non self-sufficiency

[Aranticus]

so there is no shroud to run and i went did other stuff. joined 2 groups 1 after another

group 1, monastery. 1 clr, 2 ftr, 1 mnk, 1 pal, 1 sorc. the mnk is a new roll and the other ftr is a 1st toon. throughout the quest, the mnk was zerging ahead and the group had to rush to save his behind. absolutely no ac nor had any pots at all. the fighter was wielding 2 weapons and all the while getting beat up by the mobs and again no pots. when i asked them what gear they were using, the mnk when on the defense. he said he did not had the ac as he were still lacking gear, namely no raiment. more importantly, when the fighter pulled a prot +5, he asked him immediately for it. problem is the fighter need it too. dps wise the other melees really suck, we had 140 kills total, me and the sorc accounted for 115

in my 2nd run, i was with a vod group. 3 players consistently needed remove curse. again unprepared. seriously on all my melee toons, i have at least 200 csw, 200 haste, 100 each of less restore, curse, disease, poison and blindness. my squishies carry 1/2 of them, and use wands if applicable

it doesnt really need alot of plat to get prepared, each stack is abt 8k pp. any one leveling up to L14-16 would have accumulated 100k or so. they also drop often in chests as well. needless to say, these people are now on the LIST

[Quanefel]

I guess some people just do not have your mad uber skills? O.o

[Leyoni]

so there is no shroud to run and i went did other stuff. joined 2 groups 1 after another

group 1, monastery. 1 clr, 2 ftr, 1 mnk, 1 pal, 1 sorc. the mnk is a new roll and the other ftr is a 1st toon. throughout the quest, the mnk was zerging ahead and the group had to rush to save his behind. absolutely no ac nor had any pots at all. the fighter was wielding 2 weapons and all the while getting beat up by the mobs and again no pots. when i asked them what gear they were using, the mnk when on the defense. he said he did not had the ac as he were still lacking gear, namely no raiment. more importantly, when the fighter pulled a prot +5, he asked him immediately for it. problem is the fighter need it too. dps wise the other melees really suck, we had 140 kills total, me and the sorc accounted for 115

in my 2nd run, i was with a vod group. 3 players consistently needed remove curse. again unprepared. seriously on all my melee toons, i have at least 200 csw, 200 haste, 100 each of less restore, curse, disease, poison and blindness. my squishies carry 1/2 of them, and use wands if applicable

it doesnt really need alot of plat to get prepared, each stack is abt 8k pp. any one leveling up to L14-16 would have accumulated 100k or so. they also drop often in chests as well. needless to say, these people are now on the LIST

Question number one: Did you complete the quests? If so then shut the **** up.

Question number two: In your first run were you one of the melees? Your DPS must have sucked too if the sorc had to do all that killing. OTOH, I've noticed that there are a lot of quests where arcanes lead the melees in kill count by huge amounts. Again, did you complete the quests? If so then again shut the **** up.

Ranting on the forum isn't going to cause anyone to change their in-game habits. And, frankly, who cares if they are on your LIST or not? When you PUG you get what you get.

Grow up and get used to that idea -- or don't PUG.

OTOH, put enough people on the LIST and you won't need to worry about it.

[Aranticus]

In your first run were you one of the melees? Your DPS must have sucked too if the sorc had to do all that killing. OTOH, I've noticed that there are a lot of quests where arcanes lead the melees in kill count by huge amounts.

it seem that reading is a forgotten skill

i'd just love to see u lead a group of them into a raid and you're playing a cleric

[BurningDownTheHouse]

seriously on all my melee toons, i have at least 200 csw, 200 haste, 100 each of less restore, curse, disease, poison and blindness. my squishies carry 1/2 of them, and use wands if applicable

I find that having poison, disease and blindes immunity items is much more eficient, saves room in your backpack and saves plat...

Furthermore, carying just one stack of csw and haste should be enough for any ONE quest, you can replentish later, and again, save some room.

Carrying both pots and wands of the same type is againg ineficient, if you can use wands carry those, its cheaper.

Self sufficency is even cheaper than you say, no reason for people not to try and strive for it.

[Deval]

it seem that reading is a forgotten skill

i'd just love to see u lead a group of them into a raid and you're playing a cleric

Cleric = healer, remover of curses, diseases, etc etc.

Build a bridge or dont run a cleric.

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

[Aranticus]

Cleric = healer, remover of curses, diseases, etc etc.

Build a bridge or dont run a cleric.

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

this has actually being done. you can check out the achievement or various server forums for all <insert class> raids

[Mhykke]

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

Actually, all clerics are usually the easiest completions around.

[captain1z]

I never understood why some clerics/party members chase after those who zerg and are getting killed.

I usually figure if you run ahead, you can handle it and if you cant..... I ll grab your stone when I can get to it.

A few times Ive been the one zerging most of the time Im fine but now and then Ive gotten in over my head and either died or did a reality check and stuck with the group.

Whether its me or someone else, you zerg, and you are responsible for you. If you cant handle that, stick with the group or see the inside of a backpack for a while.

[seldarin]

Cleric = healer, remover of curses, diseases, etc etc.

Build a bridge or dont run a cleric.

Lets see ya finish a raid without tanks!

LMAO, line one of you post is friggin hilarious mate. You are so narrowminded in your approach it is appalling.

Rule of thumb if you see dorf cleric with a ftr lvl or pally lvl, chances are it indicates melee cleric, or some are specced for bb etc. A lot of clerics run with the healing mitigation idea, ie maxxed/empowered bbs equals lots of dmg, mobs killed quicker, less healing involved. If you think that clerics are you walking potion store, then by all means dont run with mine, cos you will be sorely lacking in that regard and will probably wind up dead. More than happy to complete a quest without your tank if that is your mentality!

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Actually, all clerics are usually the easiest completions around.

Wouldn't go that far, THE esiest is a tried and tested pigouen holed group makeup.
That said, there is very little an all cleric group can't acomplish.

[Leyoni]

it seem that reading is a forgotten skill

i'd just love to see u lead a group of them into a raid and you're playing a cleric

Let's see how well I read shall we?

so there is no shroud to run and i went did other stuff. joined 2 groups 1 after another

group 1, monastery. 1 clr, 2 ftr, 1 mnk, 1 pal, 1 sorc. the mnk is a new roll and the other ftr is a 1st toon. throughout the quest, the mnk was zerging ahead and the group had to rush to save his behind. absolutely no ac nor had any pots at all. the fighter was wielding 2 weapons and all the while getting beat up by the mobs and again no pots. when i asked them what gear they were using, the mnk when on the defense. he said he did not had the ac as he were still lacking gear, namely no raiment. more importantly, when the fighter pulled a prot +5, he asked him immediately for it. problem is the fighter need it too. dps wise the other melees really suck, we had 140 kills total, me and the sorc accounted for 115

in my 2nd run, i was with a vod group. 3 players consistently needed remove curse. again unprepared. seriously on all my melee toons, i have at least 200 csw, 200 haste, 100 each of less restore, curse, disease, poison and blindness. my squishies carry 1/2 of them, and use wands if applicable

it doesnt really need alot of plat to get prepared, each stack is abt 8k pp. any one leveling up to L14-16 would have accumulated 100k or so. they also drop often in chests as well. needless to say, these people are now on the LIST

Here's your original post with a section highlighted. Will you please identify where in the post you tell us what character you played? You see, I can't find it there at all. But, the part I've highlighted talks about the "other ftr" leading us to believe that you are playing a fighter (there were 2 of them according to your post and "the other ftr is a 1st toon."

So, I guess I read well enough. Maybe you don't write so well?

And, I notice you never answer the question -- did you complete the quests? I'm betting the answer is yes, otherwise you would have included the failure in your rant.

Lastly, what is this about leading groups as a cleric? Didn't you post, "joined 2 groups 1 ater another" meaning you were not leading anything -- just a hanger on in a PUG.

So you have a self-sufficient fighter who can't provide enough DPS to out kill-count the sorcerer in the first quest and you need to spare some of your precious stash of remove curse pots to help less experienced players (in a PUG no less, who would have figured that to have people who aren't always the most experienced in the game?).

When I run my clerics (and I have none that are high level, I've only started them because I know there is a need for clerics) I don't whine about healing or removing curse or doing whatever else it takes to help the group. I don't worry, regardless of the character I'm playing, if the sorcerers are leading the kill count. I really don't care so long as the monsters are dying.

When I play Leyoni I often have the chance to lead in kills. FoD, FW, PK -- these tend to have that effect. It isn't a drain on the cleric unless I'm indiscriminant and toss out high damage spells when I shouldn't. So, your little taunt at the end regarding clerics leading parties is just a sign of your immaturity and failure to deal with the real issues.

A. You have a fetish about self sufficiency that you think everyone ought to adopt.
B. You have a fighter that can't beat sorcerers in kill count and it upsets you.
C. You completed two quests with a bit more effort than you were willing to put into them because you joined 2 PUGs.

Like I said before -- grow up.

[Leyoni]

LMAO, line one of you post is friggin hilarious mate. You are so narrowminded in your approach it is appalling.

Rule of thumb if you see dorf cleric with a ftr lvl or pally lvl, chances are it indicates melee cleric, or some are specced for bb etc. A lot of clerics run with the healing mitigation idea, ie maxxed/empowered bbs equals lots of dmg, mobs killed quicker, less healing involved. If you think that clerics are you walking potion store, then by all means dont run with mine, cos you will be sorely lacking in that regard and will probably wind up dead. More than happy to complete a quest without your tank if that is your mentality!

Clerics have become what DDO and Turbine development have made them to be. Some people have the notion that clerics should be primarily healers. It seems a waste to have such ability in a group member and have that player so self-centered that they cannot use the skills for the good of the group.

Having said that, healing mitigation (as you put it) has legitimacy. Any cleric that is purely a healbot is missing out on abilities that would help the entire party and are equally self-centered in that they are not using all of the class ability for the benefit of the entire party.

The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need. The selfishness of the "dorf cleric" that brings the attitude "you will be sorely lacking in that regard and probably wind up dead" is what give battle clerics a bad reputation. It usually translates like this: battle cleric = bad cleric. Probably don't want to be running in groups with people that are that self-centered.

DDO is a group game. Each character needs to contribute to the group. In the case of clerics that means being both willing and able to heal along with whatever other skills they possess.

[Aranticus]

Let's see how well I read shall we?

group 1, monastery. 1 clr, 2 ftr, 1 mnk, 1 pal, 1 sorc. the mnk is a new roll and the other ftr is a 1st toon. throughout the quest, the mnk was zerging ahead and the group had to rush to save his behind. absolutely no ac nor had any pots at all. the fighter was wielding 2 weapons and all the while getting beat up by the mobs and again no pots. when i asked them what gear they were using, the mnk when on the defense. he said he did not had the ac as he were still lacking gear, namely no raiment. more importantly, when the fighter pulled a prot +5, he asked him immediately for it. problem is the fighter need it too. dps wise the other melees really suck, we had 140 kills total, me and the sorc accounted for 115

i'm sorry you dun read well enough

And, I notice you never answer the question -- did you complete the quests? I'm betting the answer is yes, otherwise you would have included the failure in your rant.

i'd just love to see u lead a group of them into a raid and you're playing a cleric

i'm sure your way of a quest completion is the cleric use 1000 scrolls and 2000 pots to keep the party up all the way to the end

Lastly, what is this about leading groups as a cleric? Didn't you post, "joined 2 groups 1 ater another" meaning you were not leading anything -- just a hanger on in a PUG.

how many groups have you lead? as the lead you want to ensure quest completion so everyone is happy. you also want to ensure the least amount of resources used by the group in total. a group of sponges can sure complete a quest but at what cost? if you play a cleric, you will know what i mean. however, it seems that you are lacking in empathy

So you have a self-sufficient fighter who can't provide enough DPS to out kill-count the sorcerer in the first quest and you need to spare some of your precious stash of remove curse pots to help less experienced players (in a PUG no less, who would have figured that to have people who aren't always the most experienced in the game?).

Khyber Top 40 Melees

When I run my clerics (and I have none that are high level, I've only started them because I know there is a need for clerics) I don't whine about healing or removing curse or doing whatever else it takes to help the group. I don't worry, regardless of the character I'm playing, if the sorcerers are leading the kill count. I really don't care so long as the monsters are dying.

run vod as a healer before you comment please

When I play Leyoni I often have the chance to lead in kills. FoD, FW, PK -- these tend to have that effect. It isn't a drain on the cleric unless I'm indiscriminant and toss out high damage spells when I shouldn't. So, your little taunt at the end regarding clerics leading parties is just a sign of your immaturity and failure to deal with the real issues.

A. You have a fetish about self sufficiency that you think everyone ought to adopt.
B. You have a fighter that can't beat sorcerers in kill count and it upsets you.
C. You completed two quests with a bit more effort than you were willing to put into them because you joined 2 PUGs.

Like I said before -- grow up.

A. everyone should have some degree of self sufficiency, this is the general perception in ddo. these players have ZERP self sufficiency

B. i'm not concerned about who had more kills, in fact i was top in kills, not the caster

C. play your cleric up at the top level and learn to empathise with them. i donated some plat to the cleric in addition to using my own pots

[DoctorWhofan]

Actually, all clerics are usually the easiest completions around.

Wouldn't go that far, THE esiest is a tried and tested pigouen holed group makeup.
That said, there is very little an all cleric group can't acomplish.

THis is why (err, one of the reasons) I have 8 clerics.

[Aranticus]

The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need. The selfishness of the "dorf cleric" that brings the attitude "you will be sorely lacking in that regard and probably wind up dead" is what give battle clerics a bad reputation. It usually translates like this: battle cleric = bad cleric. Probably don't want to be running in groups with people that are that self-centered.

run as a cleric with melees as your main damage dealers in "running with devils" and tell us how you feel after that

there is a time and place for certain things. like what you mentioned, a good and skilled cleric will perform either function with ease. there are quests where 1 tactic is better than others. take ritual for example. BB do not work well there due to the archers having evasion, gtr command is much better as the gnolls have poor will saves

in rainbow, banishment is the choice of spells due to the high HP of the mobs and the non-availability of shrines (only 1 and max emp bb cost alot of sp). in dust the cleric will be destructing as AOEs will kill the spiders. in coalesence, melees can get the trogs faster and cheaper than destruction or bb or banish

these are some of the considerations one has to make playing a good and skilled cleric. unfortunately, you lack the experience to fully comment on playing one

[Leyoni]

I see that I missed the "me" in the final like regarding the socerer killing. Apologies. I guess I need to go back to school for reading lessons as well.

And, I notice you still fail to answer the question regarding completion. But now I have other questions. You and the sorcerer together had 115 kills, the others together only 35. So what was your share? Why did you need to draw the sorcerer into the discussion? Is it possible that the other fighter and the sorcerer had 100 kills? I see you posted that you had the top kills but I'm wondering how truthful that is given your initial post. But, it is really irrelevent isn't it? If you completed the quest then what difference does it make who had the most kills.

Let me repeat myself. You were in two pick up groups. You get what you get. Don't like it, don't play in PUGs. Complaining won't change anything.

You shouldn't engage in guess work as you are not equipped for the task. As with other parts of your posts it is an effort at exaggeration that has no bearing on the important points of the discussion. It is similar to your posting a link about top melees. There is nothing valid about the listing other than it is the opinion of the people who posted. It doesn't make you special, just egotistical and arrogant.

You quote me on what a good cleric is all about and then still rant. You just like to read yourself in print don't you? When you're all done you agree that a cleric does what is required in the group if it is a good cleric. What part of my post makes you think that different tactics in different quests isn't appropriate? Once more it is you that has trouble reading I suppose since this is what I said, "The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need."

The real problem here is that you have a fetish that you can't let go of. Self sufficiency does not hurt any one, but it is not such an issue that it merits your level of crying over it. If it is that important to you then you need to not join PUGs. PUGs are a mess. You get what you get. Sometimes it is good. Sometimes it is bad. That is what makes them fun. If you can't deal with that then don't play in them.

[CrimsonEagle]

run as a cleric with melees as your main damage dealers in "running with devils" and tell us how you feel after that

there is a time and place for certain things. like what you mentioned, a good and skilled cleric will perform either function with ease. there are quests where 1 tactic is better than others. take ritual for example. BB do not work well there due to the archers having evasion, gtr command is much better as the gnolls have poor will saves

in rainbow, banishment is the choice of spells due to the high HP of the mobs and the non-availability of shrines (only 1 and max emp bb cost alot of sp). in dust the cleric will be destructing as AOEs will kill the spiders. in coalesence, melees can get the trogs faster and cheaper than destruction or bb or banish

these are some of the considerations one has to make playing a good and skilled cleric. unfortunately, you lack the experience to fully comment on playing one

You mean clerics who do more than healbot? Who woulda thunk?

I have come to despise healbots. Even when I tell em not to heal me they heal me. I give up. Seems that Leoni thinks that this is all that a cleric should be and this gives him reason to not be self sufficient. Sad.

I love what you wrote. Heck...I heard the smack all the way over here.

[Leyoni]

these are some of the considerations one has to make playing a good and skilled cleric. unfortunately, you lack the experience to fully comment on playing one

You arrogant weasel! What do you know of my experience? Is it that I mentioned my current clerics are still low level? Did I neglect to mention that I deleted a high level cleric to reroll one of them? Is it necessary that I do that? Do I have to put my ego on the line with a signature listing every character I've ever had and their level when I deleted them? You put too much credence in things that are irrelevent.

I know that different skills are needed in different quests, a point you recognize. Do I need to list every quest and every best strategy? That is just stupid. It is a waste of time and electrons to do so. What is more, depending on the group make up it might not always be accurate.

You just can't stand not being right on every little point. So you find thing to poke at in order to feed your need for superiority.

But, this isn't a discussion about clerics. It is a discussion about your immaturity and inability to take what you get when you are in a pick up group. It is about your fetish concerning self sufficiency and your false assumptions about what everyone in the game should be doing.

Well, good luck with that. My guess is you are going to be disappointed a lot.

[Leyoni]

Seems that Leoni thinks that this is all that a cleric should be and this gives him reason to not be self sufficient.

This is my statement, "The good and skilled cleric is the one that performs either function with ease depending on the party composition and need."

A good cleric heals when needed. A good cleric banishes when needed. A good cleric blade barriers when needed.

What I think a cleric should be is all of these things. It is you and Aranticus and the others that are pigeon holing the clerics.

I'm just telling you all what the problem is -- clerics that refuse to heal are self-centered and useless to a group oriented game AND clerics that do nothing but heal are self-centered and useless to a group game. Neither is living up to it full potential. The good and skilled cleric fits the role needed by the group.