Human Sorc vs. Drow Sorc = ???

[Goldeneye]

Trying to decide which to roll. Here's what I'm thinking - tell me what you think!

Drow:
20 Base CHA = 1 more then Human (18+adaptability)
14 CON
leaves for 12 INT (enough points for UMD, Concentration, and Haggle)


Human: 32 pt build (I'm guessing the numbers - will have to edit when I get home)
18 CHA + 1 adaptability = 1 less then drow
17 CON
11 INT (+1 tome) = 12 INT = 1 human +3 pts = 4 skills/level so: (UMD, Conc, Haggle, maybe balance?)

Extra Feat
Human Adaptability 2 (probly into CON)
Human Skill Boosts (a-lot! of AP investment, but possible 20s +5 boost to UMD)


Is there anything else I'm missing? Basically, human would have 1 less CHA, but extra feat, and more HP? what are the other pros/cons I'm missing?

[Irongutz2000]

that about does it humans get more hp, and a extra feat. They lose out on one dc from the chars being a little lower.

Drow get SR of 11 decent at low lvl, an get to start with 20 chars.

[Noctus]

Humans also get healing amplification.
Which is handy when you are chugging Pots and Wand whipping yourself back up when the cleric is otherwise occupied or out of reach.

[Gunga]

WF Sorc. Welcome to 2007.

[Dirac]

Interesting, I just posted on this. You have most of it. Depending on how the odd/even chr works out, the human will have an extra 4 action points if the drow has +2 chr (for the +1 DC). Else, they have the same chr and the drow has an extra 6 action points.

The extra feat is huge for sorcs. I would think human is the way to go.

Edit: Unless WF, of course. That is a completely different discussion and worth considering.

[rimble]

Yeah, I still can't figure out where I land on this one. I already have a 16 Drow Sorc so I doubt I'd make another one, but anyways...

The one thing that concerns me is that although Humans have some nice Enhancements...on my Drow I've already spent ALL my Enhancements on Sorcerer things. Don't think I have a single Drow Enhancement...how would I afford Human ones?

I think this is what I have now:

Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Enerrgy Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III

I like having Enhancements in all the lines (except Force/Repair), I'm not sure I'd want to give up that flexibility...and you're already sort of obligated to take the Human Charisma Enhancement...but then HV, Improved Recovery, Racial Toughness...? It's certainly doable, I'm becoming less and less interested in the Acid/Electricity line and may set those free.

The value of the Human Feat sort of decreases over time in a weird way...at first we only had four Feats (1,3,6,9) and having one more on top of that helped noticeably. Then we had 5 Feats...and now 6...soon we'll have 7...1 more has less and less of a relative impact...

Humans have a higher Con, and could take Toughness, but I'm not sure you could afford many Enhancements on top of that.

Man I love these choices.

[Dirac]

If the drow has the extra chr, the human will have 4 more action points, taking Human Chr I instead of Sorc Chr III.

Edit: I think the extra feat is just huge, there are so many good ones at the moment: metamagics, spell pens, toughness, even mental toughness or the extra DC so your FoD is as good as the drow if you care. Rimble makes a good point about that becoming less important as the level cap goes up.

[Solmage]

Some things that come to mind:

- Drow requires a +1 tome to reach 34, human requires a +2.

- Drow requires a +2 tome to reach 38, human requires a +3

- Human spends extra APs to get +1 to cha. Considering how starved for APs a sorcerer trying to maximize damage output and spell efficiency is, it is a factor to consider for all the other human features that use APs.

- Human has a LOT more hitpoints if you take toughness, and spend the AP for adaptability II in con

- Human has human versatility, which is useful to help you invoke heal scrolls until your stats and gear allow you to do it without it. Also not bad for haggle. (Up to +5 to skills, but rather pricey AP wise)

- Human extra healing works wonders with your own heal scrolls.

- Drow is a lot easier to get a decent reflex save with than with a human, cheaper AP-wise too.

- Drow with a +3 tome can spare a good amount of APs by not choosing CHA III unless they pull a litany of the death (good luck on that one)

[gfunk]

This has been debated quite a bit in the past, but I would like to point out that it's quite common for humans to have the same DC as drow. heres why:

human gets a max of 39 charisma if he has:
18 starting
4 levels
1 human
6 item
3 exceptional shroud item
3 tome
3 sorc enhancements
1 abbot trinket
39 total

Drow gets a max of 40 charisma if he has
20 base
4 levels
6 item
3 exceptional shroud
3 tome
3 sorc enhancements
1 abbot trinket
40

That said, the Abbot trinket is very difficult to get... so much so that most people do not consider it into their calculations.

The other contentious item is the +3 tome. Most people will likely get one eventually if they grind through enough raid completions (esp shroud which drops more +3's then any other raid for end rewards). I would guess that most people would have their cha tome by 60 shroud runs (or thats my general impression from talking to people).

That means that excluding the abbot trinket, a human would commonly have 38 charisma at this point, whereas a drow would have 39 giving the same net spell dc.

The only real difference then lies in the extra human feat, and the differences in the available enhancement line.

If not considering the future lvl cap raise, and if you are the type to grind out lots of raid completions, then i would say go human.

If that many raid completions sounds like too much work, and you still want the 38charisma for spell dc, then go for drow.

[rimble]

This has been debated quite a bit in the past, but I would like to point out that it's quite common for humans to have the same DC as drow. heres why:

Yeah, I agree...who knows where things are going to end up in regards to Human/Drow even/odd splits? I'd say mentally prepare/build yourself to always be -1 DC on the Drow (which isn't true, it'll fluctuate, but let's brace ourselves for the worst case, hehe) and evaluate whether that theoretical -1 DC is worth the other Human benefits.

[Dirac]

I almost think the drow is better when the split goes the other way. Then, they have the same spell dc, but the drow has and extra 6 AP to spend.

Rimble, looking at your AP breakdown, I like the human enhancements a lot more than specializing in both types of energy. But, as you say, developments to level 20 can change all these calculations.

[Tanka]

Humans also get healing amplification.
Which is handy when you are chugging Pots and Wand whipping yourself back up when the cleric is otherwise occupied or out of reach.

rofl. A capped Sorc using wands? That's a good one.

Try no-fail UMDing Heal scrolls.

[rimble]

Try no-fail UMDing Heal scrolls.

If you could send me a pile of Heal scrolls and all the ingredients to enchant my greensteel goggles (hey, I made the goggles at least) I'll get right on that!

It's a totally valid sentiment, but it just brings up the point that every individual needs to make sure they are planning on a build that suits their play style and goals. Like gfunk said, if you can grind out +3 Tomes, the Abbot Trinket, and multiple greensteel items you're really gonna aim for something alot more different than some lazy guy like me that has only been able to stomach 3 Shroud runs.

[Mindspat]

I think Diplomacy or Concentration would be a good alternative for Haggle. Using Diplomacy is an underused ability in the game and being able to mitigate agro is extremely beneficial.

Some things that come to mind:
- Human spends extra APs to get +1 to cha. Considering how starved for APs a sorcerer trying to maximize damage output and spell efficiency is, it is a factor to consider for all the other human features that use APs.

I exclusively play a 28 point Elven Sorcerer and I have never felt starved for Action Points. If anything, it feels abundant.

[Noctus]

rofl. A capped Sorc using wands? That's a good one.

Try no-fail UMDing Heal scrolls.

There are people around who are so poor that they cant toss around heal scrolls in 100s stacks.
I even dont use Cure-Serious-Pots, but instead wandwhip myself back up with a Cure-Moderate-Wand when solo-looting the new explorer areas.

My main (and onyl capped character) only has about 100k plat.



I prefer leveling new character concepts to grinding out the last "+1 bonus to something" out of a capped character. And having to do the same quest(s) 10, 20, 30 times to accomplish that.
And i only have about 1 hour per day playtime, if you average it. So neither the will, nor the time to lootgrind myself up so much that i am able to throw massive plat at a challenge to overcome it, instead of using tactics. "Why should i think and wait forthe right moment to use the right CC spell to efficently resolve a fight, when i can drop a Firewall, throw around some DBFs and Cone of Colds, only to run out of Mana and blame the quest designer for placing too few Shrines.... Making me buy Menomic Potions to finish stuff on Elite, stupid guy...."

[Eternity25]

This has been debated quite a bit in the past, but I would like to point out that it's quite common for humans to have the same DC as drow. heres why:

human gets a max of 39 charisma if he has:
18 starting
4 levels
1 human
6 item
3 exceptional shroud item
3 tome
3 sorc enhancements
1 abbot trinket
39 total

Drow gets a max of 40 charisma if he has
20 base
4 levels
6 item
3 exceptional shroud
3 tome
3 sorc enhancements
1 abbot trinket
40

That said, the Abbot trinket is very difficult to get... so much so that most people do not consider it into their calculations.

The other contentious item is the +3 tome. Most people will likely get one eventually if they grind through enough raid completions (esp shroud which drops more +3's then any other raid for end rewards). I would guess that most people would have their cha tome by 60 shroud runs (or thats my general impression from talking to people).

That means that excluding the abbot trinket, a human would commonly have 38 charisma at this point, whereas a drow would have 39 giving the same net spell dc.

The only real difference then lies in the extra human feat, and the differences in the available enhancement line.

If not considering the future lvl cap raise, and if you are the type to grind out lots of raid completions, then i would say go human.

If that many raid completions sounds like too much work, and you still want the 38charisma for spell dc, then go for drow.

Even without the Abbout Trinket, a Human could reach 39 cha and a drow 40. However it wouldn't be permanent. There are alchemical +1 stat bonus potions from a certain collectable turn-in reward from a collecter in House D at the top of House D. You won't always be able to main the 39 cha (human) or 40 cha (drow) if using the potions but it might be useful in certain situations.

So, currently if both used the potion in addition to what you already mentioned...

human:
18 starting
4 levels
1 human
6 item
3 exceptional shroud item
3 tome
3 sorc enhancements
1 alchemical potion
1 abbot trinket
40 total

Drow gets a max of 40 charisma if he has
20 base
4 levels
6 item
3 exceptional shroud
3 tome
3 sorc enhancements
1 alchemical potion
1 abbot trinket
41

In this situation, both would have an equal dc.

[Desteria]

Human Wins in my books.

The HP diference and Extra feat win it for me...

The cha will wax and wane who is better dependign on what option we have to raise it ATM teh drow can win by one with BOTH the abbot trinket and a +3 tome, I don;t really consider abbot trinek a reallity atm, (note I'm some one who runns all top end content on elite regularly).

the HP diference is vast, the human can have 48 more just form Con, you could consider that extra feat a way to get toughness in that 18 more, toughness lets you take the enhacments for 30 more as a human, even if the drow has toughness the human can still beat them by 10 extra HP. this all based on level 16 atm, the humans HP advantace only raises with more levels.

The reality is the drows big advantage is cha for possibly higher spell DC's but the reality is atm and even lookign forward to 20, with the abbot trinket imo a none factor they have the same efective max Cha.
EVEN assuming the drow had said trinet I think I would perfer 38 cha and the extra HP and feat to the 40 cha, my sorc is human and I want more feats still, I'd cry if i had one less.....

[bobbryan2]

Humans win hands down for me.

I think drow sorcs are borderline 'bad'. There's no good justification for taking a hit to hit points, unless you want to be the squishy caster that's terrified of getting aggro... ya know.. for RP reasons.

[Noctus]

Imho both the alchemical Potion, as the abbot trinket are purely hypothetical ways in which to raise the CHA of a character.

The rest can be archieved if you put sufficient time into your character in the curent endgame. Which leaves Drow at 39 CHA and Humans at 38.

[tinyelvis]

The Drow will have better access to enhancements. As was pointed out earlier, all enhancements in a sorcerer build go to arcane buffing. I cant see how you would have any points to spend on things like boosts and toughness.

The 38 Charisma comes at a big price for humans. In addition to +3 tome (no shroud item clensing at 20) they must spend an extra enhancement on Charisma. While a Drow with a tome could actually forgo the third Charisma enhancement for a net +8 enhancement points (6+2) more to spend over a Human. Thats almost 13% more enhancement points to spend, I think this is big.

The worst choice of course is the WF (though it seems to have a lot of jump on the band wagon appeal now). If you have trouble keeping your sorcerer alive re-role as a human and take 2 levels as monk or rogue.

The Drow is still probably the best choice based on arcane capability, however, if survivability is your goal then I would have to say a Human is the way to go. Looked at objectively, the WF sorc is like the emperor with no cloths on.