Paladin: The sad Truth

[jakeelala]

you really need to read up on pally builds talon.

AC is a matter of gear in this game, and with very few exceptions for a couple of AC not based on class anymore. check the AC threads.

pallys do ENORMOUS damage. Divine Might is ridiculous. Exalted Smites are ridiculous. Divine Sacrafice is Ridiclous.

You can pretty much hit ES or DS anytime you know you need a crit (in my case dualing rapiers on a drow pally) and banish/smite/dual ES crit (dps) whatever you want.

its hard to make a good pally, its nothing close to impossible.

[Inspire]

How on earth to build a good DDO Pal? I don't know. Nor have I seen a build yet that I considered good.

What qualifies as good to you?

You need to research Paladin builds a little more I should think.

[Inspire]

I don't see clickies as a prob for Pal. Monks are way worse IMO.

I wont even go there. Run with me on Untouchable or Atlantean sometime, maybe I can change your outlook on these classes, not because Im an uber player but because when played propperly they can accomplish great things.

[sephiroth1084]

Since I'm the one whose quote initiated this thread, I feel I should probably chime in...

As anyone can see in my sig, I like paladins (with a little fighter mixed in) despite this deficiency they have. I use a gamepad, which makes the ability and spell juggling manageable, and have the extend feat, which further improves manageability. That said, I also am aware that I may be losing DPS by keeping all this stuff up.

I can't be bothered to do the timing and run the numbers, but how many swings does a paladin lose when bringing everything back up? Is it outweighed by the additional damage of DF and DM? What level of DM is the breaking point? Do you need extend for DF and Zeal to be worth it? Does Zeal make the package worth it? I suspect that DM I may not be worth it. I'd find it interesting to see whether all of the paladin abilities actually detract from overall DPS or not.


As for the comments about CE and its being dropped by casting a spell, I'm sure that it was exactly as stated: to prevent Wizards (especially), sorcs, bards and clerics from running around with +5 AC all the time. Sure, as the game stands now, AC on any of these characters ceases to matter around level 12-14, but I imagine that when the cap was 10 or 12, CE would have been meaningful for the entirety of the content. Even now, that +5 AC on a caster in the early game would make a huge difference, as they would be able to get AC comparable to that of a tank, without the requiisite penalty associated with the feat.

I do wish Turbine had simply exempted paladins from this. Perhaps we can get an enhancement or special ability that turns this off in the future?

[sephiroth1084]

I think you are overstating the problem....at least about Palllies.

CE and spells/clickies is a problem for everyone.
So is short term clickies/buffs.......not just Pallies.

Every AC build shows shield clickies and CE for instance. Many also show Haste and Barkskin pots.

My Monk has CE, but it is almost always being turned off for some reason or another, and I'm not even a high AC build.....it is just part of the flaw in this feat.

...more stuff...

Barkskin and Haste pots do not turn off CE (as far as I recall...been a while since I drank either on Ferrumrym)., and bark at least has a duration of around 6 minutes anyway Many shield-less AC builds try to get the UMD to use Shield wands, which have a longer duration than clickies or pots (why haven't higher CL shield clickies been introduced?). Also, these builds tend to have only one short duration buff that needs bringing back up repeatedly.

The problem with monks is that, for some reason, using their finishing moves turns off CE. Hopefully this will be fixed soon since there is NO reason for this. Still, a monk can get by without bothering with finishers at all if he's in a full group.


As for building a viable paladin, you really should look around the boards and read up on them some more. Wisdom is a dump stat generally, and they can get meaningful AC and still produce a fair amount of DPS. Not as much as a ranger or barbarian, but it is not pitiful.

[Aesop]

I have no problem with CE not turning off on Casting. Hell make it take a concentration check if you want DC 15 + spell level.

wouldn't bother me in the least

Aesop

[shores11]

He neatly summarized the reason why i am not playing a Paladin, although the fluff and the versatility of the class really interest me. All those short-time boosts and required short-time-buffs to keep a Paladin up to par have relegated this class to a potential 2-level-splash for me.

Are there others out there who feel the same way?
Are those who are currently running a Paladin also annoyed with the click-fest? Or do you even like the "always-active" feeling on your Paladin?
Who would welcome a change in the Paladin away from the button-mashing?

I have a level 16 paladin and love playing him very much in fact it has inspired my game play beyond what it already was. In the D&D world one has to know the role of each class maybe even before you role that class. The paladin is a great support fighter and in general will never produce the DPS a fighter or barbarian can. I understand this and accept it but still choose to play a paladin.

My paladin currently can achieve 60 AC with my own ability's and buffs. With bards song, recitation and I am sure I am missing one or two I believe I can close in on 70 AC. Even though my AC is high I did not hurt my abiity to DPS that much especially since I crafted a triple positive kopesh from the shroud but my DPS was pretty good before that. Do I usually lead in kill count? No, but I do upon occasion which lets me know damage wise my paladin is effective in a group.

The clicking on combat expertise and other clickables do not bather me that much because in fact that is part of why I am a paladin. I enjoy the way I have to remain very busy with fighting, healing, buffing and managing all of that in a quest.

To sum it up I guess, to each his own.

[Desteria]

I hate having to button mash.....

BUT I actuly think pally are doing purty good now i finaly got a +3 dex tome and pulled my old palyl over to TWF and OMG hes a BEAST, he can solo poertals faster then my STR ranger with favored construct!!!!!
Pallys liek all melle need to be TWF fro DPS, they will get there BEST AC liek all other melles be beign a DEX heavy TWF build with 1 monk level.
S&B wich is a archtype tipical for pallys has the same problem as any other S&B melle....
Pallys only reall trick is balancing your stats is harder because you need dex cha str wis con IF your goign for AC TWF

I agree spell with 1-2 timers droppign CE is anoying, and somehtign that may need to be looked at....

Also once again I HATE the button mashign needed same for monks to kepe dps peak you need to MASH

[Emili]

I do not know for others but imo, Pally's button mashing - while a tad more then my other melee - really is not that bad... then again I use

Amilia (Pally)... Power attack, divine might + divine favor + zeal, and blanket smite big mob not trash mob. A rage potion if casters do not have it.

Compared to Emili (fighter)... Power Attack, haste boosts at key points, cleaves, trips and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Meallach (Barb) .... Power Attack, Rage, an occasional trip and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Einin (tempest ranger) ... Power Attack, Rams might, A rage potion if casters do not have it. I guess is the easiest.

They typiclly wear madstones (except against likes of Harry) and Meallach is often bloodraged... clickie or potion drinking of course is out then...

Only Emili sports CE and uses it (on occasion) when not in PA mode... and again the fighter suffers the same as any other melee when it comes to clickies or potions outside of just cures...

Emili was rerolled three times to play with feats... untill I settled on a build which could feat spec anything melee.

Let me explain the CE toggle off... The original Emili - pre- mod 1 - was pressed hard intimi-tank having a buffable 64ac back at cap 10 when TS was our raid... at that time everyone was 28 points - no favor rewards were available, just four enhancements available, fighter CE was one of them... Spec optics were the best protection item... very few items sported other forms of AC and not many melee builds/classes outside of fighter could come close as they were feat starved (only 4 feats)... No other class could come close to the AC of a fighter build...

So there was a large gap... intimidating fighters with a 60AC was next to unhittable by the mob of the day. I truely believe the devs made the CE stance deactivate to keep intimi-fighters from running around with a perm ac feat back when AC's were a tad harder for mob to hit... the mob in TS elite only hit Emili on a 20. Thus the AC deactivate was to give the mob a chance. People complained that they wanted AC to matter some on other classes and when Turbine revamped the enhancement system, revomed CE enhancements... come GH mod they also increased mob to-hit to adjust for everyones new found AC. Add in the increase of AC rich loot and thus AC became attainable by all. It is probably time they revisit CE as a feat and conclude that the toggle off on item/spell usage is unneeded. I know of people now buffing into 100ac at peaks when the stars align...

My view on melee is not single faceted... I believe there should not be wide gaps in AC, DPS, saves, etc... these should be relitively close in all melee classes... I played a intimitank, a tactical one a Dps one and really there is more fun in a character who can do all three well rather then one who's just an expert at one.

[Jondallar]

if i didnt have 3 buffs to keep up and 2 timered clickies to use in combat, I'd be incredibly bored. how do other melees play this game when all they have/can do is target something and autoattack it til it dies? i have tons of stuff to use and still watch bars to throw lays/etc on people and umd appropriate buffs.

the only time my buffs/timed attacks annoy me is when i run out of sp and can't do them anymore, and that doesn't happen very often now that I've got over 500 sp via shroud items.

QFT this is what I feel , especially now that I am leveling a Barb... Barbarian = Boring (except for the demands of restores and curse removals ect)

How about another idea...make the Combat Casting feat cause CE to stay on always. Give it to Pally's and Bards as a class ability at higher levels. That way, if you have a Cleric, Sorc or Wizzy build and it matters to you, you can take it and have access as well...

Just at thought, and maybe not a well thought out one at that...

Excellent idea, it could even be made a wizard meta magic/fighter/monk bonus feat so those classes would not have to sacrifice as much to get it.

I do not know for others but imo, Pally's button mashing - while a tad more then my other melee - really is not that bad... then again I use

Amilia (Pally)... Power attack, divine might + divine favor + zeal, and blanket smite big mob not trash mob. A rage potion if casters do not have it.

Compared to Emili (fighter)... Power Attack, haste boosts at key points, cleaves, trips and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Meallach (Barb) .... Power Attack, Rage, an occasional trip and occasional damage boosts(rarely). A rage potion if casters do not have it.

or Einin (tempest ranger) ... Power Attack, Rams might, A rage potion if casters do not have it. I guess is the easiest.

They typiclly wear madstones (except against likes of Harry) and Meallach is often bloodraged... clickie or potion drinking of course is out then...

Only Emili sports CE and uses it (on occasion) when not in PA mode... and again the fighter suffers the same as any other melee when it comes to clickies or potions outside of just cures...

Emili was rerolled three times to play with feats... untill I settled on a build which could feat spec anything melee.

Let me explain the CE toggle off... The original Emili - pre- mod 1 - was pressed hard intimi-tank having a buffable 64ac back at cap 10 when TS was our raid... at that time everyone was 28 points - no favor rewards were available, just four enhancements available, fighter CE was one of them... Spec optics were the best protection item... very few items sported other forms of AC and not many melee builds/classes outside of fighter could come close as they were feat starved (only 4 feats)... No other class could come close to the AC of a fighter build...

So there was a large gap... intimidating fighters with a 60AC was next to unhittable by the mob of the day. I truely believe the devs made the CE stance deactivate to keep intimi-fighters from running around with a perm ac feat back when AC's were a tad harder for mob to hit... the mob in TS elite only hit Emili on a 20. Thus the AC deactivate was to give the mob a chance. People complained that they wanted AC to matter some on other classes and when Turbine revamped the enhancement system, revomed CE enhancements... come GH mod they also increased mob to-hit to adjust for everyones new found AC. Add in the increase of AC rich loot and thus AC became attainable by all. It is probably time they revisit CE as a feat and conclude that the toggle off on item/spell usage is unneeded. I know of people now buffing into 100ac at peaks when the stars align...

My view on melee is not single faceted... I believe there should not be wide gaps in AC, DPS, saves, etc... these should be relitively close in all melee classes... I played a intimitank, a tactical one a Dps one and really there is more fun in a character who can do all three well rather then one who's just an expert at one.

Well said, completely agree