Making Clerics easier to play, and find for PUGs

[Sillk]

I've heard alot of Clerics talking about the expense of keeping a group alive, and confirmed this thru my own experiences. It's a difficult job depending on some groups or quests, and a lot of responsibility. A difficult quest, or difficult player in a situation where a Cleric is watching is limited (read as Expensive) Heal scrolls or wands being used up and once you're out, often the party wipes and you've wasted all that effort, and resources.

I was thinking about what could solve this, or at least diminish the expense and make it possible for more Clerics to be prepared in quests to do a lot of healing.

This may not be the ultimate solution, but it would definitely help: Special Heal Scrolls with a ridiculously high UMD and a low price. Maybe given as a favor reward. Or wands, maybe include other spells like Rez or CSW, depending on the Dev's direction.

Essentially only a Cleric with the Heal spell could use it, because the UMD would be beyond attainable. They would be inexpensive, so it would be possible for a Cleric to afford buying them and having a stock ready when necessary. It could eliminate a cleric asking for donations, and being upset when the mana sponge doesn't help out.
This would be set up to favor Clerics only, so the UMD rogues, etc. would still have to pay for their scrolls as usual.

By eliminating the expense, you may find better, more prepaired Clerics, and find them more often. Just my 2cp.

[Enochroot]

I've heard alot of Clerics talking about the expense of keeping a group alive, and confirmed this thru my own experiences. It's a difficult job depending on some groups or quests, and a lot of responsibility. A difficult quest, or difficult player in a situation where a Cleric is watching is limited (read as Expensive) Heal scrolls or wands being used up and once you're out, often the party wipes and you've wasted all that effort, and resources.

I was thinking about what could solve this, or at least diminish the expense and make it possible for more Clerics to be prepared in quests to do a lot of healing.

This may not be the ultimate solution, but it would definitely help: Special Heal Scrolls with a ridiculously high UMD and a low price. Maybe given as a favor reward. Or wands, maybe include other spells like Rez or CSW, depending on the Dev's direction.

Essentially only a Cleric with the Heal spell could use it, because the UMD would be beyond attainable. They would be inexpensive, so it would be possible for a Cleric to afford buying them and having a stock ready when necessary. It could eliminate a cleric asking for donations, and being upset when the mana sponge doesn't help out.
This would be set up to favor Clerics only, so the UMD rogues, etc. would still have to pay for their scrolls as usual.

By eliminating the expense, you may find better, more prepaired Clerics, and find them more often. Just my 2cp.

This suggestion would actually make WORSE, more prepared clerics.


I feel the need to repost what a million others have said, and myself, just now. =P

If you feel this way about clerics, you're playing them wrong. Either you don't have the ability to play one correctly or you're simply going about it the wrong way. But don't bash the class and discourage others, just don't play one.

Clerics are easily top three easiest and cheapest soloing class, meaning almost all quests you should be able to get through with zero resources at all, once you hit level 11. Yes, the stretch from about 6-9 can be a bit painful but shouldn't cost any more than 10-20k plat.

Clerics are also the best class to get better as a player at the game - it will teach you more about how party member actions affect party resources than playing any other class. But you must learn to utilize those resources optimally at all times. If you're just watching health bars, you're doing it wrong, think of something else you can do to make it to the next shrine, be creative! (Can you aggro a mob or few and kite them while the party fights and you still heal? Can you intimidate? Can you CC? Etc). But you *will* become heavily aware of health bars and party resources at all times, and this will make you a better player of any other class.

Sometimes you must choose in letting a raid be expensive or not. But this is YOUR choice. My first VoD when it was new I spent 12 majors and whatever amount of scrolls - but I knew my limits and my own resources.

When I left the game my cleric had 1.4 million plat, 50 majors on hand (not bragging, I know people have more money/majors than I, just giving an example), and has consistently geared out and resourced all my other toons.

If you don't think you'll gain enjoyment about being the driving force behind a party's success, don't play a cleric. If you are only going to get enjoyment out of beating stuff up (rather than the *party* beating stuff up) - don't play a cleric.

But this "it's too expensive" **** is a problem with people that don't understand the class, not a problem with the class.

[seldarin]

I personally carry 300 heal scrolls and 200 MCMW scrolls on my capped cleric all the time, and 10-12 majors. Dont really worry about wands anymore, they are ok at lower lvls for topping up, but high end not worth it.

It is my choice to carry that many scrolls etc and be prepared. Additionally i carry around 30 RD scrolls. Once again, my choice. On average i spend around 300k PP to outfit all 10 of my characters with potions, scrolls and spell components and depending on gametime this lasts a few weeks.

I have lost count of the number of times ppl have said its expensive running a cleric and ask for donations. I never ask, nor accept, donations, that again is my choice.

I have been in groups where clerics heal off scrolls and wands and use their mana for ummmmm, other purposes (self buffing, self healing, wandering into combat), that is THEIR choice and as such i dont feel the need to reimburse them for the choice they have made.

IF they do a good job and by this i dont necessarily mean just heal, but do what is required in the group, then i will recompense them, i normally ask what they have gone through and recompense accordingly, even if they say not to. That again is my choice.

Managing resources and peoples expectations will lead to a much more enjoyable clericing experience, rather than being a persons one stop bandaid shop.

Often when i hear a capped character asking for a lesser restore between fights, i will tell them that there are potions for that, especially if i have overheard them saying how much plat they have.

As posted before, if the cost of running a cleric is your primary concern, dont play one. If you enjoy the aspects they bring to the game, then play one

[esoitl]

Often when i hear a capped character asking for a lesser restore between fights, i will tell them that there are potions for that, especially if i have overheard them saying how much plat they have.

That is one of the things that urks me to no end.
Simple pots and clickies are readily available and cheap. Disease Immunity, Poison Proof, and Blindness Ward are available on some pretty easy to find items. Peopl should have these equipped as well as carrying pots in case they don't have them or don't have them equipped. Hell, in the few runs of TR I normally get an excess of Blindness Removal pots to last me character to cap.... it's too easy for most characters to not have a pot or clicky of the common things.

Don't be afraid to call someone out on not having something. I often feel embarassed at times to ask for Elemental Protections on some of my highers as it's almost neccesary in 50% of the quests. While not everyone does it most should outfit themselves with plenty of clickies for the common stuff.

[Kalari]

I would have agreed with you when I first started out with my cleric. But I think anyone with a full level 16 now knows that its not so much the expense of playing a cleric that makes us scarce or guild/friend only. Its that a lot of people tend to play foolishly when they know a cleric is present. Even worst they forget to tend to certain things that can help a cleric out (Ie curses, disease, poison) and think were unlimited sources of mana/items. Ive learned that on the rare occassion I pug with any of my clerics that I use what I have at my disposal and nothing more. It may make me seem like a bad cleric in some peoples eyes but we are not there to just bandaid. And if a team works together properly my job as cleric should be more rewarding then just sitting back throwing heals and cures.

I understand what your getting at op, and I also sympathize with other clerics who do want to give their all to a party. But just as I said before I play this game for my enjoyment as well and its too easy to get burnt out as a cleric when people try to put you into one roll in a quest. My advice to any cleric is know the limits of your kindness know what your willing to expend to keep your party up during a quest and dont ever put any more then that unless YOU wish to do so.

Ive already said I wont ever make any of them top ten lists because I play my cleric at the pace I fell comfortable which means stupid players will die if Im out of mana and dont have reasource or wish to use my resources on said player. Its a hard attitude to have but after wasting tons of plat on pots and scrolls and not even getting a thanks at times you learn that sometimes its not worth throwing money at the problem.

[Sillk]

I play a pretty good cleric, but as you've pointed out Kalari, you can burn out on them. I think it really boils down to, if you are a good cleric, you're probably exploited more than bad clerics.

I've been in groups where you know the cleric is struggling, so you really watch your step. I've clericed some groups where the party starts getting more and more zergish, spread out, or just in over their heads because you've handled them well to that point.

I'm just thinking of if I didn't MIND healing the people who take up the most resourses (unnecessarily), I wouldn't mind playing my cleric in more pugs, and adapting my role to the speed of the group.

[Enochroot]

I play a pretty good cleric, but as you've pointed out Kalari, you can burn out on them. I think it really boils down to, if you are a good cleric, you're probably exploited more than bad clerics.

I've been in groups where you know the cleric is struggling, so you really watch your step. I've clericed some groups where the party starts getting more and more zergish, spread out, or just in over their heads because you've handled them well to that point.

I'm just thinking of if I didn't MIND healing the people who take up the most resourses (unnecessarily), I wouldn't mind playing my cleric in more pugs, and adapting my role to the speed of the group.

Just learn to handle those sponges and you'll have a great time. My favorite tactic is keeping ineffective players as close to one hit from death as you can (ie, keep them at 5% health) - they learn to wise up quickly, ask why they're not getting heals (at which point tell them in DEPTH why you're not healing them), or they leave the group. All of these are great outcomes.

Leading groups as a cleric is most effective, you're the one that's really doing the leading. Lead, sometimes this takes tough love.

[Sillk]

i think a lot of you are missing some of what i'm trying to say.

I play a pretty good cleric, i've let people die because they got too far ahead, or were taking away from the rest of the party.

But there has to be SOME reason why it's so hard to find a Cleric. If you set up a LFM, and aren't looking for the guild to join you.... it's often that you're waiting for some Cleric to join.

I think that there are 2 reasons why there aren't many Clerics, one is that they are hard to play. The other is that there are something like 6 melee classes, 2 other caster classes, and the cleric (and bards aren't always Healing Spec'ed).

Maybe just the Cure Lights, and Cure Mod's could be cheaper, or something... call it cleric training. I just think we need more Clerics. And until Druids come out to add another strong healer to the player pool, some of us will be waiting in LFM's for awhile. And taking what we can get.

[Enochroot]

i think a lot of you are missing some of what i'm trying to say.

I play a pretty good cleric, i've let people die because they got too far ahead, or were taking away from the rest of the party.

But there has to be SOME reason why it's so hard to find a Cleric. If you set up a LFM, and aren't looking for the guild to join you.... it's often that you're waiting for some Cleric to join.

I think that there are 2 reasons why there aren't many Clerics, one is that they are hard to play. The other is that there are something like 6 melee classes, 2 other caster classes, and the cleric (and bards aren't always Healing Spec'ed).

Maybe just the Cure Lights, and Cure Mod's could be cheaper, or something... call it cleric training. I just think we need more Clerics. And until Druids come out to add another strong healer to the player pool, some of us will be waiting in LFM's for awhile. And taking what we can get.

If you have a good cleric yourself it seems like you'll never wait for a good cleric to join. I certainly never have.

[Sillk]

If you have a good cleric yourself it seems like you'll never wait for a good cleric to join. I certainly never have.

Um, sometimes I play one of my other characters.... I bring out my cleric for the guild, but usually not much else. I get tired of letting people die to "teach them a lesson"

[Kalari]

I personally think its hard to find a cleric because most of the people who now have high level clerics have gone threw the motions. They know how hard it is at all levels dealing with people who are so focused on being Top Kill Dog, that they forget they are not invincible and are mana sponges. Also even at high level end there are still players that think that at level 16 you should have ungodly amounts of mana, and if not have enough plat to throw hundreds of heal scrolls and major pots at a situation for their lack of dps and coordination.

I dont think making it easier heal wise or giving them other benefits towards healing will help the solution. I think players learning that Clerics though able to heal and cure things are also characters who may have other things to bring to a quest is needed. That working as a team and not trying to show boat makes a person playing a cleric or primary healer period happy.

What I like seeing as a cleric and if I saw more of this my two lowbie clerics would pug more is this.

1. Casters who actually like crowd control spells. Ive nothing against nukers some of the best players I know can nuke the hell out of things but nukers who dont realize they dont have unlimited sp and are too squishy for the aggro they bring by their maximized empowered firewalls aggrivate me to no end.

2. Fighters who realize though they are tanks that they do not have to rush ahead killing everything and taking damage. That use Intimidate to help the rogue get their backstab bonuses or know to lead the mobs to a place where they can be easily picked off by the team.

3. People who bother to take the time to buy their own pots for restoration, disease, poison, or even better those who can use the wands or umd them. My girls are all self sufficent even my wizard has a pot/wand for every occassion and can umd heal wands to top myself off during a heated battle.

4. Clerics who realize that some people are just not worth saving all the time. Reasources are only as expensive as your willing to buy them and ive seen many cleric and have been guilty before learning my less in wasting all my plat in keeping up with scrolls/pots and making sure to use them just to keep the party alive when its clear they have no buisness tackling such a hard quest. (Ie low levels pulling off elite GH things just to say they can).

Being a cleric is as rough as the person playing the cleric makes it. Ive helped with healing/buffs on my ranger and mage so I know that others if they value getting the job done as a team can help with this. To me its not a matter of how good the cleric is its of how bad other people play because of how good you are. Its why I refuse to be overly kind anymore. My cleric maybe good at healing but she can also shoot bows, and has a decent dex making her capable of fighting and dodging things when needed. Some of the best times ive had playing her is when the party asks "hey can you range this for us?" Instead of the constant "HEAL ME" **** Ive gotten with pugs.

So thats one of the reasons I think you dont see many people offering their clerics up, heck when I asked for advice a few months back in my own thread one of the first things I was told is to go anonymous and man that helped me a lot especially from rude people who would send me tells even when im groupped to run with them. So to me the problem isnt that their arent enough clerics playing, its just that there are enough bad players out there that make it where we are very selective on our availibilty. IN fact unless you have my girls in your friends list or im in the same guild most people do not know my clerics are on unless I look at the lfm and decide I wish to do that quest. I think a lot of clerics are doing this now not because of the expense but because stupid players make playing a cleric hard and aggrivating.

But im rambling on now sorry I got so long winded I just dont think helping us with benefits to healing or lessening expenses will do anything but make a bad situation worst. I think it will make people who are babysitter dependant worst players, I think it will breed clerics who think that they have to worry about bad players instead of learning the full effect of what their class can do for them. Divine casting isnt only about healing things and a good cleric can be just effective as a blaster/banisher as they are a wound healer.

[Elaril]

But there has to be SOME reason why it's so hard to find a Cleric.

A good deal of the playerbase has already rolled and leveled up one or two clerics. They might choose to level another cleric, but probabaly not. They instead spend their remaining character slots on classes/class combinations that they have not already tried. That is why you sometimes have to run lower to mid level content sans cleric.

[Lorichie]

i think a lot of you are missing some of what i'm trying to say.

I play a pretty good cleric, i've let people die because they got too far ahead, or were taking away from the rest of the party.

But there has to be SOME reason why it's so hard to find a Cleric. If you set up a LFM, and aren't looking for the guild to join you.... it's often that you're waiting for some Cleric to join.

I think that there are 2 reasons why there aren't many Clerics, one is that they are hard to play. The other is that there are something like 6 melee classes, 2 other caster classes, and the cleric (and bards aren't always Healing Spec'ed).

Maybe just the Cure Lights, and Cure Mod's could be cheaper, or something... call it cleric training. I just think we need more Clerics. And until Druids come out to add another strong healer to the player pool, some of us will be waiting in LFM's for awhile. And taking what we can get.

All i can do here is give you my opinion, and speak specifically about me. Where you take it from there is up to you.
The reason why there are so many lfm's up there looking for clerics are not because the class is too expensive to play. It's not because they've been slighted before and are not coming down from the treehouse to play.

It's because that group, whatever and whoever they are, are relatively unknown at best, and "known" to the cleric at worst. At the very least someone in the group is anyways.

I have 4 level sixteen clerics, i have 4 lowbie clerics, on Khyber alone. I enjoy playing clerics. When i decide it's a particular cleric's turn to level up, i play that character hot and heavy until its capped, then i move onto another character and do the same, or take a break from leveling and just loot like i've been doing this month.

When i look at the lfm, i look for people i know, or at least am familiar with by reputation, Guilds i know, or at least familiar with by reputation. Then i look at what quest they want to do, and what the difficulty is. If i'm very comfortable with the quest, i may join, even if i dont know anyone in the group. Next i look for xp/ minute. I want to level fast and furious. I dont want to smell the daisies, or chit chat. However, if i decide to join a group that does, i will respect their choice and mosey along, relaxing while we do the quest. If its a quest that is barely going to net me xp, i'm not gonna join, unless someone i know asks for a favor.

Never, at any time do i ever think about how much it's going to cost. Never do i think about how much i spend. A cleric is relatively gear cheap. I consider consumables to be my gear, and i buy and use them as i see fit.

This is me. This is my opinion. There is no hidden statement, or veiled attempt at poor humor, what have you. THis is just how i feel. Take it for what you will, but especially at lower thru gh levels, if a cleric isnt joining, it's not because of money. Its something within the group, the group itself, the quest that is the reason.

Fwiw,

R

[BurnerD]

i think a lot of you are missing some of what i'm trying to say.

I play a pretty good cleric, i've let people die because they got too far ahead, or were taking away from the rest of the party.

But there has to be SOME reason why it's so hard to find a Cleric. If you set up a LFM, and aren't looking for the guild to join you.... it's often that you're waiting for some Cleric to join.

I think that there are 2 reasons why there aren't many Clerics, one is that they are hard to play. The other is that there are something like 6 melee classes, 2 other caster classes, and the cleric (and bards aren't always Healing Spec'ed).

Maybe just the Cure Lights, and Cure Mod's could be cheaper, or something... call it cleric training. I just think we need more Clerics. And until Druids come out to add another strong healer to the player pool, some of us will be waiting in LFM's for awhile. And taking what we can get.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think the real problem is cost.... the real issue is that people like to KILL stuff.. plain and simple. I know you can do this with a cleric also, but to those who want to KILL stuff the melees and nuking casters are preferred. Sure you can play a battle cleric, but we know how much the general DDO populace loves those... (although when played by a good player they can be AWESOME)

Once you get the hang of it Clerics aren't expensive... they are cash cows. As other people have stated the type of party one joins (mana sucking PUG) probably leads to a majority of the poor cleric complaints.

[Talish]

But there has to be SOME reason why it's so hard to find a Cleric. If you set up a LFM, and aren't looking for the guild to join you.... it's often that you're waiting for some Cleric to join.

The main reason my cleric is wary of PUG groups is NOT because of the cost - heck I give most of my stuff away constantly anyways. It's a bad habit *shakes head*

It's NOT because of those who run ahead and bring back agro.. heck that can be funny most times watching the mess they get themselves into.

The main reason I am wary of pick up groups is the verbal abuse that is often sent my way by the very player who is causing the group havok. I am not the only one either. I play the game to enjoy myself and anyone who knows me knows I am very patient, laid back and fun loving. I do not play the game to have someone half my age start yelling at me for their mistakes. I've spoken with other guild clerics and that is also the main reason they stay away from pick up groups.

So if you want more clerics available for group find a way to stop the verbal abuse by a select few. My "do not group with" list is starting to get rather long.

[seldarin]

I would have agreed with you when I first started out with my cleric. But I think anyone with a full level 16 now knows that its not so much the expense of playing a cleric that makes us scarce or guild/friend only. Its that a lot of people tend to play foolishly when they know a cleric is present. Even worst they forget to tend to certain things that can help a cleric out (Ie curses, disease, poison) and think were unlimited sources of mana/items. Ive learned that on the rare occassion I pug with any of my clerics that I use what I have at my disposal and nothing more. It may make me seem like a bad cleric in some peoples eyes but we are not there to just bandaid. And if a team works together properly my job as cleric should be more rewarding then just sitting back throwing heals and cures.

I understand what your getting at op, and I also sympathize with other clerics who do want to give their all to a party. But just as I said before I play this game for my enjoyment as well and its too easy to get burnt out as a cleric when people try to put you into one roll in a quest. My advice to any cleric is know the limits of your kindness know what your willing to expend to keep your party up during a quest and dont ever put any more then that unless YOU wish to do so.

Ive already said I wont ever make any of them top ten lists because I play my cleric at the pace I fell comfortable which means stupid players will die if Im out of mana and dont have reasource or wish to use my resources on said player. Its a hard attitude to have but after wasting tons of plat on pots and scrolls and not even getting a thanks at times you learn that sometimes its not worth throwing money at the problem.

I quite agree, i used to adopt the heal all mentality, but have hardened considerably to the point that if a party wipes and i have done what i can, i dont pay any heed to any comments directed my way. Im not their nursemaid, i will heal, but if its something like curse/disease/lesser restore, quick stop at the potion shop is your friend. The mana you save me there, might be the mana that casts the heal spell to save your ass.

In a group once i overheard a fighter say, "the cleric will get that" when referring to remove curse/fear/disease or something such else. My response was somewhat as demeaning, implying that there is no shortage of potions available. Easiest way to find yourself short on healing, is to the annoy your healer if you arent self sufficient

Sometimes there are people out there that no amount of healing will fix, and after cheweing through numerous resources, wiping, getting no thanks for what you did do AND being berated for the party dying by the person that was possibly the key to it happening, ie being 10 miles ahead of everyone and bring the horde streaming back to the party, then you just shrug, add them to the list of never again and go on your way

[esoitl]

Orrrrr... you could just let the manasponge learn the hard way that he is a terrible player by letting him die, sliding in the 'sorry you were out of range' excuse and taking him to a shrine.

If a group is in over their heads it will cost the Cleric a bunch. Normally however if you run content that is suitable for the group, it costs the Cleric little and often the melee types more in repair bills. My Cleric MAKES money, not the other way around and yes, I have been in those situations where someone decides a group of level 4 characters can run Delera's Tomb elite without a Rogue. I let the stupid ones go through the trap, res at the shrine and try it again before I release and tell them that if we're stuck here the rest of the dungeon is a hopeless mess and I won't pay for your stupidity. Normally I'm quite nice about it all and will throw what resources I see fit into a group. Sometimes that means a fair chunk of cash, but most often not.

Some tips:
1) Stay away from the groups labelled 'POP 9-10 Elite, need guide' - that's a sure fire way of saying 'I read on the forums that 9-10's can level up quickly in Gianthold so lets do Elite to get the most XP possible.' Bad idea.
2) Know the quest yourself if possible. Know what you're getting into and if you don't think the group is ready or of the right make-up, let people know.
3) If you see a manasponge starting to zerg simply type in that your not zerging so if they are expecting a heal, make sure they are in range.
4) If you start thinking you will need resources let the group know. Keep a tally of what you use and even if you have only used 3 of your 6 wands but the group is sponging just tell them what you've used and how much it cost and say you're down to the end. No donations = no healing.

Often groups can run without a Cleric by playing smart. With a Cleric it should be relatively easy if the group is running something appropriate.

[Ollathir]

Yeah, 1 res scroll vs. spamming heal scrolls for hard heads works better every time.

[Enochroot]

Yeah, 1 res scroll vs. spamming heal scrolls for hard heads works better every time.

Why waste the res scroll?

[DoctorWhofan]

I play 8 clerics on one server. yes 8. the more clerics you have, the more expensive it gets. Because it take only one bad PuG to destroy your supplies. We vets have a cushion of sorts now because whe have saved up alot of cash, knowthe game well enough, know our server well enough, to avoid major catastophes.

New players do not, and often spend almost all their money on supplies because of a few bad PuGs.

As for limiting you playing to your friends, that's not much of a PuG is it? I never play anon and often have several tells before I completely log into the game! My playstyle and the sheer amount of clerics causes me to never have alot of fundage. That's ok. I spend alot of therest on new players anyways. But that's just me.

New players are still learning thegame and their reaction time isn't the best, yet. Nor do they have funds to buy 16 Cure wands, 200 Heal scrolls, 100 raise dead and so on. Remember, they also need to have gear! +6 WIS doesn't drop alot if you are new and only play for 10 hours a week.

hen I find a new player playing a cleric, and s/he is ok with it, we have a training session in a quest, demostrating how to be a cleric. Yeah, I do teach them to be healers first. Once they get th ang of that, they can move into combat casting and battle clericing. Right now they often hesitate on healing and mana conservation isn't done (I blame other MMOs for that!)