TWF Sorc?

[Gol]

Has this ever been done before? Just curious, really. I have an old Arcane Psycho wizard I build a year or so ago, but he just doesn't have anything going for him. Two-handed fighting is a bit gimp especially without extra feats or a 40+ strength to throw at it. I won't be leveling him to 20 after the cap goes up. So, I wanted to replace him with a more casting-oriented TWF melee-caster. I'll max Cha and start with 15 Dex, but the rest is a bit up in the air. At any rate, here's what I came up with and a bit about why.

The first TWF feat is no big deal. Imp TWF is extra attacks, as is Grtr TWF. IMO, that means GTWF or go home. However, for casters, the BAB requirement is hard. Really hard. Sorc/Wiz 20 only finish with 10 BAB, and they get that on their 20th level. So, in order to get GTWF at all, they need to take 2 levels of another full BAB class and get a bonus feat at level 20. Fighter is just about the only way I know to do this, so that works for me. Sorc 18 / Fighter 2 is the obvious choice, but I'm tempted to do Sorc 18 / X 1 / Fighter 1, with the other splash being Barb/Paladin/Ranger of some sort. Something worth discussing I guess.

But what Race?

Any front-line caster stands a LOT to gain by being Warforged. And I'm going to be missing 2 caster levels for spell penetration anyway, so missing a point or 2 off the DCs won't be the end of the world. Elves get the yummy Rapier bonuses, but I'm too poor to ever afford the high-end rapiers (WoP, Banishing, etc). Drow get the Cha boost to help the DCs try to make up for the lost Spell Pen.

Anyway, thoughts, ideas, and previous builds are welcome. Just wondering if somebody was already heading down this path.

[Desteria]

Has this ever been done before? Just curious, really. I have an old Arcane Psycho wizard I build a year or so ago, but he just doesn't have anything going for him. Two-handed fighting is a bit gimp especially without extra feats or a 40+ strength to throw at it. I won't be leveling him to 20 after the cap goes up. So, I wanted to replace him with a more casting-oriented TWF melee-caster. I'll max Cha and start with 15 Dex, but the rest is a bit up in the air. At any rate, here's what I came up with and a bit about why.

The first TWF feat is no big deal. Imp TWF is extra attacks, as is Grtr TWF. IMO, that means GTWF or go home. However, for casters, the BAB requirement is hard. Really hard. Sorc/Wiz 20 only finish with 10 BAB, and they get that on their 20th level. So, in order to get GTWF at all, they need to take 2 levels of another full BAB class and get a bonus feat at level 20. Fighter is just about the only way I know to do this, so that works for me. Sorc 18 / Fighter 2 is the obvious choice, but I'm tempted to do Sorc 18 / X 1 / Fighter 1, with the other splash being Barb/Paladin/Ranger of some sort. Something worth discussing I guess.

But what Race?

Any front-line caster stands a LOT to gain by being Warforged. And I'm going to be missing 2 caster levels for spell penetration anyway, so missing a point or 2 off the DCs won't be the end of the world. Elves get the yummy Rapier bonuses, but I'm too poor to ever afford the high-end rapiers (WoP, Banishing, etc). Drow get the Cha boost to help the DCs try to make up for the lost Spell Pen.

Anyway, thoughts, ideas, and previous builds are welcome. Just wondering if somebody was already heading down this path.

Where as this is Doable as a sorc this would work MUCH better as a Wizzard....

GTWF is great but getting ITWF is the key point where TWF really becomes worth it, also loseing caster levels for BAB levels is less painfull to a wizzard who gets more spells memorized sooner, and the bonus feats will alow you to stay a strong caster while getting the feats meeded to efectivly TWF, also makes your castign stat one that goves you extra skill points for skilsl that help a guy in melle where beign triped is more of an issue.

A WF wiz TWF has a lot of possibilities.... ALSO you could concivabel take 3 full BAB levels that way and still get 9th level spells... why could this matter you ask WELL you could make them something like 2 ranegr and 1 fighter, get the bonus feats form ranger that a fighter woudl get and get 1 favored with +3 damage adn sprint bost and fighter haste bost, btu lose ftr str form fighter 2...


Any way Doable as a sorc BUT imo works much better as a WF Wiz.

[Aspenor]

I have one....he's dex based though, not necessarily uber but def very fun to play.

[Gol]

The issue with Wizard (for me) is that the PrEs they've named are completely unappealing to me (Pale Master, Wild Mage, and Archmage). I totally understand the WF thing, though - my Arcane Psycho is/was Warforged. However, splashing a third level doesn't really help what I have in mind. I want access to the tier 3 PrEs and that third splash level cuts those out.

I want Sorc for the faster casting, more SP, and Elemental Specialist PrEs. The feats are tight, of course, but 2 levels of Fighter take care of 2 of the 3 TWF feats. You're really only 1 feat behind a pure Sorc.

Asp, do you mind posting/linking yours? I'm curious.

[Electric_Pulses]

as previously stated this concept works alot better using wizx instead of sorcery cuz a wiz is simply more versatile

as for race it depends on exactly you want to get ou of this build, a more solo friendly build wld involve being wf or possibly halfling (w/ dm feats). the halfling version might be harder to do but if you can get a high halfling might be the way to go instead of wf for solo build

also the op said bout elfs getting rapier enhancements... drows get those enhancements as well, so if you wanted a build that wld still have a good dc and be able to fully handle the caster spot in a grp drow wld be a good race to choose

good luck with your build, post how it turns out and what race/classes you went if you go through with this

[maddmatt70]

There are several sorc twf build posted here in the sorc forums. The builds primary level compositions are either 12 sorc 8 something else or 18 sorc 2 something else. The two most mentioned for 18 sorc something else are 18 sorc 2 monk for an acish build or 18 sorc with at least 1 fighter level taken at level 20 for gtwf. My recommendation is 18 sorc 1 barbarian 1 fighter personally unless you really feel you need the second fighter feat...

[Lithic]

I'd be hesitant about making a 2 weapon fighter with no chance of getting GTWF until lvl 21. For DPS at least, though for vorpals/wounders/'effects it could be well worth it.

[Desteria]

I'd be hesitant about making a 2 weapon fighter with no chance of getting GTWF until lvl 21. For DPS at least, though for vorpals/wounders/'effects it could be well worth it.

He would get GTW at level 20

18 sorc for +9bab then 2 fighter for 2 mroe 11 BaB and a bonus feat at level 20 taht can be GTWF.

[EinarMal]

If you want to cast DC based spells and put your level ups into charisma it is going to be tricky. The worst part is your to-hit is going to be low to the point you might struggle without throwing out mass holds.

(Note I am assuming that by level 20 you can get +3 tomes pretty easily as they should drop as random chest loot)
Warforged Sorc 18/Fighter2

Str 14 (26=14 +1 Enh. +3 Tome +6 Item +2 GS)
Dex 15 (17=15 +2 Tome)
Con 17 (28=17 +2 Enh. +3 Tome +6 Item)
Int 8 8
Wis 6 6
Cha 14 (32=14 +5 Levels +3 Enh. +2 Tome +6 Item +2 GS)

Feats:
1-Toughness
2-(FB)TWF
3-Extend or Heighten or Empower
6-Maximize
9-Empower or Heighten or Extend
12-ITWF
15-IC Piercing
18-Quicken
20-(FB)GTWF

To Hit:
BAB +11
Weapon +5
Str +8
Haste +1
GH +4
TWF -2
+27 (or +36 when using divine power clickies)

My 2cp is you should really wait to delete your current two handed build. They are in the process of re-balancing the styles and I think you will be dissapointed in the end on DPS output of the TWF build versus the two handed one.

I believe that with the GTHF and the new warforged line that you will see two handers make a come back. Even against one target you still get glancing blows, that could mean that you could land wounding (for example) a decent percentage two times per hit for example.

My guess is thought that you started with low charisma on the orignal build. So that might be the main issue now since you cannot use any DC based spells.

The other option is to put all your level ups in strength and take power attack as well. I've to think though unless you are planning on trying to keep divine power up all the time via clickies and have a Bard running with you most of the time power attack isn't going to be usable much of the time at high levels.

[maddmatt70]

Divine power clickies will remedy to - hit maladies.. I have 27 divine power clickies on my wf battlish sorc..

[EinarMal]

Divine power clickies will remedy to - hit maladies.. I have 27 divine power clickies on my wf battlish sorc..

They definitely help but it can still get pretty low with TWF + Power Attack.

To Hit:
BAB +11
Weapon +5
Str +8
Haste +1
GH +4
TWF -2
PA -5
+22 (or +31 when using divine power clickies)

If you move around at all then you are looking at +18/+27 to hit. Not the greatest.

Power Attack is pretty marginal on a build like this without really high strength, or some other way of boosting to-hit.

[Gol]

Here's what I had in mind, honestly. TWF with Rapier/SS combos.

Drow Sorc 18 / Fighter 2

Stats
Str 8 (0) + 6 item + 2 rage + 2 tome = 18
Dex 18 (10) + 2 enh + 2 tome + 6 item = 28
Con 12 (6) + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 rage = 22
Int 10 (0) + 2 tome = 12
Wis 8 (0) = 8
Cha 20 (16) + 3 tome + 3 enh + 5 levels + 6 item = 37

Feats
1 (Fighter) Finesse
1 Toughness
3 TWF
6 Extend
9 Empower
12 Imp TWF
15 Heighten
18 Force of Personality
20 (Fighter) Grtr TWF

12 skill points = 3/level, 2 in UMD, 1 in Diplo.

I could do human for another feat if it was needed, but I'd lose out on the +attack enhancements. /shrug

[Aspenor]

Just curious, but why have the charisma so high for a weapon-user? Heck, why worry with so many CL? DDO won't be able to give us the "good" high level spells anyway, and if you're planning on doing more fighting than casting the charisma is wasted. Maybe you're going for something other than I imagined, however.

My twf sorc is a 10sorc/4pali/2rogue, will probably be a 13/5/2 or so at 20. Maybe even a 12/6/2 or 12/5/3 if I can't find a good spell to take. I use all my spell points for buffs really, dual wield puncturers and vorpals and use good rapiers/shortswords to put out the DPS I can when I have to, which isn't honestly as bad as you'd think.

IIRC stats went something like this at start:
14 str
17 dex
12 con
10 int
8 wis
17 cha

Feats currently: Extend Spell, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Toughness, ITWF, will take GTWF and possibly drop extend @ 20 for power attack.

and in hindsight, i'd have dropped 2 charisma for 1 dex and 2 str, but I don't feel like rerolling I end up having enough SP to buff (myself) for a quest, keep up the haste and I use DP clickies when I need that boost to-hit. the saves on the pali/sorc combo are just plain sick, with GH (up all the time) posting up ranging from 28-36.

When I can take more levels I know I want GH, but I'm not finding any good high level buffs after that. I want 5 pali for the first tier of divine might, and I wouldn't mind taking another rogue level to shore up my open lock skill (I don't do traps, just UMD and pick). I use divine favor for a damage boost as well.

[vainangel]

I think at lvl 6 you should get Force of Personality

[Gol]

Just curious, but why have the charisma so high for a weapon-user? Heck, why worry with so many CL? DDO won't be able to give us the "good" high level spells anyway, and if you're planning on doing more fighting than casting the charisma is wasted. Maybe you're going for something other than I imagined, however.

Yeah, I'm looking to stay more of a primary caster. I have a lot of personal experience with hybrid builds (as I'm sure you know) and have gone through the pains of leveling them in pugs. I want to be able to nuke and insta-kill like a standard sorc, but break out stat damagers for non-red named mobs with high SR.

I may try to do something else, though. Perhaps Pal 2 / Monk 2? Pal 2 / Rog 2? Either way, overcoming SR is a lost cause at that point. I'm not entirely sure I'm willing to go there. I'd also like to keep my options open for tier 3 PrEs.

I also need a way to fit in Improved Crit, ugh...

[Aspenor]

I also need a way to fit in Improved Crit, ugh...

ohhh yeah, i have IC in there somewhere, I may have missed a feat or something.

[Aerendil]

Sadly, TWF Sorc would be a whole lot more viable in a PnP setting with Red Dragon Disciple, or Eldritch Knight (the latter allowing you to get a great BAB advancement and only give up 1 Sorc casting level).

Ahh well. We can dream


Starting stats look good, though. Good luck

[Gol]

Yeah, I was hoping for EK on my Arcane Psycho, honestly. So much for that idea.

At any rate, I'm going to wait to see the details of the Sorc PrEs before I commit to anything. I also need to collect the +2 tomes. I burnt up what I had on my last reroll that's up to 7.2 now (I level slow).

[maddmatt70]

Yeah, I was hoping for EK on my Arcane Psycho, honestly. So much for that idea.

At any rate, I'm going to wait to see the details of the Sorc PrEs before I commit to anything. I also need to collect the +2 tomes. I burnt up what I had on my last reroll that's up to 7.2 now (I level slow).

With the information they released in the last podcast regarding what the prestige enhancements for sorcerer and wizard will be it looks like from a prestige enhancement standpoint the pale master for wizards is the closest thing to a battle arcane prestige class. The sorceror prestige enhancements (the 4 elements) looks like they are catered toward evokers...

[EinarMal]

Here's what I had in mind, honestly. TWF with Rapier/SS combos.

Drow Sorc 18 / Fighter 2

Stats
Str 8 (0) + 6 item + 2 rage + 2 tome = 18
Dex 18 (10) + 2 enh + 2 tome + 6 item = 28
Con 12 (6) + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 rage = 22
Int 10 (0) + 2 tome = 12
Wis 8 (0) = 8
Cha 20 (16) + 3 tome + 3 enh + 5 levels + 6 item = 37

Feats
1 (Fighter) Finesse
1 Toughness
3 TWF
6 Extend
9 Empower
12 Imp TWF
15 Heighten
18 Force of Personality
20 (Fighter) Grtr TWF

12 skill points = 3/level, 2 in UMD, 1 in Diplo.

I could do human for another feat if it was needed, but I'd lose out on the +attack enhancements. /shrug

I do not get the dex build honestly, to me the only time that makes any sense is Rogue, Evasion, or AC.

If you go more balanced you don't need weapon finesse and you can then fit in IC Piercing.

Go instead....
Str 15 (26=15 +2 Tome +1 Enh. +6 Item +2 Rage)
Dex 16 (26=16 +2 Tome +2 Enh. +6 Item)
Con 12 (22=12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 18 (35=18 +5 Levels +3 Tome +3 Enh. +6 Item)

You lose -1DC and -1 to-hit, but gain +4 damage per swing and a feat to spend however you want.

I still think though you are really going to miss being a warforged on a build like this.