Frustration: How do I survive in melee?

[Timjc86]

Quick history: I've been playing off and on since the game came out, with a big two year gap ending about five-six months ago. The classes I have greatly enjoyed playing have been rogues, rangers, and recently monks. Before trying monks most all of my characters were glass cannons of sorts. They could do plenty of damage via sneak attacks, favored enemy, what have you, but when it came time to taking blows they didn't hold up so well. I was ok with this for quite a while, until I got my characters into the shroud. Cleaving orthons and the like made me feel either like a spell point sponge (if the healers were able to keep me alive) or like a wasted group spot (if they weren't).

Then along came monks, and boy has it been fun. I have never played, nor even seen such a survivable character before. The combination of blanket immunities, high spell resistance, great AC, great saves, and improved evasion is really just silly fun. My monk's problem however is that a half-starved little girl could pack more of a punch. What a role reversal.

So essentially I am looking for suggestions and advice. I am looking for ways to make my rogue and ranger more survivable and/or ways to make my monk more dangerous. I'm also open to build suggestions for a new character, with a few requirements: I'm an evasion addict; any character I play without evasion dies, fast. I have just gotten too used to the game with evasion or improved evasion to survive without. I also don't like weapon finesse... at all. I'm not really too fond of the idea of heavy multiclassing either, although I might be persuaded to give it one more try.

[Nyvn]

More hp equals greater surviabilily.

Higher starting con, a con item, toughness, minos legion helmet, greater False life item.

+6 con item @ lvl 16 = 48hp
1 toughness = 18 hp
Minos legion helmet = 18hp
Greater False Life = 30hp
------------------------------
Total =114hp

[Zenako]

Need some specs to give useful advice beyond what has already been tossed your way...

[Thrudh]

As a rogue or ranger with low AC and low hps....

You have to move around.... always tag-team with a tank... Let the tank get aggro first, then you hit... You're contributing, doing good damage, but not getting hit back... When I play my rogue... I always wait a second or two before attacking... Make sure the tank has aggro first...

If you get aggro, diplomacy is a great skill to shed that aggro right back onto the tank...

Choose your position in combat... When tag-teaming anything that cleaves, move around until you're behind the bad guy...

Aggro management is not easy... it takes some practice... it can be done though...

[Daedalis]

Hi,
I have a fellow guildy that runs a ranger/wiz and has a standing AC of 50. He is a Tempest build, and does use oversize TWF. He does excellent DPS, and has a very survivable character. I know alot of people tend to say that AC is useless, but some AC = less hits and more surviviability. What is your UMD? you could cast blur and/or displacement on yourself for a harder chance of being hit. And as a previous person posted, HP - the more you have the longer you will go (unless your AC is like a 12). And heavy fort item, crits can be a two hit killer as well. My caster with a 14 AC and 147 HP can vouch for the value of a Heavy fort item!

but if you can post more specific information on your build(s) such as AC breakdown, HP's, etc we would be able to better help out.

Thanks,
Dae

[Varr]

The evasion/no finesse feat doenst synergize great. If you want to kick some ass, take care of your self, and have evasion.........maybe look at a 14/2 rogue/fighter halfling monster. 8 feats.......3 dms of healing (3500 hps of self and group heals), two weapon fighting, improved two weapon, greater two weapon, improved crit pierce, weapon finesse in a different order. Nasty back attacks....nasty! stats like 12 16 14 14 8 14.....get ya to 280-300 hp by level 16.

[Lithic]

Assuming you are willing to make a new character, I would think about making a monk with sneak attack. Halfling works best as they get up to +8 damage sneak attack from racial enhancements. Add to this the vision goggles for +8 more (or a +5 backstabber weapon, or goggles of intuition, or gloves of the hunter, or bracers of something give +3 to damage). Thats up to +16 damage at end game vs sneak-attack-ables without even any rogue levels. Now for some major damage, take some rogue levels. Use them to max UMD and open locks (stealth skills dont hurt either). As for the split, it depends how much monk you want. On the rogue you get 1d6 damage every odd level, and +3 to sneak damage per enhancement level.

With one level of rogue you are getting (at end game with vision goggles) 1d6+19 sneak damage, equivalent to a character with 44 more str than yours. Since monk damage is mostly worse than other melees, this should help you keep up. if you go to lvl 3, you get another 1d6, and at lvl 4 you get +3 more from the enhancement. The most I would suggest is 7 rogue/9monk, as that gets you 4d6+25.

If you want a level by level breakdown, assuming all 1d6 rolls equal to 3.5, and not counting halfling sneak damage, nor item sneak damage, you get this:


1 rogue = 6.5
2 rogue= 6.5
3 rogue= 10
4 rogue= 13
5 rogue = 16.5
6 rogue= 16.5
7 rogue= 23

So the big steps are at 1 and 7, though 3, 4 and 5 arent bad either.

[wamjratl1]

As a rogue or ranger with low AC and low hps....

You have to move around.... always tag-team with a tank... Let the tank get aggro first, then you hit... You're contributing, doing good damage, but not getting hit back... When I play my rogue... I always wait a second or two before attacking... Make sure the tank has aggro first...

If you get aggro, diplomacy is a great skill to shed that aggro right back onto the tank...

Choose your position in combat... When tag-teaming anything that cleaves, move around until you're behind the bad guy...

Aggro management is not easy... it takes some practice... it can be done though...

Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

[Venar]

If you have under 45 AC and 275 HP, stay out of melee. Take out a bow or something.

[hydra_ex]

If you have under 45 AC and 275 HP, stay out of melee. Take out a bow or something.

Then your just as useless.

On the contructive side, increase your AC and HP as much as you can. Attack form behind, jump around alot. Contribute to self healing with UMDing heal scrolls, or simply using potions. Let the 'tank' grab agro before you do. Back off when your low on hps. Give the clerics donations before you do the quest so they like you and therefore heal you more

[Hafeal]

Some great ideas.

I would respec some feats and redo your enhancements ... try some toughness etc. I am still playing my original 28 pt builds and they are fine at end game. The min/maxers are after something different from you.

Once you learn the game (which you must have, arriving at the shroud), you should have a fair idea of some feats you need to redo and how to redo your enhancement line. If not, check out the specific class sections here on the forums and find a build you like. It is not hard to mimic them even with your existing characters. 2-4 points in an ability is not a game-breaker, so keep that in mind. If you put 18 in cha for your wizard, ok, you might need re-roll.

Evasion builds are secondary fighters - they hit after the melees have made the initial rush. Being patient is a tough trait for many gamers. If you don't have it, try a pure melee build that splashes rogue or monk to get evasion.

[Leyoni]

What you want is a multiclass character combining the combat skill set of the ranger with the saving throws and armor class of the monk.

My recommendation is a Monk/Paladin/Ranger or a Monk/Ranger if you are not interested in intimidation -- a Monk/Fighter/Ranger or Monk/Ranger/Rogue if you are.

Basically it works this way: everything has 2 levels of Monk for the +1 WIS enhancement and 2 Monk feats. From there you branch off: 3 levels of Paladin for +1 CHA enhancement, the CHA saving throw bonus and +2 AC (1 for being a Paladin and 1 from enhancements), 11 levels of Ranger for the +2 DEX enhancement; the alternative is no Paladin levels and going with 14 levels of Ranger. If you want intimidate drop Paladin and go with 2 Fighter levels for access to 2 feats, intimidation skill, and +1 STR enhancement and the other 12 levels as Ranger; or take 1 Rogue level for the intimidation skill, rogue skills and UMD, then go with 13 levels of Ranger. For feats you take Combat Expertise and the feat chain for the Ranger Tempest enhancement. You use Weapon Finesse to boost your to hit numbers and fight with 2 weapons as often as possible.

With shroud items and other high end gear you can hit AC in the low 60s before any buffs and your TWF feats give you the DPS to hit deal serious damage. Typical starting stats ignore STR & CHA and focus on DEX, INT, WIS and CON. Weapon selection includes stat damagers and elemental damage/pure good/maiming (best is to have two complimentary damagers on the same weapon like wounding/puncturing or acid/pure good).

Your HP will seem low but the AC will mean you are scarcely ever getting hit. With a +6 CON item and +2 CON tome you'll have emergency lay-on hands if you go the Paladin route. Careful race selection will improve your AC (elf/drow/halfling) or your HP (warforged/dwarf).

Class sequencing is important. If you go the intimidate route you take the fighter or rogue level first. If you go the ranger/paladin route you start with a level of ranger first. Next 2 levels should be monk and after that it is up to you. The real question is, "When do you want Tempest to kick in?" If you can stand to wait on it then you round out your third class before jumping to ranger -- otherwise you go ranger until you have the Tempest enhancement, round out the third class, then switch back to ranger until level cap.

There are several sample builds based on this in the Ranger forums.

[geoffhanna]

Assuming you are willing to make a new character, I would think about making a monk with sneak attack. Halfling works best as they get up to +8 damage sneak attack from racial enhancements. Add to this the vision goggles for +8 more (or a +5 backstabber weapon, or goggles of intuition, or gloves of the hunter, or bracers of something give +3 to damage). Thats up to +16 damage at end game vs sneak-attack-ables without even any rogue levels. Now for some major damage, take some rogue levels. Use them to max UMD and open locks (stealth skills dont hurt either). As for the split, it depends how much monk you want. On the rogue you get 1d6 damage every odd level, and +3 to sneak damage per enhancement level.

With one level of rogue you are getting (at end game with vision goggles) 1d6+19 sneak damage, equivalent to a character with 44 more str than yours. Since monk damage is mostly worse than other melees, this should help you keep up. if you go to lvl 3, you get another 1d6, and at lvl 4 you get +3 more from the enhancement. The most I would suggest is 7 rogue/9monk, as that gets you 4d6+25.

If you want a level by level breakdown, assuming all 1d6 rolls equal to 3.5, and not counting halfling sneak damage, nor item sneak damage, you get this:


1 rogue = 6.5
2 rogue= 6.5
3 rogue= 10
4 rogue= 13
5 rogue = 16.5
6 rogue= 16.5
7 rogue= 23

So the big steps are at 1 and 7, though 3, 4 and 5 arent bad either.

I hate and mock people who quote entire long posts. I am risking hatred and mockitude so I can honor Lithic's posting. I have never seen this topic described as thoroughly and succinctly. Thank you.

Now I have to find a place to put this in the Compendium

[Timjc86]

Thanks for all of your replies, I have been busy the last few days and unable to check back.

As for some specifics to my characters:

Ranger:
My ranger is a human 1 rogue / 14 ranger. He has the exp to level to 16 but I am holding off currently for various reasons. I took the 1 rogue level so that I could maximize trap skills and open lock. The only situation where he has trouble standing in for a rogue is places that require some serious saves to get to an item or box. He was able to get the Horn of Agility in the Crucible on elite but only just barely and with lots of luck.

*Base stats may be one or two points off - should be close though*
Base Stats: 16 / 15 / 12 / 14 / 12 / 8 Level ups have gone into strength. I can get his AC to a 42 with barkskin (46 w/ shield clickie, 51 for 20sec with an HV boost, but I usually use those for other things). I think I'm about stuck here without some very lucky raid items. I have considered taking a few levels of fighter and could get a Daggertooth Belt or FAM for another point or two. I have considered taking CE but unless I can get to a 50ish base AC without Barkskin I would feel a bit like I'm wasting the feat. HPs are about 230-240 with Improved False Life and a Con 4 item - i could eek out a bit more here with a Con 6 item, Con 2 tome (*crosses fingers*), GFL.

I've also got a smidge of UMD, it's at a 17 base. I will have to check on Displacement/Stoneskin scrolls.

I appreciate the suggestions so far, this guy isn't as bad off as I thought. I haven't played him in a few weeks and was thinking he was a bit worse off =)



I won't post details on my rogue, I shouldn't have really mentioned him in the first place. I built him with the idea of being a heavily group dependent character. He has low con and low AC, and pretty much either has to closely watch aggro or befriend a good intimitank. It sure is a kick playing him though, I've gotta really be twitchy about it or he drops pretty fast. Good fun.


Monk:
Human 16 Monk.

Base stats: 15 / 15 / 12 / 12 / 15 / 8 three level ups have gone into Dex, one into strength. Survivability is not an issue on this guy, I'm just looking for ways to improve damage. He does have power attack, and a +6 strength item, so I guess the only thing left is to find some good weapons. I've got a # of pretty decent handwraps and tend to stick with those on trash (stuff susceptible to Stunning Fist). I have some not so hot kamas (and all the TWF feats) for straight DPS. I have really been eying Tharne's Goggles, just gotta find some people to take me through VoD however many times. I guess the obvious answer is to craft some greensteels... I'm kind of hoping to hold out for GSW Handwraps though. I just know that with my luck, the day I finally did get all the ingredients together and crafted a mineral II kama would be when the wraps would come. I'm contemplating skipping most greensteel stuff for my monk for now and just working on stuff for my ranger, except that I don't really play my ranger a whole lot anymore. I guess I might switch back more often now that my monk's capped, we'll see.


I have also been tossing around the idea of a ranger/monk or ranger/fighter/monk (mostly ranger in both cases). Maybe elf for displacement marks if I could work out all the feats. I just don't know if I feel up to farming for two icy raiments... I can't even get one yet =)
Thanks again for all your comments.

[Leyoni]

I won't post details on my rogue, I shouldn't have really mentioned him in the first place. I built him with the idea of being a heavily group dependent character. He has low con and low AC, and pretty much either has to closely watch aggro or befriend a good intimitank. It sure is a kick playing him though, I've gotta really be twitchy about it or he drops pretty fast. Good fun.

I have also been tossing around the idea of a ranger/monk or ranger/fighter/monk (mostly ranger in both cases). Maybe elf for displacement marks if I could work out all the feats. I just don't know if I feel up to farming for two icy raiments... I can't even get one yet =)
Thanks again for all your comments.

Rogues are a blast to play. I loved mine (just rebuilt him along a different build pattern). I'm looking at a high AC variation that I hope will play well.

Until you can get Icy Raiments look for a high armor robe choice. Supplement with a high protection item. At low and middle levels you'll actually be better off in mithral breastplates.

[sirgog]

I'd recommend something like Disector's build (see my sig) - go Dwarf for the huge HP boots Dwarves can get, 6 Ranger levels for Tempest, 9 or 10 Rogue levels for backstab, evasion, trapsmithing, and maybe Improved Evasion, and if you went Rog9 take a Fighter level for the extra feat.

If you do make a build like this, start with a very high Str (16 or 17, level up points here), significant Dex for 2WF feats, reasonable Con (12 +2 racial at a minimum), moderate Int (I went 14), and bottom-of-the-barrel Wis and Cha.

Disector has (without the most uber gear available, the toon is newish) 365hp - could be 420 with better gear; solid saves with evasion (Kardin's Eye or Boots of the Innocent are crucial here) and is quite survivable due to wearing Fearsome robes of Sonic Resist 20 in most places.

By scrolling Fire Shield (UMD FTW), I can mimic the benefits of Improved Evasion against the Pit Fiend. I can self-heal (UMD is too low for Heal scrolls to be reliable, however), and self-buff with Stoneskin wands too to be survivable.

[Aerendil]

Human 16 Monk.

Base stats: 15 / 15 / 12 / 12 / 15 / 8 three level ups have gone into Dex, one into strength. Survivability is not an issue on this guy, I'm just looking for ways to improve damage. He does have power attack, and a +6 strength item, so I guess the only thing left is to find some good weapons. I've got a # of pretty decent handwraps and tend to stick with those on trash (stuff susceptible to Stunning Fist). I have some not so hot kamas (and all the TWF feats) for straight DPS. I have really been eying Tharne's Goggles, just gotta find some people to take me through VoD however many times. I guess the obvious answer is to craft some greensteels... I'm kind of hoping to hold out for GSW Handwraps though. I just know that with my luck, the day I finally did get all the ingredients together and crafted a mineral II kama would be when the wraps would come. I'm contemplating skipping most greensteel stuff for my monk for now and just working on stuff for my ranger, except that I don't really play my ranger a whole lot anymore. I guess I might switch back more often now that my monk's capped, we'll see.


I have also been tossing around the idea of a ranger/monk or ranger/fighter/monk (mostly ranger in both cases). Maybe elf for displacement marks if I could work out all the feats. I just don't know if I feel up to farming for two icy raiments... I can't even get one yet =)
Thanks again for all your comments.

If you enjoy TWF, I'd imagine a monk/ranger could be quite fun. Air stance for haste + Tempest + a nicely enchanted bunch of kamas could get ugly.
Add onto that the halfling enhancements, path of the faithful hound, power attack, and spamming ki strikes every 2 seconds, and I'd wager you could do some impressive damage from an enemy's flank.
Or, for less AC but more dps, as suggested above, an elven ranger/monk/fighter would work nicely too.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Get a shield! (obviously a monk cannot do this....or at least seldom would want to)

Bring potions.

Learn to block.

Wait for someone else to get agro.

Get out of the fight and heal when you are getting your butt handed to you.

My Monk has a fearsome robe, mage armor clickies/pots. Shield clickies.

I wait a moment (and buff) before rushing into battle. And I roll out of battle and heal up when I get too badly beat up.

Similar for rogues and rangers.

You rogue should invest in the diplomacy skill and use often.

But if you are playing a melee who does not have high AC and/or HP, than agro management is the number one way to stay alive. followed closely by getting out of the fight and healing before you die.

Let the barbarian get beat on....that's what he's there for.

[ArkoHighStar]

wands and scrolls can be a rogues best friend, GH scrolls for +bonuses to hit saves and extra hp's, false life(lvl 10) wands for extra hp,shield(lvl10) for +4 AC when dual wielding, mass aid scrolls, resist(lvl11) wands,protect(lvl10) wands.

I look for these on the AH all the time


Also subtle backstabber is a must for any melee rogue, the less damage you appear to be doing the more sneak attack damage you will be getting

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Thanks for all of your replies, I have been busy the last few days and unable to check back.

As for some specifics to my characters:

Ranger:
My ranger is a human 1 rogue / 14 ranger. He has the exp to level to 16 but I am holding off currently for various reasons. I took the 1 rogue level so that I could maximize trap skills and open lock. The only situation where he has trouble standing in for a rogue is places that require some serious saves to get to an item or box. He was able to get the Horn of Agility in the Crucible on elite but only just barely and with lots of luck.

*Base stats may be one or two points off - should be close though*
Base Stats: 16 / 15 / 12 / 14 / 12 / 8 Level ups have gone into strength. I can get his AC to a 42 with barkskin (46 w/ shield clickie, 51 for 20sec with an HV boost, but I usually use those for other things). I think I'm about stuck here without some very lucky raid items. I have considered taking a few levels of fighter and could get a Daggertooth Belt or FAM for another point or two. I have considered taking CE but unless I can get to a 50ish base AC without Barkskin I would feel a bit like I'm wasting the feat. HPs are about 230-240 with Improved False Life and a Con 4 item - i could eek out a bit more here with a Con 6 item, Con 2 tome (*crosses fingers*), GFL.

I've also got a smidge of UMD, it's at a 17 base. I will have to check on Displacement/Stoneskin scrolls.

I appreciate the suggestions so far, this guy isn't as bad off as I thought. I haven't played him in a few weeks and was thinking he was a bit worse off =)



I won't post details on my rogue, I shouldn't have really mentioned him in the first place. I built him with the idea of being a heavily group dependent character. He has low con and low AC, and pretty much either has to closely watch aggro or befriend a good intimitank. It sure is a kick playing him though, I've gotta really be twitchy about it or he drops pretty fast. Good fun.


Monk:
Human 16 Monk.

Base stats: 15 / 15 / 12 / 12 / 15 / 8 three level ups have gone into Dex, one into strength. Survivability is not an issue on this guy, I'm just looking for ways to improve damage. He does have power attack, and a +6 strength item, so I guess the only thing left is to find some good weapons. I've got a # of pretty decent handwraps and tend to stick with those on trash (stuff susceptible to Stunning Fist). I have some not so hot kamas (and all the TWF feats) for straight DPS. I have really been eying Tharne's Goggles, just gotta find some people to take me through VoD however many times. I guess the obvious answer is to craft some greensteels... I'm kind of hoping to hold out for GSW Handwraps though. I just know that with my luck, the day I finally did get all the ingredients together and crafted a mineral II kama would be when the wraps would come. I'm contemplating skipping most greensteel stuff for my monk for now and just working on stuff for my ranger, except that I don't really play my ranger a whole lot anymore. I guess I might switch back more often now that my monk's capped, we'll see.


I have also been tossing around the idea of a ranger/monk or ranger/fighter/monk (mostly ranger in both cases). Maybe elf for displacement marks if I could work out all the feats. I just don't know if I feel up to farming for two icy raiments... I can't even get one yet =)
Thanks again for all your comments.

Huh?
You have lvl 16s and you asking this question? I assumed you were only playing lowbies. lol!

Agro management!

My Wiz16 melees a lot ( to save mana, or when OoM cause I was forced to caste 5 buffs per party member AND keep them hasted at all times)

I have a 37 AC and 172 HP.
I'm not squishy and I don't die! (often, or less than most....including the guys with 300+ HP)
Why? Agro management baby!
(I'm sure low DPS helps)(and all those buffs help a lot too!)
Of course my Wiz can usually fall back on spells when I get in trouble.........10 SP for a lowly Hypno can stop an army.

I two manned CC with my friend's ranger. Granted he has soloed the quest before.

I spent half the quest OoM........ran out of buffs, and potions, and he ran out of wands to heal me up.

And I still fought! Still entered melee! And got through most fights without taking any damage at all!
Amazed my friend to no end, he was always saying "how come you dont get hurt?"

Because I let him attack first. Many times I hide around a corner until he has the agro of everything in a room, then charge in and attack from behind!

(And fearsome robe may be the most overpowered thing in the game right now!)