts

Monster:
6 favored
4 weapon speci
1 enhancement
2 kensai
3 wf pa (unless you are wf as well with maxed pa)
5(or more) more strength than the ranger (8PS,3enhancements)
30% attackspeed (which = 42%) 8 boosts
4 seeker
Quickdraw
more to hit

It's easy math comparing the monster vs a ranger, dunno what race you are, stats etc. But the basic point remains, figthers gain a lot of +dmg.

[longor55]

race dwarf as it was posted...but again u praying for fgtr boost and wf race as supreme enhcmnt but in game it has litle use and Kensai surge timer not known .... 20 sec ...1 min? so all good on paper which motivated me to build my Monster and again it does look good but i dont see numbers that u calculated yet ...i still waiting for Mod 9 hoping that . One more thing when u use khopeshes u loose Ki and that key to kensai surge if I understood correct kensai

[Aaxeyu]

I haven't tried with Quickdraw, but without it's 1-2 seconds, as you said.

As far as I know, 20s-2s=18s. How is it a ridiculous claim? Maybe Quickdraw changes something, but anyway all your predictions are overly optimistic anyway. If anyone made a ridiculous claim this far in the thread, it would be you, by acting as if Haste Boost was on 100% of the time.

I never acted like hasteboost was activated all the time, if you would have paid more attention instead of just making up skewed calculations and assumptions you would know that our calc counts the average dps under 5 minutes. 2,6667 of those minutes include haste boost.
You make it look like that if you don't fight a punching bag, The Monster will lose dps. That is wrong, if you were to include time running between mobs in the calc The Monster would lose nothing from activating haste boost Now it loses 0.5 sec per boost, not a big deal.

Our "punshingbag calculations" favors The Exploiter build more, as it have 5 boost, who take 1-2 sec each to active as it don't have enough feats for quickdraw.

The Monster loses 4 sec of fighting (1,3%) while The Exploiter loses 5-10 sec (1.7% - 3.3%).

Your calcs have been extremely biased towards The Exploiter, and by saying that they have been biased towards The Monster actually makes them even more biased towards The Exploiter (Simple psychology, I can explain if you don't understand).

About the attackspeed stacking, go test it yourself and you will see that what we are saying is correct, don't just laugh at it and say that it is wrong as you did with the activation speed on hasteboost.

I will rewrite the unboosted/unpowersurged monster vs the unboosted exploiter now. You will see that The Monster have higher dps even without haste boost and powersurge.

[Borror0]

[...]

I think this is were I should give up on this thread...

[Shyver]

Shyver
Read the whole post, don't just comment on one line that's inbeded within a whole statement. And if the best US players think that 8 mins are too short duration then yes, I stand by my statement. But if this is just the general opinion by the RP'ers or Nice 'n slowers then I take it back. Any Powergamer worth his salt knows that 8 min PS between shrines is 90-100% of the time, == a very constant factor to count into the non-burst DPS.

I did read the whole quote. Hell I'll even quote the whole thing to show that I did.

No, I'm not implying that EU powergamers are better, but considering on the responses and the ridicules statements that 8 mins isn't constant is completly out of whack, and makes me strongly doubt the abilities of US powergamers, mayhap the ones who post here aren't powergamers. But this is a powergamer build, and it's built for powergamers after all.

And your opinion is of one that if anyone thinks that 8 min isn't sustained then they aren't very good powergamers. A lot of powergamers here have disagreed with you so you feel that they just don't "know" like the true powergamers on the EU servers.

I, for one, don't think it's sustained, situational at best. Feel free to mock me or my status as a powergamer, but I think my DDO resume speaks for itself.

And any powergamer worth his salt knows that what counts is speed in a quest or raid with a minimum amount of resources used. Ask a cleric who they would rather heal and 9/10 are going to pick a ranger or the "exploiter" over the "monster".

Yeah big DPS numbers are great and fun to see. And a way to show this build would have been to post it in a way that presented it as a good DPS build for a mostly fighter level split. Instead you stormed into the US forums proclaiming that this is the new "uber" build. Even linking to it in the "exploiter" build while putting down that ranger build. So while I will applaud you for all the coverage that it's gotten your build, frankly it's just another DPS build that requires a pocket-healer.

edit: removed because I don't feel like getting into a ****ing match.

[Kiranselie]

Well, its obvious that you suffer from severe delusions of grandeur, and no ammount of mathematical data will dissuade you from believing you are the supreme dps in the game. I and many others who have posted here know otherwise, and altho I cant speak for all of them, I will leave this thread alone, and allow you and your ego all the room you will need. (Although, I dont think these forums are large enough to house said ego).

I will ponder this, I wonder how many all "monster" raids you would be able to pull off, given that you represent the most "uber" of powergamers from the EU servers. I know first hand that some of these "lesser" dps classes can manage it quite easily. Food for thought the next time you want to invade our forums/servers w/ your nonsense.

[Aaxeyu]

I think this is were I should give up on this thread...

Running out of tricks, are we?

Anyways, here is the calc you asked for:

"The monster" with 1x madstone and rage pot:

I will count in maxed bard song and prayer. That will boost The Exploiters DPS more than The Monsters due to the extra offhand attacks.

Damage main hand:
5.5 weapon
5 weapon mod
16str
8 PA
6 FE
4 weapon spec
2 kensai
1 weapon spec enhancement
8 bard song
2 rams might
1 prayer
58.5 total
Weapon effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
13 total
Average hit: 71.5 damage.

Crits:
175.5 (58.5 x3)
30 seeker
13 elemental
22 acid burst
14 natural 20 (blast)
Average crit: 254.5

attack 1: 0
attack 2: 71.5
attack 3: 71.5
attack 4: 71.5
attack 5: 71.5
attack 6: 71.5
attack 7: 71.5
attack 8: 71.5
attack 9: 71.5
attack 10: 71.5
attack 11: 71.5
attack 12: 71.5
attack 13: 71.5
attack 14: 71.5
attack 15: 71.5
attack 16: 71.5
attack 17: 240.5
attack 18: 240.5
attack 19: 240.5
attack 20: 254.5

Average: 102.425 per hit.

83 attacks per min
123 with haste and tempest.
= 123 attacks per min.

DPS: 123 * 102.425 /60 = 210

Damage off hand:
5.5 weapon
5 weapon mod
8 str
8 PA
6 FE
4 weapon spec
2 kensai
1 weapon spec enhancement
8 bard song
2 rams might
1 prayer
50.5 total

Weapon effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
13 total
Average hit: 63.5 damage.

Crits:
151.5 (50.5 x3)
30 seeker
13 elemental
11 acid burst
Average crit: 205.5

attack 1: 0
attack 2: 63.5
attack 3: 63.5
attack 4: 63.5
attack 5: 63.5
attack 6: 63.5
attack 7: 63.5
attack 8: 63.5
attack 9: 63.5
attack 10: 63.5
attack 11: 63.5
attack 12: 63.5
attack 13: 63.5
attack 14: 63.5
attack 15: 63.5
attack 16: 63.5
attack 17: 205.5
attack 18: 205.5
attack 19: 205.5
attack 20: 205.5

Average: 88.725 per hit.

83 attacks per min
123 with haste and tempest.
= 123 attacks per min.

DPS: 123 * 88.725 /60 = 182 dps

Total dps: 210 + 182 = 392 dps


"The Exploiter" with the str used in Borror0s tohit calc:

I will count in maxed bard song and prayer. That will boost The Exploiters DPS more than The Monsters due to the extra offhand attacks.

Damage main hand:
5,5 weapon
5 weapon mod
14 str
5 PA
12 FE
8 bard song
2 rams might
1 prayer
52,5 total

Weapon effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
13 total
Average hit: 65,5 damage.

Crits:
157,5 (52,5 x3)
18 seeker
13 elemental
22 acid burst
14 natural 20 (blast)
Average crit: 210,5 damage

attack 1: 0
attack 2: 65,5
attack 3: 65,5
attack 4: 65,5
attack 5: 65,5
attack 6: 65,5
attack 7: 65,5
attack 8: 65,5
attack 9: 65,5
attack 10: 65,5
attack 11: 65,5
attack 12: 65,5
attack 13: 65,5
attack 14: 65,5
attack 15: 65,5
attack 16: 65,5
attack 17: 210,5
attack 18: 210,5
attack 19: 210,5
attack 20: 224,5

Average: 91,925 per hit.

83 attacks per min
123 with haste and tempest.
= 123 attacks per min.

DPS: 123 * 91,925 /60 = 188 dps

Damage off hand:
5,5 weapon
5 weapon mod
7 str
5 PA
12 FE
8 bard song
2 rams might
1 prayer
45,5 total

Weapon effects:
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
13 total
Average hit: 58,5 damage.

Crits:
136,5 (51 x3)
18 seeker
13 elemental
11 acid burst
Average crit: 178,5 damage

attack 1: 0
attack 2: 58,5
attack 3: 58,5
attack 4: 58,5
attack 5: 58,5
attack 6: 58,5
attack 7: 58,5
attack 8: 58,5
attack 9: 58,5
attack 10: 58,5
attack 11: 58,5
attack 12: 58,5
attack 13: 58,5
attack 14: 58,5
attack 15: 58,5
attack 16: 58,5
attack 17: 178,5
attack 18: 178,5
attack 19: 178,5
attack 20: 178,5

Average: 79,58 per hit.

99,6 attacks per min (Tempest III will get more offhand attacks)
147.5 with haste and tempest.
= 148 attacks per min.

DPS: 148 * 79,58 /60 = 196 dps

Total dps: 188 + 196 = 384 dps


So The Monsters dps is 392 and The exploiters is 384.

So even without powersurge and haste boost The Monster have higher dps.

I hope you can read this calc Borror0.

What were you saying? Did the exploiter out-dps the monster wiithout boost/PS? You should run your calcs again..

If you add SA on the exploiter just to get some higher numbers I will get my self a good laugh, as then you think SA on a non-rogue (no -%threat etc) with mineral II weapons is more sustainable than 8 minutes of powersurge.

[Aaxeyu]

Here is a good post on the attackspeed stacking:

Measuring the effect of haste

[Lifespawn]

Here is a good post on the attackspeed stacking:

Measuring the effect of haste

edited to not get into it lol

[Angelus_dead]

I will count in maxed bard song and prayer.

Maxed song is more than +8. You don't include Tharne's Goggles (or Litany, lol). Those factors favor the character with faster swing speed, which with Haste Boost off is not the Fighter character.

Additionally, it's funny that you give your build a racial damage bonus from Warforged Power Attack, but are going against an opponent with neither WF PA nor Halfling Guile.

I'm not familiar with the Exploiter build, but if it's neither Warforged nor Halfling, then it's lower DPS than it could be, meaning that beating it isn't terrifically impressive. Everyone knows Human is not a high-damage race.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I think this is were I should give up on this thread...

Oh no. That was PAGES ago.

[Nyvn]

Dex 26 (15 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 enhancements)

....

Self buffed/Final AC Breakdown:
10 Base
7 dex
5 Wis
9 Plating + dragontouched
5 deflection
1 Monk
3 chatter ring
1 ritual
2 Chaosgarde
4 insight
1 Dodge
2 tempest
----------------
50 - unbuffed
----------------
1 haste
2 shield spell
4 madstone
----------------
57 - self buffed/boosted
----------------
1 barkskin
4 bard song
5 Aura
2 recitation
----------------
69 with all buffs

You calcs here seem a bit off you have 26 dex listed which is a +8 bonus, but only have a +7 bonus listed.

Edited Thanks Aranticus

[Borror0]

Running out of tricks, are we?

Patience is the word you're looking for.

[Aranticus]

You calcs here seem a bit off. First you have 26 dex listed which is a +8 bonus, but only have a +7 bonus listed. Then you are only giving your self +1 Natural armor for Barkskin, but don't have another source of Natural armor listed; so you should have another source natural armor bonus on gear, but not listed.

the +7 is likely due to the limitations base on wf mith body plating. madstone provide +4 nat armor when activated

[Nyvn]

Edited out the Natural armor, but as for the dex he doesn't have Mithril Body Listed. If he did have it he couldn't list the monk Wisdom Bonus.

[Aaxeyu]

Maxed song is more than +8. You don't include Tharne's Goggles (or Litany, lol). Those factors favor the character with faster swing speed, which with Haste Boost off is not the Fighter character.

Additionally, it's funny that you give your build a racial damage bonus from Warforged Power Attack, but are going against an opponent with neither WF PA nor Halfling Guile.

I'm not familiar with the Exploiter build, but if it's neither Warforged nor Halfling, then it's lower DPS than it could be, meaning that beating it isn't terrifically impressive. Everyone knows Human is not a high-damage race.

As far as I know maxed songs gives +8 damage (3 from levels, 3 from enhancements and 2 from warchanter), another assumption that is stated as a fact? lol, aye I should drop bloodstone (144 damage in 20 swings) damage and include Litany (0-40,5 damage in 20 swings) nice tradeoff.
This calc only shows dps that is 100% sustainable, so no SA as that is waaay less sustainable than 8x 1min boosts.

So it's funny that I don't include Halfling Guile or WF PA on a human build, but not that I don't include my 8 30% haste boosts or my 8 min of power surge? That makes you seem very biased towards The Exploiet you know..
The Exploiter is also less likely to have madstone all the time due to its higher AC.

And for the record, the real exploiter build dont have this high str, so that is another thing that favors it.

Borror0 stated that the exploiter had superior dps when not counting PS or hasteboosts, apparently he was wrong.

No, it isn't very impressive to beat it, but when I even can beat it without haste boosts or PS it shows that my actual dps is way higher than the Exploiters, opposed to what Borror0 was saying.

[Aaxeyu]

You calcs here seem a bit off you have 26 dex listed which is a +8 bonus, but only have a +7 bonus listed.

Thanks for pointing it out, I missed that completly . Another AC I guess ^^.

[Lunewann]

I say give up OP before the dogs savage you.....

[Aaxeyu]

And your opinion is of one that if anyone thinks that 8 min isn't sustained then they aren't very good powergamers. A lot of powergamers here have disagreed with you so you feel that they just don't "know" like the true powergamers on the EU servers.

I, for one, don't think it's sustained, situational at best. Feel free to mock me or my status as a powergamer, but I think my DDO resume speaks for itself.

And any powergamer worth his salt knows that what counts is speed in a quest or raid with a minimum amount of resources used. Ask a cleric who they would rather heal and 9/10 are going to pick a ranger or the "exploiter" over the "monster".

Let me show you some numbers of how long it takes to finish quests.
Kobold: 8-15 minutes, 2 shrines (24 min PS, 24 haste boosts) (3-5 mins of fighting, total)
Prey: 13-20 minutes, 1 shrines (16 min PS, 16 boosts) (2-4 mins of fighting, total.)
Monastary: 5-10 minutes, 2 shrines (24 min PS, 24 haste boosts) (0-1 mins of fighting)
SoS: 20-30 minutes, 4 shrines (40 min PS, 40 haste boosts) (each giant boss, 30-60 sec except that last one which is 1-2 mins and Sor'jek for 2-4 mins)

Shroud: 25-45 minutes, (PUG!), 4 shrines (40 min PS, 40 haste boosts) (No fight longer than 3-8 min (except part 1, duh!)
VoD: 10-20 minutes, (8 min PS, 8 haste boosts) (Maybe 3-8 min sally bashing, normal)

So yes, 8 min is substainable. And looking at the DDO history the quest keeps getting shorter and shorter, with a few exceptions.

Ask any EU power-gamers cleric (Me involved) and they're going to say, the one that makes it go faster - The Monster. The one that makes it more fun to play - The Monster. (More active combat by healing more).

[Borror0]

Borror0 stated that the exploiter had superior dps when not counting PS or hasteboosts, apparently he was wrong.

Exploiter does beat you but don't want to add sneak attacks, so, lol. Fine. Whatever.

Anyway, you don't out-DPS a WF FB.