Paladin: The sad Truth

[Noctus]

I recently stumbled over a post in the rogue forums which nearly summarized the current issues with the Paladin class:

Combat Expertise?

Or, combat expertise on a class with 2 important self-buff spells that each have a 1-2 minute duration, and then a couple more 1 min. buffs, and 2 active-combat abilities. The spells turn off CE, which then needs to be brought back up, and which, itself, takes time to "cast", then there are other buffs to be brought up...by the time you're done with just that, your first buffs are down to 45-30 seconds left, and you've missed out on a couple of attack chains.

Unlike monks, who lose 1d6 damage if they don't hit one of their specail moves, paladins lose 5d6 to 9d6 damage whenever they aren't using Divine Sacrifice. And, unlike rogues, who aren't going to be assassinating too frequently (many monsters have very high saves, others have immunity, and in some fights it just isn't practical), paladins who want AC are more or less relegated to performing this clicky-juggling-fest every minute or two regardless of the opponents or design of the encounter.

He neatly summarized the reason why i am not playing a Paladin, although the fluff and the versatility of the class really interest me. All those short-time boosts and required short-time-buffs to keep a Paladin up to par have relegated this class to a potential 2-level-splash for me.


Are there others out there who feel the same way?
Are those who are currently running a Paladin also annoyed with the click-fest? Or do you even like the "always-active" feeling on your Paladin?
Who would welcome a change in the Paladin away from the button-mashing?

[jmonty]

if it is so annoying, why try to do max dps and maintain max ac at the same time? just change with the situation as needed.

[slumbering_dragon]

well i play several pallies and i dont have that problem. i dont use the spells really, just resist energy and some times virtue but on the rare occasions i use remove peralisys on a team mate. i have 2 extra buttons on my mouse wich is set to smite evil and divine sacrafice. so i dont mind the way pallies are right now. i dont think pallies are very strong in buffing of any sort, IMO they suck for spell casting.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you somewhat OP. It is a little much - all the short term buffs, but I think alot of people like playing paladins for precisely that reason. Its an active class unlike say a fighter which is just for the most part attack attack attack attack attack....

[artvan_delet]

I agree with you somewhat OP. It is a little much - all the short term buffs, but I think alot of people like playing paladins for precisely that reason. Its an active class unlike say a fighter which is just for the most part attack attack attack attack attack....

As many have said, the extend feat is a big help, almost necessary nowadays. If the devs can adjust divine favor, divine righteousness, and divine might durations to scale to level, then I think most paladins will be very glad. And if they made them undispellable because they're divine, well that would be fantastic.

[Borror0]

if it is so annoying, why try to do max dps and maintain max ac at the same time? just change with the situation as needed.

Lowers your effectiveness.

[Inspire]

I love playing my Paladin, CE's cooldown was brought down to 6s and that helped ALOT.

But you shoudnt always be in Ac mode anyways, when you have a big fight and the Cleric is using Mass Heals your Ac is only as good as the lowest Ac in the group(although this doesnt apply when fighting casters, Ie; Eladrin in RwtD where your Ac doesnt matter). That said going from a 63 to a 58 Ac on my Paladin when completly unbuffed isnt much of a deal, turn on PA and you dont have to worry about turning CE on after it breaks(which only takes 1s to turn back on btw). If you cant keep up with the twitch and button mashing play style that is Paladin take Extend as a feat, it will help you alot.

Just my 2cp.

[EazyWeazy]

I love playing my Paladin, CE's cooldown was brought down to 6s and that helped ALOT.

QFT

That said...I would love to see some more progress in this direction. The OP's example of trying to buff with the necessary short duration spells is something that I also experience.

Another prime example is during VoD. You can be standing there intimidating and all of the sudden your AC drops by 5 because you had to drink a remove curse pot or cast it on yourself? Going from 70ish AC down 5 can really suck and further complicates it when you're trying to intimidate and get CE back on.

I'm not saying that one encounter should create change...but this could be any boss fight that you need to buff up throughout the fight.

On a side note...I never understood why CE would drop while casting, but PA would not. I never really appreciated it until I had my Paladin and got used to reactivating CE all the time. I go back to my DPS ranger build and never have to mess with PA...other than when I log in of course.

[EinarMal]

I don't mind re-casting spell buffs but I do not like clicky attacks all that well. It feels more detached (to me) for some reason like I am not really swinging anymore like normal. I also lose probably 10% that simply go back on timer with no effect. Also so many mobs run non stop that gets annoying as well.

I love playing buff based fighters (Bards, Clerics, Paladins) I do not like Monks because of all the hot bar attacks and it would be hard for me to play a full Paladin and use all the special divine sacrifice/smite stuff.

I like even haste boost etc...it basically comes down to I do not like hot bar attacks that mess with the normal mouse attack. That just feels better to me personally.

[Inspire]

Another prime example is during VoD. You can be standing there intimidating and all of the sudden your AC drops by 5 because you had to drink a remove curse pot or cast it on yourself? Going from 70ish AC down 5 can really suck and further complicates it when you're trying to intimidate and get CE back on.

I actually dont mind getting hit on my Paladin. Take CE off and block, with Concoordiant Opp and Healer's Bounty I get free Heals and Sp back. Although Im sure many Paladins dont have the same gear setup as mine.

On a side note...I never understood why CE would drop while casting, but PA would not. I never really appreciated it until I had my Paladin and got used to reactivating CE all the time.

So Casters dont have a permenant +5Ac, IMO thats what I think the reasoning behind the 6s cooldown is.

[Borror0]

On a side note...I never understood why CE would drop while casting, but PA would not.

In PnP, both last until your next round.

When adapting PA and CE to DDO, CE and PA were made stances as any other use would be kind of odd: for CE or PA to activate you'd have to be swinging at a monster. Pa could be left on all the time, as its effect is only when you are swinging. CE got to be deactivated by some actions since AC is beneficial even when you are not swinging.

So Casters dont have a permenant +5Ac, IMO thats what I think the reasoning behind the 6s cooldown is.

Is that really game breaking?

At worse, they could make CE toggle on/off automatically.

[Junts]

I recently stumbled over a post in the rogue forums which nearly summarized the current issues with the Paladin class:




He neatly summarized the reason why i am not playing a Paladin, although the fluff and the versatility of the class really interest me. All those short-time boosts and required short-time-buffs to keep a Paladin up to par have relegated this class to a potential 2-level-splash for me.


Are there others out there who feel the same way?
Are those who are currently running a Paladin also annoyed with the click-fest? Or do you even like the "always-active" feeling on your Paladin?
Who would welcome a change in the Paladin away from the button-mashing?

if i didnt have 3 buffs to keep up and 2 timered clickies to use in combat, I'd be incredibly bored. how do other melees play this game when all they have/can do is target something and autoattack it til it dies? i have tons of stuff to use and still watch bars to throw lays/etc on people and umd appropriate buffs.

the only time my buffs/timed attacks annoy me is when i run out of sp and can't do them anymore, and that doesn't happen very often now that I've got over 500 sp via shroud items.

[Deathseeker]

Is that really game breaking?

Well, CE is supposed to have a trade off. The trade off is to hit bonus. But for a caster, who doesnt care about To-Hit bonus, it isnt much of a trade-off. So yes, I'd say its somewhat unbalancing to have not have a trade off for Casters.

BUT...I think Paladins should get to avoid this problem altogether and for Paladin spells it shouldnt deactivate. Paladins inherently have a penalty because the to-hit bonus is a big deal. They shouldnt be double penalized.

So I'd suggest Pally's get full time CE with no deactivation. Bards is a tough call, I'd lean toward letting leave it on because...well...bards need love anyways. For Sorcs, Wizards and Clerics...it should shut off when casting.

That's my 2cp...

How about another idea...make the Combat Casting feat cause CE to stay on always. Give it to Pally's and Bards as a class ability at higher levels. That way, if you have a Cleric, Sorc or Wizzy build and it matters to you, you can take it and have access as well...

Just at thought, and maybe not a well thought out one at that...

[bobbryan2]

Well, CE is supposed to have a trade off. The trade off is to hit bonus. But for a caster, who doesnt care about To-Hit bonus, it isnt much of a trade-off. So yes, I'd say its somewhat unbalancing to have not have a trade off for Casters.

BUT...I think Paladins should get to avoid this problem altogether and for Paladin spells it shouldnt deactivate. Paladins inherently have a penalty because the to-hit bonus is a big deal. They shouldnt be double penalized.

So I'd suggest Pally's get full time CE with no deactivation. Bards is a tough call, I'd lean toward letting leave it on because...well...bards need love anyways. For Sorcs, Wizards and Clerics...it should shut off when casting.

That's my 2cp...

How about another idea...make the Combat Casting feat cause CE to stay on always. Give it to Pally's and Bards as a class ability at higher levels. That way, if you have a Cleric, Sorc or Wizzy build and it matters to you, you can take it and have access as well...

Just at thought, and maybe not a well thought out one at that...

But it does have a trade off in DDO. Use of a feat slot on a non-spell casting feat.

[Borror0]

Well, CE is supposed to have a trade off.

It does, 13 Int and a feat slot.

Then, to be really worth anything, you have to have AC high enough, you have to sacrifice a few item slots on character who will be away from melee range most of the time and can cast Displacement on himself nearly at will, along with Stoneskin and PfE.

[Deathseeker]

It does, 13 Int and a feat slot.

Then, to be really worth anything, you have to have AC high enough, you have to sacrifice a few item slots on character who will be away from melee range most of the time and can cast Displacement on himself nearly at will, along with Stoneskin and PfE.

Would you settle on Arcane spells only to deactivate it? It just doesnt feel right to have it always on for a caster. But, since "feel" isnt exactly a compelling argument, I won't go down in flames arguing over this one...if it was always on I wouldnt exactly cry foul.

It does drive me nuts on my Dragonmark halfling to have to reactivate it when I heal mid-fight...very annoying. I like using Viscious because I can self heal the damage...but the distraction and delay of activating CE everytime makes it too annoying to be worthwhile. So, yeah, I definitely feel the pain too...

Who knows...maybe it would make AC more viable on casters.

Ah heck...throw me in with the "make CE always active crowd". See, some people do change their minds on the forums!

[Arjen]

I'd certainly never take CE on any of my casters. They really ought to revisit the logic behind shutting the feat off with each cast.

To get decent AC in DDO requires quite a bit of effort -I think we can safely assume that the vast majority of casters would not benefit from spending a feat on CE.

[Inspire]

I'd certainly never take CE on any of my casters. They really ought to revisit the logic behind shutting the feat off with each cast.

To get decent AC in DDO requires quite a bit of effort -I think we can safely assume that the vast majority of casters would not benefit from spending a feat on CE.

18Clr/2Mnk.

[elraido]

It does, 13 Int and a feat slot.

Bingo. It really isn't a "free" feat for paladins. Mine don't have it because they don't have the int...it went into other stats. So you have to sacrifice the int, the feat AND the +5 to hit to get it. While sometimes I wish I had it, I haven't lost any sleep over it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think you are overstating the problem....at least about Palllies.

CE and spells/clickies is a problem for everyone.
So is short term clickies/buffs.......not just Pallies.

Every AC build shows shield clickies and CE for instance. Many also show Haste and Barkskin pots.

My Monk has CE, but it is almost always being turned off for some reason or another, and I'm not even a high AC build.....it is just part of the flaw in this feat.

But if CE did not turn off, it would be very, very abused.

I do wish they would take a closer look at CE and try to reclassify what exactly turns it off.

My Pal is quite squishy actually.....but only to getting beat on. She's practically invulnerable to non-melee attacks. (Evasion Pal)

So how I adapt is to not intimidate (usually) and wait till someone else gets agro. Besides, she also some a small amount of SA damage anyway.

But if she does get agro, those LoH can help her survive a lot longer then her HP/AC would suggest.

Biggest prob I face with a Pal is stats.
Pal need high stats in Str, (Dex), Con, (Wiz), Cha. Add 13 Int for CE.....and....wow. They need high stats in every stat... lol.

How on earth to build a good DDO Pal? I don't know. Nor have I seen a build yet that I considered good.

People want a Pal to be an awesome Intimitank....and DPSer.
They want them to do what they see Ftrs and Brbs do. Well those Ftrs and Brbs don't need the stats a Pal does.

I don't see clickies as a prob for Pal. Monks are way worse IMO.
I see people (and me) wanting a Pal to be the ultimate tank as a problem. And he falls short.

I like my Pal.....but I will always be at the Pit Fiend's tail....and I will never be intimidating Sulu or the Hound........such is my lot in life.

But I might try soling that Kobold for ya.