Paladin: The sad Truth

[Noctus]

I recently stumbled over a post in the rogue forums which nearly summarized the current issues with the Paladin class:

Combat Expertise?

Or, combat expertise on a class with 2 important self-buff spells that each have a 1-2 minute duration, and then a couple more 1 min. buffs, and 2 active-combat abilities. The spells turn off CE, which then needs to be brought back up, and which, itself, takes time to "cast", then there are other buffs to be brought up...by the time you're done with just that, your first buffs are down to 45-30 seconds left, and you've missed out on a couple of attack chains.

Unlike monks, who lose 1d6 damage if they don't hit one of their specail moves, paladins lose 5d6 to 9d6 damage whenever they aren't using Divine Sacrifice. And, unlike rogues, who aren't going to be assassinating too frequently (many monsters have very high saves, others have immunity, and in some fights it just isn't practical), paladins who want AC are more or less relegated to performing this clicky-juggling-fest every minute or two regardless of the opponents or design of the encounter.

He neatly summarized the reason why i am not playing a Paladin, although the fluff and the versatility of the class really interest me. All those short-time boosts and required short-time-buffs to keep a Paladin up to par have relegated this class to a potential 2-level-splash for me.


Are there others out there who feel the same way?
Are those who are currently running a Paladin also annoyed with the click-fest? Or do you even like the "always-active" feeling on your Paladin?
Who would welcome a change in the Paladin away from the button-mashing?

[jmonty]

if it is so annoying, why try to do max dps and maintain max ac at the same time? just change with the situation as needed.

[Borror0]

if it is so annoying, why try to do max dps and maintain max ac at the same time? just change with the situation as needed.

Lowers your effectiveness.

[slumbering_dragon]

well i play several pallies and i dont have that problem. i dont use the spells really, just resist energy and some times virtue but on the rare occasions i use remove peralisys on a team mate. i have 2 extra buttons on my mouse wich is set to smite evil and divine sacrafice. so i dont mind the way pallies are right now. i dont think pallies are very strong in buffing of any sort, IMO they suck for spell casting.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with you somewhat OP. It is a little much - all the short term buffs, but I think alot of people like playing paladins for precisely that reason. Its an active class unlike say a fighter which is just for the most part attack attack attack attack attack....

[artvan_delet]

I agree with you somewhat OP. It is a little much - all the short term buffs, but I think alot of people like playing paladins for precisely that reason. Its an active class unlike say a fighter which is just for the most part attack attack attack attack attack....

As many have said, the extend feat is a big help, almost necessary nowadays. If the devs can adjust divine favor, divine righteousness, and divine might durations to scale to level, then I think most paladins will be very glad. And if they made them undispellable because they're divine, well that would be fantastic.

[Inspire]

I love playing my Paladin, CE's cooldown was brought down to 6s and that helped ALOT.

But you shoudnt always be in Ac mode anyways, when you have a big fight and the Cleric is using Mass Heals your Ac is only as good as the lowest Ac in the group(although this doesnt apply when fighting casters, Ie; Eladrin in RwtD where your Ac doesnt matter). That said going from a 63 to a 58 Ac on my Paladin when completly unbuffed isnt much of a deal, turn on PA and you dont have to worry about turning CE on after it breaks(which only takes 1s to turn back on btw). If you cant keep up with the twitch and button mashing play style that is Paladin take Extend as a feat, it will help you alot.

Just my 2cp.

[EazyWeazy]

I love playing my Paladin, CE's cooldown was brought down to 6s and that helped ALOT.

QFT

That said...I would love to see some more progress in this direction. The OP's example of trying to buff with the necessary short duration spells is something that I also experience.

Another prime example is during VoD. You can be standing there intimidating and all of the sudden your AC drops by 5 because you had to drink a remove curse pot or cast it on yourself? Going from 70ish AC down 5 can really suck and further complicates it when you're trying to intimidate and get CE back on.

I'm not saying that one encounter should create change...but this could be any boss fight that you need to buff up throughout the fight.

On a side note...I never understood why CE would drop while casting, but PA would not. I never really appreciated it until I had my Paladin and got used to reactivating CE all the time. I go back to my DPS ranger build and never have to mess with PA...other than when I log in of course.

[EinarMal]

I don't mind re-casting spell buffs but I do not like clicky attacks all that well. It feels more detached (to me) for some reason like I am not really swinging anymore like normal. I also lose probably 10% that simply go back on timer with no effect. Also so many mobs run non stop that gets annoying as well.

I love playing buff based fighters (Bards, Clerics, Paladins) I do not like Monks because of all the hot bar attacks and it would be hard for me to play a full Paladin and use all the special divine sacrifice/smite stuff.

I like even haste boost etc...it basically comes down to I do not like hot bar attacks that mess with the normal mouse attack. That just feels better to me personally.

[Inspire]

Another prime example is during VoD. You can be standing there intimidating and all of the sudden your AC drops by 5 because you had to drink a remove curse pot or cast it on yourself? Going from 70ish AC down 5 can really suck and further complicates it when you're trying to intimidate and get CE back on.

I actually dont mind getting hit on my Paladin. Take CE off and block, with Concoordiant Opp and Healer's Bounty I get free Heals and Sp back. Although Im sure many Paladins dont have the same gear setup as mine.

On a side note...I never understood why CE would drop while casting, but PA would not. I never really appreciated it until I had my Paladin and got used to reactivating CE all the time.

So Casters dont have a permenant +5Ac, IMO thats what I think the reasoning behind the 6s cooldown is.

[Borror0]

On a side note...I never understood why CE would drop while casting, but PA would not.

In PnP, both last until your next round.

When adapting PA and CE to DDO, CE and PA were made stances as any other use would be kind of odd: for CE or PA to activate you'd have to be swinging at a monster. Pa could be left on all the time, as its effect is only when you are swinging. CE got to be deactivated by some actions since AC is beneficial even when you are not swinging.

So Casters dont have a permenant +5Ac, IMO thats what I think the reasoning behind the 6s cooldown is.

Is that really game breaking?

At worse, they could make CE toggle on/off automatically.

[Junts]

I recently stumbled over a post in the rogue forums which nearly summarized the current issues with the Paladin class:




He neatly summarized the reason why i am not playing a Paladin, although the fluff and the versatility of the class really interest me. All those short-time boosts and required short-time-buffs to keep a Paladin up to par have relegated this class to a potential 2-level-splash for me.


Are there others out there who feel the same way?
Are those who are currently running a Paladin also annoyed with the click-fest? Or do you even like the "always-active" feeling on your Paladin?
Who would welcome a change in the Paladin away from the button-mashing?

if i didnt have 3 buffs to keep up and 2 timered clickies to use in combat, I'd be incredibly bored. how do other melees play this game when all they have/can do is target something and autoattack it til it dies? i have tons of stuff to use and still watch bars to throw lays/etc on people and umd appropriate buffs.

the only time my buffs/timed attacks annoy me is when i run out of sp and can't do them anymore, and that doesn't happen very often now that I've got over 500 sp via shroud items.

[shores11]

He neatly summarized the reason why i am not playing a Paladin, although the fluff and the versatility of the class really interest me. All those short-time boosts and required short-time-buffs to keep a Paladin up to par have relegated this class to a potential 2-level-splash for me.

Are there others out there who feel the same way?
Are those who are currently running a Paladin also annoyed with the click-fest? Or do you even like the "always-active" feeling on your Paladin?
Who would welcome a change in the Paladin away from the button-mashing?

I have a level 16 paladin and love playing him very much in fact it has inspired my game play beyond what it already was. In the D&D world one has to know the role of each class maybe even before you role that class. The paladin is a great support fighter and in general will never produce the DPS a fighter or barbarian can. I understand this and accept it but still choose to play a paladin.

My paladin currently can achieve 60 AC with my own ability's and buffs. With bards song, recitation and I am sure I am missing one or two I believe I can close in on 70 AC. Even though my AC is high I did not hurt my abiity to DPS that much especially since I crafted a triple positive kopesh from the shroud but my DPS was pretty good before that. Do I usually lead in kill count? No, but I do upon occasion which lets me know damage wise my paladin is effective in a group.

The clicking on combat expertise and other clickables do not bather me that much because in fact that is part of why I am a paladin. I enjoy the way I have to remain very busy with fighting, healing, buffing and managing all of that in a quest.

To sum it up I guess, to each his own.

[Desteria]

I hate having to button mash.....

BUT I actuly think pally are doing purty good now i finaly got a +3 dex tome and pulled my old palyl over to TWF and OMG hes a BEAST, he can solo poertals faster then my STR ranger with favored construct!!!!!
Pallys liek all melle need to be TWF fro DPS, they will get there BEST AC liek all other melles be beign a DEX heavy TWF build with 1 monk level.
S&B wich is a archtype tipical for pallys has the same problem as any other S&B melle....
Pallys only reall trick is balancing your stats is harder because you need dex cha str wis con IF your goign for AC TWF

I agree spell with 1-2 timers droppign CE is anoying, and somehtign that may need to be looked at....

Also once again I HATE the button mashign needed same for monks to kepe dps peak you need to MASH

[Emili]

I do not know for others but imo, Pally's button mashing - while a tad more then my other melee - really is not that bad... then again I use

Amilia (Pally)... Power attack, divine might + divine favor + zeal, and blanket smite big mob not trash mob. A rage potion if casters do not have it.

Compared to Emili (fighter)... Power Attack, haste boosts at key points, cleaves, trips and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Meallach (Barb) .... Power Attack, Rage, an occasional trip and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Einin (tempest ranger) ... Power Attack, Rams might, A rage potion if casters do not have it. I guess is the easiest.

They typiclly wear madstones (except against likes of Harry) and Meallach is often bloodraged... clickie or potion drinking of course is out then...

Only Emili sports CE and uses it (on occasion) when not in PA mode... and again the fighter suffers the same as any other melee when it comes to clickies or potions outside of just cures...

Emili was rerolled three times to play with feats... untill I settled on a build which could feat spec anything melee.

Let me explain the CE toggle off... The original Emili - pre- mod 1 - was pressed hard intimi-tank having a buffable 64ac back at cap 10 when TS was our raid... at that time everyone was 28 points - no favor rewards were available, just four enhancements available, fighter CE was one of them... Spec optics were the best protection item... very few items sported other forms of AC and not many melee builds/classes outside of fighter could come close as they were feat starved (only 4 feats)... No other class could come close to the AC of a fighter build...

So there was a large gap... intimidating fighters with a 60AC was next to unhittable by the mob of the day. I truely believe the devs made the CE stance deactivate to keep intimi-fighters from running around with a perm ac feat back when AC's were a tad harder for mob to hit... the mob in TS elite only hit Emili on a 20. Thus the AC deactivate was to give the mob a chance. People complained that they wanted AC to matter some on other classes and when Turbine revamped the enhancement system, revomed CE enhancements... come GH mod they also increased mob to-hit to adjust for everyones new found AC. Add in the increase of AC rich loot and thus AC became attainable by all. It is probably time they revisit CE as a feat and conclude that the toggle off on item/spell usage is unneeded. I know of people now buffing into 100ac at peaks when the stars align...

My view on melee is not single faceted... I believe there should not be wide gaps in AC, DPS, saves, etc... these should be relitively close in all melee classes... I played a intimitank, a tactical one a Dps one and really there is more fun in a character who can do all three well rather then one who's just an expert at one.

[Jondallar]

if i didnt have 3 buffs to keep up and 2 timered clickies to use in combat, I'd be incredibly bored. how do other melees play this game when all they have/can do is target something and autoattack it til it dies? i have tons of stuff to use and still watch bars to throw lays/etc on people and umd appropriate buffs.

the only time my buffs/timed attacks annoy me is when i run out of sp and can't do them anymore, and that doesn't happen very often now that I've got over 500 sp via shroud items.

QFT this is what I feel , especially now that I am leveling a Barb... Barbarian = Boring (except for the demands of restores and curse removals ect)

How about another idea...make the Combat Casting feat cause CE to stay on always. Give it to Pally's and Bards as a class ability at higher levels. That way, if you have a Cleric, Sorc or Wizzy build and it matters to you, you can take it and have access as well...

Just at thought, and maybe not a well thought out one at that...

Excellent idea, it could even be made a wizard meta magic/fighter/monk bonus feat so those classes would not have to sacrifice as much to get it.

I do not know for others but imo, Pally's button mashing - while a tad more then my other melee - really is not that bad... then again I use

Amilia (Pally)... Power attack, divine might + divine favor + zeal, and blanket smite big mob not trash mob. A rage potion if casters do not have it.

Compared to Emili (fighter)... Power Attack, haste boosts at key points, cleaves, trips and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Meallach (Barb) .... Power Attack, Rage, an occasional trip and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Einin (tempest ranger) ... Power Attack, Rams might, A rage potion if casters do not have it. I guess is the easiest.

They typiclly wear madstones (except against likes of Harry) and Meallach is often bloodraged... clickie or potion drinking of course is out then...

Only Emili sports CE and uses it (on occasion) when not in PA mode... and again the fighter suffers the same as any other melee when it comes to clickies or potions outside of just cures...

Emili was rerolled three times to play with feats... untill I settled on a build which could feat spec anything melee.

Let me explain the CE toggle off... The original Emili - pre- mod 1 - was pressed hard intimi-tank having a buffable 64ac back at cap 10 when TS was our raid... at that time everyone was 28 points - no favor rewards were available, just four enhancements available, fighter CE was one of them... Spec optics were the best protection item... very few items sported other forms of AC and not many melee builds/classes outside of fighter could come close as they were feat starved (only 4 feats)... No other class could come close to the AC of a fighter build...

So there was a large gap... intimidating fighters with a 60AC was next to unhittable by the mob of the day. I truely believe the devs made the CE stance deactivate to keep intimi-fighters from running around with a perm ac feat back when AC's were a tad harder for mob to hit... the mob in TS elite only hit Emili on a 20. Thus the AC deactivate was to give the mob a chance. People complained that they wanted AC to matter some on other classes and when Turbine revamped the enhancement system, revomed CE enhancements... come GH mod they also increased mob to-hit to adjust for everyones new found AC. Add in the increase of AC rich loot and thus AC became attainable by all. It is probably time they revisit CE as a feat and conclude that the toggle off on item/spell usage is unneeded. I know of people now buffing into 100ac at peaks when the stars align...

My view on melee is not single faceted... I believe there should not be wide gaps in AC, DPS, saves, etc... these should be relitively close in all melee classes... I played a intimitank, a tactical one a Dps one and really there is more fun in a character who can do all three well rather then one who's just an expert at one.

Well said, completely agree